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Christianity no longer seems moral to me

2PhiloVoid

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The process of canonization of biblical texts was much more primitive than what you propose for their critique.
I thought we were discussing the "moral locus" of applied analysis to various morally questionable passages of the Bible rather than the issue of the Bible's canonization?

Are we talking passed each other here?

As for canonization, I haven't made any suggestion as yet to a process for considering how best to think of it. But if I did, I'd start by pulling my copy of The Canon Debate - Lee Martin McDonald and James A. Sanders (eds.), off of my shelf first before moving on.

I don't engage the Bible for its "usefulness." As a skeptic, I only engage the Bible if I think there's even a remote possibility that it has some truth in it, even if that truth isn't something I really want to hear.
What practical view of the Bible do you recommend for a common Christian, so that he can use it effectively, without going back and forth in unending useless labyrinths and focus on good works instead?

A practical view of the Bible? I'm not sure there is such a thing. How can there be a practical view of an impractical and difficult to believe religion, along with its generally recognized written adornments? No, I approach Christianity as being on a difficult epistemological road. It's never been simple and, if it's true, wasn't given in any simple way.
 
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trophy33

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Are we talking passed each other here?
Possibly, I do not understand some of your words. Or I have just a vague feeling what they may mean, but I get lost in some of your sentences.

A practical view of the Bible? I'm not sure there is such a thing. How can there be a practical view of an impractical and difficult to believe religion, along with its generally recognized written adornments? No, I approach Christianity as being on a difficult epistemological road. It's never been simple and, if it's true, wasn't given in any simple way.
I think the opposite - Christianity is very simple and very practical. But people complicated it and loaded their burdens with a lot of useless stuff.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Can be, I do not understand many of your words. Or I have just a vague feeling what they may mean, but I get lost in some of your sentences.


I think the opposite - Christianity is very simple and very practical. But people complicated it and loaded their burdens with a lot of useless stuff.

Well then, I'm glad you find Christianity to be "very simple." I, on the other hand, don't and never have.

But be that as it may, I'm not going to argue ad infinitum over whatever differences in theological perspective I may have with other, fellow Christians.

Peace!
 
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trophy33

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Well then, I'm glad you find Christianity to be "very simple." I, on the other hand, don't and never have.
If you had a chance to read "Unum Necessarium" by J.A. Komenský, then that is what I have in mind.

I highly recommend it to every Christian.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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If you had a chance to read "Unum Necessarium" by J.A. Komenský, then that is what I have in mind.

I highly recommend it to every Christian.

As a philosopher with an interest in mass education myself, and while I can appreciate what J.A. Komensky (Comenius) advocated for during his own lifetime, your referencing him just proves my earlier point as to why it's "not simple."

I'm sorry I have to say that and my Cartesian Skepticism and Critical Thinking must remain intact.
 
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Lukaris

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I really think the understanding of works in relation to the judgment of our souls was damaged in relation to and as an aspect of salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10). We are saved by grace and good works are expected ( according to our blessings and keeping the Lord’s commandments).

Paul always approves of good works; it is sinful human misunderstandings that he condemns (boasting, mandatory circumcision ( 1 Corinthians 7:19 ) etc. Paul clearly states in Romans 2:6-16 that our works are judged and we see this in Revelation 20:11-15 for ex.), When we read Romans 4:1-25 we have to recall that this applies those who should know that we are saved by grace no longer trying to see works as some guessing game for our souls.

So often James 2:20 is lugged out as a footnote to Paul preaching salvation by grace. I guess in a pinch, this is doable but ( for ex..) I believe reading whole chapters of like James 1 and 2 and Colossians 1 really shows us how the Apostles are definitely on the same page in explaining to us what the Lord preached to them. .
 
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trophy33

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I'm sorry I have to say that and my Cartesian Skepticism and Critical Thinking must remain intact.
It can. But if you had the chance to read this specific book, then this is what I have in mind saying that real Christianity is simple. Complications are created by people, because they do not recognize what is necessary, what is useful and what is useless or even harmful.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It can. But if you had the chance to read this specific book, then this is what I have in mind saying that real Christianity is simple. Complications are created by people, because they do not recognize what is necessary, what is useful and what is useless or even harmful.

Trophy33, try to realize that at least occasionally, you're not actually talking to a bona fide neophyte. I know, though, it's difficult to tell that this is the case when conversing on a public forum.

I'll try to keep in mind that you favor J.A. Komensky as a formative source.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I dunno. Many people seem to think Christians are the good guys and everyone else are the bad guys.

Of course, I've met plenty of them. I've also met people who think the earth is flat, and people who think Jordan Peterson is a genius.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The overlap of the latter two groups is remarkably large.

I suspect the Venn Diagram between the two isn't all that great, but both overlap considerably with the first. I don't know that flat earthers and Peterson enthusiasts are overlapping all that much, but the sorts of folks that think that Christians are good guys and everyone else are bad guys almost certainly overlap with both quite a bit.

I realize I took what was meant to be humorous seriously, and thus sucked all the joy out of the room. They call me Buzz Killington, and I am never invited to parties.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lukaris

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This board destroyed "Christian" as an adjective with generally positive connotations for me. ("Christian charity", "the Christian thing to do", etc.
What an internet thread did this?

Here is an AI overview of various Christian charities:


 
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ViaCrucis

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What an internet thread did this?

Here is an AI overview of various Christian charities:



I wasn't a fan of the comment either, but let's put on our empathy caps. The reality is that both out in the real world, and especially online, there is the very real reality of Christians acting poorly and saying horrendous things. The internet, due to anonymity, gives people the "power" to express thoughts and ideas they hold and to say things they'd never say out in public (usually) and that means the darkness in all of our hearts is more visible when hidden behind the veil of anonymity.

If I wasn't a Christian, my experience of Christians in online spaces would--on the whole--likely be a very negative one. Even as a Christian my experience of Christians in online spaces is, on the whole, not exactly great. It's not monolithic, because of course there are many wonderful fellow Christians who I am happy to know and interact with on here and elsewhere. But I've been engaged in online debates and discourse in online Christian spaces for the last 25 years, that's over half my lifetime. And the things I have read have been absolutely horrific, from people who supposedly read the same Bible I read and follow the same Jesus I follow.

It's been MANY years now since this particular incident happened, but at one point I was subject to death threats from a fellow Christian. They not only told me that they were praying for my literal demise, they also "prophesied" that it would happen, and very much expressed a desire and willingness to see my life canceled. These messages were sent to my private inbox, not said in the public forum. That's a very real thing that happened. And the reason? I expressed doubt that they had the gift of prophecy. That's all, that's it. This isn't said to garner sympathy, this incident happened a very long time ago, and the people in charge of that forum dealt with it appropriately and nothing more ever came of it. The point is simply to provide an extreme example of an experience.

What I wish we, as Christians did more often, was rather than bunker down and act like this is a battle, is instead take the opportunity to engage in some honest introspection. Not every negative sentiment expressed by a non-Christian is a hostility borne of the cosmic forces of darkness which St. Paul talks about; sometimes it's reaping what has been sown. If we sow hostility, then we shouldn't be shocked or clutch our pearls when we get a negative response. Sometimes people have been burned, hurt, and traumatized, and their anger is not only understandable but justified. A Christian response, again, is not to bring out the guns, but to give ear and hear.

Ultimately, however, if we are going to take Jesus seriously, then we have to take forgiveness and mercy seriously. Empathy is a requirement to taking up our cross. As is holding each other accountable as brothers and sisters. This is much easier, and is preferable, in face-to-face relationships which happen within the same congregation, for a people who literally share the same Table. The fractured nature of Christian experience in the modern world, due to a history of division and denominationalism, as well as the peculiar modern experience of non-in-person experiences through the internet creates difficulty and challenges; but nevertheless the central principles of Christian koinonia involve holding ourselves and each other to the standard of Christ, of living the penitential life of a disciple of Christ, and being witness-bearers to Christ--and that means bearing our culpability with frankness and honesty.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Lukaris

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I wasn't a fan of the comment either, but let's put on our empathy caps. The reality is that both out in the real world, and especially online, there is the very real reality of Christians acting poorly and saying horrendous things. The internet, due to anonymity, gives people the "power" to express thoughts and ideas they hold and to say things they'd never say out in public (usually) and that means the darkness in all of our hearts is more visible when hidden behind the veil of anonymity.

If I wasn't a Christian, my experience of Christians in online spaces would--on the whole--likely be a very negative one. Even as a Christian my experience of Christians in online spaces is, on the whole, not exactly great. It's not monolithic, because of course there are many wonderful fellow Christians who I am happy to know and interact with on here and elsewhere. But I've been engaged in online debates and discourse in online Christian spaces for the last 25 years, that's over half my lifetime. And the things I have read have been absolutely horrific, from people who supposedly read the same Bible I read and follow the same Jesus I follow.

It's been MANY years now since this particular incident happened, but at one point I was subject to death threats from a fellow Christian. They not only told me that they were praying for my literal demise, they also "prophesied" that it would happen, and very much expressed a desire and willingness to see my life canceled. These messages were sent to my private inbox, not said in the public forum. That's a very real thing that happened. And the reason? I expressed doubt that they had the gift of prophecy. That's all, that's it. This isn't said to garner sympathy, this incident happened a very long time ago, and the people in charge of that forum dealt with it appropriately and nothing more ever came of it. The point is simply to provide an extreme example of an experience.

What I wish we, as Christians did more often, was rather than bunker down and act like this is a battle, is instead take the opportunity to engage in some honest introspection. Not every negative sentiment expressed by a non-Christian is a hostility borne of the cosmic forces of darkness which St. Paul talks about; sometimes it's reaping what has been sown. If we sow hostility, then we shouldn't be shocked or clutch our pearls when we get a negative response. Sometimes people have been burned, hurt, and traumatized, and their anger is not only understandable but justified. A Christian response, again, is not to bring out the guns, but to give ear and hear.

Ultimately, however, if we are going to take Jesus seriously, then we have to take forgiveness and mercy seriously. Empathy is a requirement to taking up our cross. As is holding each other accountable as brothers and sisters. This is much easier, and is preferable, in face-to-face relationships which happen within the same congregation, for a people who literally share the same Table. The fractured nature of Christian experience in the modern world, due to a history of division and denominationalism, as well as the peculiar modern experience of non-in-person experiences through the internet creates difficulty and challenges; but nevertheless the central principles of Christian koinonia involve holding ourselves and each other to the standard of Christ, of living the penitential life of a disciple of Christ, and being witness-bearers to Christ--and that means bearing our culpability with frankness and honesty.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks for your post and sorry you had to endure such ill will. I wasn’t individually affected by the sentiment I responded to and understand if the poster and I are at deep political odds.It was the generalization
that bothered me. There are plenty of Christians of all shades of liberal and conservative mindsets in this forum. There are conservative minded ( not presuming to define though) secular posters I like better than some liberal Christian posters in CF.
 
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FreeinChrist

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ADVISOR HAT


This thread has been moved from Ethics & Morality as it was off topic to that forum. This forum is Christian Only.

A clean up is being done.
 
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Godcrazy

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Edit: I think it might be okay to mention that I have schizophrenia/bi-polar if this seems like a stupid read.
First off I have a tendency to only post negative feelings or experiences, so let me reiterate that I have indeed had a lot of very good moments in my faith

But. Recently going through a rougher patch and it's not necessarily even my patch.

My family seems to be struggling a lot. I have siblings as well and we all know siblings can argue a lot.

The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

In the same way that growing up my parents never mentioned God once. The time I was trying to believe in Jesus was a horrible time as well. I've had a hard time coming to peace with that and constantly ruminate on the mistakes I made through just going with the mainstream Christianity or lack thereof. In the bible it explains how bad it is for anyone who causes the little ones to stumble, yet in the broken world we live in that seems to be the overwhelming majority of people.

And if parents don't teach their kids anything of spiritual sustonence how can God hold that over them growing up with none? It's a habitual cycle of brokenness as I feel the way to finding God is obviously a hard test of faith because I remember not even understanding how to call on the Lord.

I've just seen the way this leads to absolute brokenness and I have a hard time trying to believe God's morality as anything that is actual morale. Morale is based on clear evidence of right or wrong when we are born into this world missing the very Spirit that tells us right from wrong. Unless I'm just so off and he is always actually there allowing our mistakes to happen. Even so though?

It's just is seeming a chaotic cluster fluff to me right now. Deception has been a big topic I'm studying lately and it's hard to believe we live in a world like this, being hated and a target
I`m sorry for your mental health. Know that there are good prognosis to get well from borderline with the correct treatment. Scitzophrenia.. I once spoke to a therapist he had bad scitzo, he managed it almost without meds with clean foods, little processed and chemicals. you might want to try unless you already are. Many, even exorcists and spiritual people say people who have this are more sensitive to the spiritual and need guidance how to handle it how 50% of the cases are like that. In other words, prophetic and sense see the spiritual realm.

What we don`t know about God does not give us responsibility for. And God always forgive. Times have changed a lot since the 2000 when people became more selfish and materialistic. I noticed it was medias fault mainly. Even more important who we socialise and what we fill our minds and eyes with. without going fanatic of course. Just being mind ful how we are affected and avoid what affects us. Some people can do more of certain things than other. Note did not say sinning.
I have listened to catholic exorcists talking about how we are not as christian as nation anymore and as such new influences crept in especially the occult and about sexuality. As a result people are leaving God and the church they said , and spiritual warfare and how the evil attacks us, especially our minds, are not talked about often in the churches, but the truth is as soon as we become christian we are in spiritual warfare and we have to learn how to handle that. How the enemy works and what his traps are here I recommend John Ramirez a former devil worshipper and born again and pastor. You can find him online or his books on amazon he has come out with a new one about enemys traps and snares and how to see and defeat.
I grew up in an atheistic family and abusive family had christian relatives. But I had a strong sense for right and wrong. That is God writing his laws in our heart. Just because you have not been taught from family does not matter big not in my experience God came for me anyway. But you can of course be dragged into stuff more due to how society is nowadays and media. God does not work on feelings. He has forgiven you and is with you, no matter your feelings.
The key out of brokenness is to stay close to God and his word, and be close to him and how he wants us to live. It truly gives peace in chaos. He has not said we will not get chaos, but that He will walk us through it. How the righteous fall, but rise up again, sometimes, it is tests. think of Job. Evil uses other people, and the world, even more important stay close.
I am sorry to hear you are struggling. Feel free to reach out. hugs to you also do what you can to create order and routine. in your state you need that
 
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timf

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The reason for me doubting morality is rooted in the way Christianity is portrayed through mainstream media. It's very counter intuitive to Christianity. I feel like it tries to over emphasize it without explaining the Word of God and including the Holy Spirit into teachings leaving everyone with less than nothing.

Satan runs the world (for now and insofar as he is allowed by God). One might expect that the world (including mainstream media) would not be interested in painting an accurate picture of Christianity. We also have the problem of Christianity as it was supposed to be versus how it is actually practiced.

In addition, Christianity should not be measured by morality. Israel was supposed to show the world morality by keeping the law. The law and morality help us to learn to limit the harm we do to others. Christianity was supposed to be about transcending the law by actively doing good for others. Morality was supposed to be incidental to Christianity.

Christianity was supposed to be about us becoming like Jesus and showing his selfless love to others. Sadly, we still mostly walk in the flesh. Some even try to make Christianity law like.

If you can dig past the baloney, you can find that in Christianity that is real, true, and of value.
 
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