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Icons of Evolution

Hans Blaster

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He specifically says that he's thinking of God creating through evolution.

I think you're conflating two orthogonal kinds of explanation. If a novelist writes a scene involving a poker game and gives the characters plausible poker hands, are those hands the results of the shuffle in the scene or of the novelist's choices?

I've got to admit that I don't really grok this "God creating through evolution" notion. Evolution, as understood by science, is natural process; "God" is not. If God is changing the rules of natural selection to get a specific result, that is not the natural selection studied and assembled into theory by science. It is just creating, but the hard way. (Unless that is the limit of its powers.) (I will say that I never took the Genesis creation story seriously as anything other than an "explanation" of one day of worship every seven.)
 
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sfs

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I've got to admit that I don't really grok this "God creating through evolution" notion. Evolution, as understood by science, is natural process; "God" is not. If God is changing the rules of natural selection to get a specific result, that is not the natural selection studied and assembled into theory by science. It is just creating, but the hard way.
I think your difficulty in grokking lies in thinking of God as one actor among many in the universe. In most traditional theistic understanding, all natural processes, including natural selection, are simply patterns in the way God chooses to make things. Science always describes only the patterns -- it has no test for whether there is a purpose behind them. A statistician in the previously introduced novel should conclude that poker hands reflect the natural, random process of shuffling, because if the novelist is careful, they do.
 
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sfs

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I will say that I never took the Genesis creation story seriously as anything other than an "explanation" of one day of worship every seven.)
I think it does more than that: it subverts some prevailing religious ideas of the surrounding dominant culture, including sustantially demythologizing creation, and it replaces the king or priest as the representative of divinity with humans more generally. (I'm referring to the first creation account -- the second is another beast entirely.) But all of this is off-topic for this forum.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think it does more than that: it subverts some prevailing religious ideas of the surrounding dominant culture, including sustantially demythologizing creation, and it replaces the king or priest as the representative of divinity with humans more generally. (I'm referring to the first creation account -- the second is another beast entirely.) But all of this is off-topic for this forum.

This is the problem with using 2500 year old literature as scripture -- the context is lacking. Whatever extra signals it was sending to the people of Israel after their elites returned from exile didn't have any meaning to a kid in the rural Midwest.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I think your difficulty in grokking lies in thinking of God as one actor among many in the universe.
Firstly, I would state that the "laws of nature" are not "actors", nor should it be needed to think of them as competitive actors to God. Secondly, if I try to reconstruct my "theology" of the past it would be something like: There was God, there was the natural world existing by the laws of nature, and there were humans with free will.

In the modern state of myself, I can consider or work with any hypothetical (in that I don't accept it) theological state and make conclusions about them, but some of them this site may not like. :)
In most traditional theistic understanding, all natural processes, including natural selection, are simply patterns in the way God chooses to make things.
(An aside before I address the whole statement, but this sounds distinctively pre-modern and pre-scientific in its understanding of nature. I did not grow up in that world and neither did anyone else around me. We grew up in the world of crop rotation, selective breeding, soil conservation, weather forecasting, chemical pesticides, etc. No one showing up to Mass on Sunday had talismans or shrines in their fields to appease God/spirits.)
Science always describes only the patterns -- it has no test for whether there is a purpose behind them.
And when we look at those patterns, we see things that are regular and built upon fundamental properties. When we examine NaCl crystals they always have the same structure, the same spacing, etc. We can find the same for other salt crystals (like LiF) whose properties only differ because of the numbers of protons in the atoms, and nothing else. Likewise we can continue outward and see the same for all chemicals -- bond lengths, molecular geometry, etc. all set by the deeper properties that do not vary. Or we could build outward.

So, If there are patterns chosen by the way "God chooses to make things" they are all at the deepest level. That is what we see scientifically -- consistency at the non-fundamental level. This includes the application of the same naturalistic patterns to the development of lifeforms. So I come back to my previous statement. If you posit a deity intervening in the process of biological evolution to alter the results to what would have not occurred naturally, how can we call the outcome natural? How is this position not "creationism" if you have a deity creating organisms to fit their whims? It's not the same creationism as the instantaneous appearance creations of YECism, but then neither is ID creationism (generally).

A statistician in the previously introduced novel should conclude that poker hands reflect the natural, random process of shuffling, because if the novelist is careful, they do.
It could, if the novelist bothered to generate the hands randomly, but generally if the outcome of the game matters to the plot we're going to see some distortions, but sure, you could have the statistician character say it is random whether it really is or not.
 
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sfs

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(An aside before I address the whole statement, but this sounds distinctively pre-modern and pre-scientific in its understanding of nature. I did not grow up in that world and neither did anyone else around me. We grew up in the world of crop rotation, selective breeding, soil conservation, weather forecasting, chemical pesticides, etc. No one showing up to Mass on Sunday had talismans or shrines in their fields to appease God/spirits.)
There's nothing pre-scientific about it. Scientific understanding (and practice) requires that physical phenomena follow consistent patterns, at least the great majority of the time. It doesn't require any commitment as to the reason for the patterns.

And when we look at those patterns, we see things that are regular and built upon fundamental properties. When we examine NaCl crystals they always have the same structure, the same spacing, etc. We can find the same for other salt crystals (like LiF) whose properties only differ because of the numbers of protons in the atoms, and nothing else. Likewise we can continue outward and see the same for all chemicals -- bond lengths, molecular geometry, etc. all set by the deeper properties that do not vary. Or we could build outward.
We see that things are regular and can be modeled as being made of other things that are regular.
This includes the application of the same naturalistic patterns to the development of lifeforms. So I come back to my previous statement. If you posit a deity intervening in the process of biological evolution to alter the results to what would have not occurred naturally, how can we call the outcome natural?
Since that's not what's being suggested, I don't understand the relevance of the question. What does 'occur naturally' mean? If the resulting phenomena follow the patterns that our models describe, how are two different metaphysical models for what's happening to be distinguished?
It could, if the novelist bothered to generate the hands randomly, but generally if the outcome of the game matters to the plot we're going to see some distortions
Why?
 
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Hans Blaster

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There's nothing pre-scientific about it. Scientific understanding (and practice) requires that physical phenomena follow consistent patterns, at least the great majority of the time. It doesn't require any commitment as to the reason for the patterns.
Interpreting natural phenomena as not behaving naturally sure sounds like sure sounds like supernaturalism or superstition.
We see that things are regular and can be modeled as being made of other things that are regular.
Those sound like natural phenomena. Do "supernatural" things or those subject to the whims of spirits or deities so regular?
Since that's not what's being suggested, I don't understand the relevance of the question. What does 'occur naturally' mean? If the resulting phenomena follow the patterns that our models describe, how are two different metaphysical models for what's happening to be distinguished?
Then I have no idea what you are talking about.
If the pattern of hands is relevant to some plot point (almost loses, comes from behind, etc.) it is unlikely that a true random draw used in writing the story would give the plot arc required.
 
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DennisF

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Theodosius Dobzhansky, for one. From his famous article, "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution": "It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist." There's also a recent movement to rebrand theistic evolution as 'evolutionary creationism'. In both cases, they're swimming upstream against the common usage of creationist to denote a theistic opponent of evolution.
Hans, for your education on the topic, peruse the journal articles at asa3.org but ignore the fact that ASA has turned into a Francis Collins cult. He should be indicted along with A. Fauci for medical crimes against humanity!
 
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DennisF

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What are these better arguments? All of the ones I've seen have been pretty bad. (And of course, lots of issues continue to persist despite conclusive answers -- ask any flat-earther or young-earth creationist.)
This question covers a broad range of subject-matter. The more comprehensive answer would be a library.

Back when I was in the thick of these issues - in the 1990s - I was ASA Newsletter editor and attended the ASA Annual Meetings. Back then, both evolutionary creationists (ECs) and Intelligent-Design-ers (IDers) came, including most of the major ID people, who at one time I knew - people like Michael Behe, Paul Nelson, Steve Meyer, Bill Dembski, Walter Bradley, John Wiester, and the ringleader, Phil Johnson. What these people have to say are in their books, articles, and talks. I suggest that you begin with the Steve Meyer link, where he discusses the issues with a couple of ex-MIT AI Lab people.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Hans, for your education on the topic, peruse the journal articles at asa3.org but ignore the fact that ASA has turned into a Francis Collins cult.
Why should I ignore that they are a "cult"? Nor why you think I would find interest in reading some religious journal. I wouldn't have done that even when I did believe in your god.
He should be indicted along with A. Fauci for medical crimes against humanity!
That is a delusional statement unconnected to reality. I thought you were supposed to be sophisticated or something.
 
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DennisF

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Why should I ignore that they are a "cult"? Nor why you think I would find interest in reading some religious journal. I wouldn't have done that even when I did believe in your god.
My statement was ambiguous. I am stating that ASA has turned into a Francis Collins cult, not that you are ignoring it (whether you are or not).
ASA's journal is more than a "religious journal" and it might cast some light on your own "religion".

That is a delusional statement unconnected to reality. I thought you were supposed to be sophisticated or something.
Well, if I'm not "sophisticated" then at least I am "something"!

I believe you should, for your own enlightenment, check out ASA, and in particular, the past journal (PSCF) articles, before perhaps 2005, when the quality of papers was better. That way, you would know more of which you speak.
 
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Hans Blaster

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My statement was ambiguous. I am stating that ASA has turned into a Francis Collins cult, not that you are ignoring it (whether you are or not).
I understood your claim about it being a cult. I'm just not going to ignore that claim.
ASA's journal is more than a "religious journal" and it might cast some light on your own "religion".
I haven't had a religion since I gave it up for Lent a quarter century ago.
Well, if I'm not "sophisticated" then at least I am "something"!

I believe you should, for your own enlightenment, check out ASA,
Why? It is an organization for evangelical in science. I've never been an evangelical and I never will.
and in particular, the past journal (PSCF) articles, before perhaps 2005, when the quality of papers was better. That way, you would know more of which you speak.

Seriously, I don't know why I (or frankly anyone) would need "Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith". I looked at couple issues from the last few years and looked at a few articles and come to the conclusion that like rock-n-roll, science is made worse by adding religion. What would be the point of the same, but older.
 
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