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6,000 Years?

trophy33

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What am I missing? What was created during Creation that wasn’t created at a functional age?
1. You are missing that Genesis describes Adam to be "hand-made", while all other animals were supposed to be produced by waters or by land.

2. You are missing that when we look at the history of life in the ground, we see organisms getting gradually from simple to complex ones.
 
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davetaff

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i did...post 1221 and 1223
Hi Platte you said

An ageless society living without God - That destruction certainly shows me why having God in our lives and in our society is so important.

This dose not answer my question

you said

The Flood was approx 2348 BC (1656 years after creation). Adam died 700 years before the flood. There is no creation process…Creation was a 6 day event ~6000 years ago. Man was created in the image of God in the beginning

Where in scripture can I find these numbers I cant find then that Adam died before the flood is stated in scripture but it dose not say how long before do you make up your own numbers.

Love and Peace
Dave
 
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DialecticSkeptic

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No one has, does, or ever will this side of heaven, observe the historical scientific theories of YECs or deep-timers.

A theory is an explanation, by definition, and explanations are not something we observe. What we observe is evidence, and theories are the explanations we construct to make sense of what we observe.

Your category mistake here renders your subsequent remark accidentally ironic: "Deep-timers, therefore, have learned nothing regarding established and/or observed and verified facts."


I believe YECs, though, have more observable facts with which to base their young-earth views upon than deep-timers have regarding theirs.

What observable facts do young-earth creationists have that old-earth creationists do not?


As there deep time views themselves, require much faith in many more unobservable events of the past, which can only be conjectured upon.

I hope that by "faith" you mean trust, because faith is a sacred thing reserved only for God.

And it requires no more trust than a forensic investigation into a past crime that wasn't observed.


... all of which are directly in line with the base testimony of that in which we place our faith, the holy scriptures.

Those who place their faith in scriptures do err, for it is in Christ that we should place our faith. He is our savior, of whom all of scripture testifies. "You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me" (John 5:39).
 
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Amo2

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I meant modern crime scene reconstruction, with tons of sophisticated methods. For example, you can determine almost everything about a person from hair or you can determine the time from how much microscopic dust settled and similar.

When we look at the universe and at our planet, we see it was not created 6,000 years ago in 6 days. Not even human history fits into 6,000 years.
No, quite apparently, a great many of us do not. What can be determined about a person from their hair, cannot reveal anything about the character or life events of a person on trial, connected to a possible crime they committed in any case. No doubt any information gathered regarding microscopic dust, also includes presumption regarding conditions which might affect a faster or slower rate of such build up as well. This is not to mention the possible countless possible variables, which cannot be known at all in a crime investigation. All such unknowns which are applicable to the deep time or not investigations as well. Including suggested variables from holy scripture for which there is a great deal of physical evidence, which the majority of deep timers choose to ignore or consider, such as the global flood.

As far as history going back further than 6000 years, this subject is highly contested and contestable as well.
 
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trophy33

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No, quite apparently, a great many of us do not. What can be determined about a person from their hair, cannot reveal anything about the character or life events of a person on trial, connected to a possible crime they committed in any case. No doubt any information gathered regarding microscopic dust, also includes presumption regarding conditions which might affect a faster or slower rate of such build up as well. This is not to mention the possible countless possible variables, which cannot be known at all in a crime investigation. All such unknowns which are applicable to the deep time or not investigations as well. Including suggested variables from holy scripture for which there is a great deal of physical evidence, which the majority of deep timers choose to ignore or consider, such as the global flood.
I am not sure what is your point exactly. We can learn a lot about the past, when we look, measure and analyze. Without observing the past directly.

As far as history going back further than 6000 years, this subject is highly contested and contestable as well.
Nonsense, it is not being contested at all. Do not think that some YEC websites have any influence on real science.
 
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Amo2

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Except for the passages where it doesn't, such as Cain fearing for his life and finding a wife, and building a city outside of Eden, all before Adam and Eve had more sons and daughters.

Family geneologies are family geneologies. There is no reason to expect them to include people outside of the family.
There is no reason either, to expect holy scripture to include all the details of all the children born to Adam and Eve. To the contrary, scripture does not even mention any of the women born to Adam and Eve, but regarding the general statement that they begat sons and daughters. It is blatantly obvious that holy scripture necessarily addresses the history alone, of the main characters involved from the creation forward, in maintaining a knowledge of God and His everlasting covenant with humanity. Including the struggles of these main characters in relation to the ever increasing number of peoples who forsook God's covenant and leadership on this predominantly fallen world.

We know nothing of the woman born to Adam and Eve, nor even the majority of the men born to them. Their histories are simply not recorded, and for very good reasons concerning time, space, and reader comprehension of course. Just to mention a few. It makes no sense therefore, for one to presume, there were no woman around for Cain to procreate with. Nor to imagine that the scriptures intend to keep track of the time frames involved with all the sons and daughters born to Adam and Eve and their offspring. As this is most obviously not the intent or purpose of the holy scriptures. To the contrary however, it was and is meant to be a comprehendible history of the main characters and events of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ. Instituted at the fall of humanity, with prophetic utterances including the main events of the gospel, throughout this fallen world's history up to its final end.

We do not know, nor does the bible try to explain and or address the exact number of children Adam and Eve had, or exactly when they had them. This is true concerning woman altogether, and the majority no doubt, of their sons. The book of Genesis covers a period I believe, of about 2000 years, correct me if I'm mistaken. It most obviously is and could not be a history of all the descendants of Adam and Eve, which would include innumerable volumes, and contain an incomprehensible amount of information. We simply have no idea about the vast majority of Adam and Eve's descendants, and or their descendants, and so on, and so forth. You are making presumptions about that which is simply unknown. Nevertheless, as a deep timer, I understand this proclivity as necessary to your cause. We all make presumptions according to our differing faiths, but we do not all demand that such presumptions are indisputable facts.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good report. 3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
 
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Amo2

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I am not sure what is your point exactly. We can learn a lot about the past, when we look, measure and analyze. Without observing the past directly.


Nonsense, it is not being contested at all. Do not think that some YEC websites have any influence on real science.
I don't think anything. A great deal of that which YEC's address is factual, observed, tested, and proved science. That you would not acknowledge such is indicative of either your actual ignorance concerning the same, or faith based and driven bias. We can learn a lot about the past using scientific methods. This has nothing to do with establishing theories concerning such as absolute facts, as so very much of theories are based upon and must include presumptive conjecture. This is why they are theories and not established facts. Young Earth Creation and Deep Time Evolution, are both theories, built upon different faiths regarding what cannot be observed. Each refusing and or debating suggested evidences of contradiction based upon the faith of those involved. They both observe, test, and extrapolate upon the same evidence, according to the dictates of their chosen faiths. Nevertheless, YEC's admit of their faith from the get go, while deep timers try to pass their faith off as scientific fact.
 
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Platte

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Hi Platte you said

An ageless society living without God - That destruction certainly shows me why having God in our lives and in our society is so important.

This dose not answer my question

you said

The Flood was approx 2348 BC (1656 years after creation). Adam died 700 years before the flood. There is no creation process…Creation was a 6 day event ~6000 years ago. Man was created in the image of God in the beginning

Where in scripture can I find these numbers I cant find then that Adam died before the flood is stated in scripture but it dose not say how long before do you make up your own numbers.

Love and Peace
Dave
Genesis 5
 
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trophy33

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I don't think anything. A great deal of that which YEC's address is factual, observed, tested, and proved science. That you would not acknowledge such is indicative of either your actual ignorance concerning the same, or faith based and driven bias.
It is not "ignorance". The YEC are neither respected nor considered factual or useful in the fields they try to address. Outside of your bubble, for example in Europe or in Asia, only few people even know something like YEC even exists.

I noticed the YEC have quite a firm position in some American churches and so some American Christians think they are more important than they are in reality. But worldwide, they are not even on the radar of science. Not more than any other religious sect trying to push their belief into scientific fields. Something worth mentioning in some specialized journal for religious studies, but that is probably all.

In Europe, the only denomination I can think of that is openly YEC, are the Seventh Day Adventists.
 
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FaithT

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Points 1 and 2 are correct, but points 3 and 4 are not entirely correct.

Regarding point 3: Some young-earth creationists are willing to acknowledge that the evidence seems to indicate that the universe and Earth are billions of years old, but it only SEEMS that way. They are unwilling to acknowledge that the evidence truly indicates an old age. And it only seems that way because fallible scientists have interpreted the evidence incorrectly, starting with faulty assumptions (such as the principle of uniformitarianism, which holds that the same laws and processes operating in the present were operating in the past). When you interpret the evidence correctly, they say—which means subordinate to a literal reading of Genesis—it indicates that creation is only a few thousand years old. They claim that many features typically cited as evidence for an old Earth (e.g., radiometric dating, distant starlight, geological strata) can be reinterpreted within a young-earth framework if one adopts different starting assumptions. (For example, they suggest that both the fall and a literal worldwide flood probably altered the laws and processes operating in the past.)

Other young-earth creationists are willing to admit that the evidence really indicates an old age but they believe God created everything just a few thousand years ago with the appearance of age. They usually point to Adam as an example of this, who would have appeared to be a couple of decades old despite being created a few minutes ago.

Regarding point 4: While it is their interpretation of the Bible that says otherwise, they have been conditioned through carefully crafted rhetoric (e.g., by Answers in Genesis) to conflate their interpretation of the Bible with the Bible itself; in other words, they have been led to believe that to reject young-earth creationism is to reject scripture. For example, look at what one CF member said a few days ago: "Let's agree that the Bible is teaching that creation was ~6000 years ago and took six days to complete" (link; emphasis mine).
About point 3, last paragraph. God wouldn’t try to deceive us.
 
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Job 33:6

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There is no reason either, to expect holy scripture to include all the details of all the children born to Adam and Eve. To the contrary, scripture does not even mention any of the women born to Adam and Eve, but regarding the general statement that they begat sons and daughters.
Cain was exiled from Eden and found his wife before any others were mentioned. The most plain reading of the text is that Cain's wife was of people beyond Eden, that is to say, children not born or Adam and Eve. It's not about Cain marrying his sister.

Genesis 4:14-17, 25 ESV
[14] Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” [15] Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. [16] Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. [17] Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
[25] And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”

Genesis 5:4 ESV
[3] When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. [4] The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.

Only YECs read the text backwards and try to retroactively imagine Cain marrying his sister. It's completely dishonest.
 
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Job 33:6

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I don't think anything. A great deal of that which YEC's address is factual, observed, tested, and proved science.
And yet, 99.9999% of scientist would say otherwise. I've read plenty of YEC literature myself and it's always littered with contradictions and dishonesty. Hence why none of their material is ever published in any scientific journals anywhere on planet earth, aside from on their own YEC websites.
 
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Amo2

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A theory is an explanation, by definition, and explanations are not something we observe. What we observe is evidence, and theories are the explanations we construct to make sense of what we observe.
Yes a theory is an explanation or definition, a great many of which have been and are proved wrong over time. Theories can and have been proved wrong, while scientific observable facts, cannot. People come to different conclusions or theories regarding largely the same evidences. This because people most often develop theories in order to support that which they have already determined or consider likely. YEC's, OEC's, and or atheistic evolutionists, each having different perspectives or views to support with the theories they work upon regarding these differing faiths. Which themselves are largely built upon the faiths of many before them, with these exact intentions in mind.

Your category mistake here renders your subsequent remark accidentally ironic: "Deep-timers, therefore, have learned nothing regarding established and/or observed and verified facts."
There is nothing ironic about the statement you refer to above. Deep time theories are not built upon observed verified facts, but rather there interpretation of those facts, with quite a bit of presumption thrown into the mix. Presumptions built upon their deep time faith, which apparently, most of them do not want to admit of. Rather claiming their faith and or trust in observations made by many before them, to be facts. Which they are not. YEC's on the other hand, admit of their faith based assumptions from the get go.
What observable facts do young-earth creationists have that old-earth creationists do not?

Let me expound upon and or restate the point I was intending to make which you have questioned above. The observable facts are the same for both groups. Though each might downplay or ignore facts which cause problems for their chosen theories. YEC's do not have more facts supporting their view because the number of facts is greater, but simply because they do not have to explain nearly as much as deep timers do and must. YEC's observations of the facts only need to explain as far back as the creation 6000 years ago, and do not even attempt to explain the exact how of creation and or theories concerning evolution. Accepting that which holy scripture plainly states, regarding special creation by God, concerning processes and powers far beyond our present ability to understand let alone explain.

Deep timers on the other hand, most of whom are evolutionists I do believe, must theorize and extrapolate far more extensively upon the scientific facts which are available to all. Stretching these theories and therefore their own speculations regarding the facts available to all, over an ever increasing depth of time and suggested events of simple to complex evolutions regarding the same.

At the same time, there are observable scientific facts which do support and therefore may be applied to young earth theories, which cannot or do not support deep time theories. Catastrophism, which YEC’s have always believe in and is increasingly being acknowledged by deep time evolutionists, is by nature supportive of YEC’s views. It may be acknowledged by deep timers as true, but does not naturally support deep time slow development scenarios. Though it may be accepted by deep timers as a repeated phenomenon through extension of theorized deep time scenarios.

The same may be deduced regarding the observable factual evidence which naturally supports a YEC’s views of a global flood. While such an event produces major problems for the slow deep time processes of evolutionary theory, representing a major interruption of such theorized processes. YEC’s have need to speculate or theorize regarding such, while deep time evolutionists must develop extended theories concerning continual and repeated smaller scale floods and catastrophes to account for the same observable evidence. Although now, many do subscribe to near global flood events brought on by large meteor impacts upon the planet. Yet further extending speculations and theories regarding the same evidence.

There is also the matter of the continued factual observations of complexity being found further and further back in time, than deep timers once thought or allowed for. Evidence which once again naturally supports the idea of complexity from the beginning, as YEC’s believe, but cannot be admitted of by deep time evolutionary theorists. As such is detrimental to their views, or at the very least, has forced them to continually increase the amounts of time involved in their theory. So that in these respects just to mention a few, YEC’s do actually have more observable factual evidence which naturally supports their views, without continued extensive speculation and or theory to adapt to the same.

No sense in bypassing the issue of complexity itself regardless of time factors in relation to development. The harder and deeper we look, the more we factually observe, that there does not appear to be any simple life form. Everything appears to be amazingly complex. This is of course, naturally supportive of the idea that God created all things complex and fully functional from the beginning. Yet requires far more speculation and theorizing if it be attributed to deep time slowly developing simple to complex evolution. Which has lead evolutionists to begin generating theories concerning much more rapid changes than once believed and or taught. Based upon newer observed rapid changes which have been recorded. Imagine that. No revisions or changes in YEC beliefs were or are necessary to such discoveries of course.

I could go on addressing adjusted deep timer views regarding fossilization, rapid formation of coal, oil, stalactites, stalagmites, gems, diamonds, and so on and so forth, according to increased information regarding such. Such would be very time consuming though. Suffice it to say, that such increased knowledge about much more rapid formation of all of the above, required no adjustments for YEC’s as such is naturally supportive of their views. Which more recently developed observable facts are not indicative of, or naturally supportive of deep time scenarios. Though deep timers once used these formations to support their theories while most believed that these formations required deep time.

One more case deserves mention as well. The discovery of soft tissue in dinosaur bones, that’s right bones, not fossils. Such again requires little to no adjustment by YEC’s, while bringing very serious questions and issues to the deep timers table. Requiring new speculations and theories once again, to either explain and or explain away the phenomenon. So I rephrase and or restate my previous position once again - I do believe that YEC’s have more factual evidences which naturally supports their faith and views, than deep timers do or can without increased speculations and theorizing being involved. None of which are factually observed science.

I hope that by "faith" you mean trust, because faith is a sacred thing reserved only for God.

And it requires no more trust than a forensic investigation into a past crime that wasn't observed.

These two above statements appear to be somewhat contradictory. Perhaps I’m not getting exactly what you mean or intend. By faith I mean those whose testimony we believe, trust, and submit to.
Those who place their faith in scriptures do err, for it is in Christ that we should place our faith. He is our savior, of whom all of scripture testifies. "You study the scriptures thoroughly because you think in them you possess eternal life, and it is these same scriptures that testify about me" (John 5:39).
Another seemingly contradictory statement. Rightly dividing the word of God as I understand it, involves knowing the scriptures thoroughly by way of continued prayerful study of the same. Thereby avoiding the detrimental effects of making one portion of holy scripture contradict another. Casting doubt thereby, upon the whole.

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Of course the problem might be with the translation you have chosen, not properly interpreted scripture itself. I believe what you quoted was supposed to be John 5:38 & 39. As that quoted below from the KJV, which seems to convey a very different message than that of your above quote.

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. 39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Would you mind sharing which translation you quoted from? The difference between it and the KJV is quite shocking. Not to mention the major difference between your version and 2Ti 3:15-17 which I quoted also.
 
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Amo2

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And yet, 99.9999% of scientist would say otherwise. I've read plenty of YEC literature myself and it's always littered with contradictions and dishonesty. Hence why none of their material is ever published in any scientific journals anywhere on planet earth, aside from on their own YEC websites.
An ignorant statement to be sure. Please do bring such literature here to be examined for such dishonesty and contradictions. The writings themselves, not some else's critiques of them. They may have been wrong about something as so very any scientists of the past and present have been and or are, this does not amount to dishonesty or contradiction though. I recall more than one instance of YEC material being published in scientific journals, which I will try to locate and post here. Of course, such would not be common among deep timer journals.
 
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Amo2

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Cain was exiled from Eden and found his wife before any others were mentioned. The most plain reading of the text is that Cain's wife was of people beyond Eden, that is to say, children not born or Adam and Eve. It's not about Cain marrying his sister.

Genesis 4:14-17, 25 ESV
[14] Behold, you have driven me today away from the ground, and from your face I shall be hidden. I shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth, and whoever finds me will kill me.” [15] Then the Lord said to him, “Not so! If anyone kills Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.” And the Lord put a mark on Cain, lest any who found him should attack him. [16] Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. [17] Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch. When he built a city, he called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch.
[25] And Adam knew his wife again, and she bore a son and called his name Seth, for she said, “God has appointed for me another offspring instead of Abel, for Cain killed him.”

Genesis 5:4 ESV
[3] When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. [4] The days of Adam after he fathered Seth were 800 years; and he had other sons and daughters.

Only YECs read the text backwards and try to retroactively imagine Cain marrying his sister. It's completely dishonest.

You simply are not familiar enough with the scriptures to rightly divide what they teach.

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Adam and Eve were removed from the garden before they had children. It was guarded by Cherubim's to prevent anyone from entering. Nor are you aware either, of the following scripture, which completely contradicts what you are trying to say scripture reveals.

Gen 3:20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

The bible does not teach what you suggest, but tells a different story throughout. Never referring to anything like what you propose.
 
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Amo2

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It is not "ignorance". The YEC are neither respected nor considered factual or useful in the fields they try to address. Outside of your bubble, for example in Europe or in Asia, only few people even know something like YEC even exists.

I noticed the YEC have quite a firm position in some American churches and so some American Christians think they are more important than they are in reality. But worldwide, they are not even on the radar of science. Not more than any other religious sect trying to push their belief into scientific fields. Something worth mentioning in some specialized journal for religious studies, but that is probably all.

In Europe, the only denomination I can think of that is openly YEC, are the Seventh Day Adventists.
I care nothing for the numbers game. The vast majority have always been deceived. Nor do numbers or a lack of them = truth to any degree. Keep your respect or considerations, which YEC's no doubt are not very concerned about. If you think YEC's have no observed factual science upon which they establishes their theories, you are simply ignorant.
 
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Job 33:6

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You simply are not familiar enough with the scriptures to rightly divide what they teach.
Maybe you're not familiar enough with scripture to discern what it plainly says. It's amazing, I thought only atheists talked to people like this.
 
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Job 33:6

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An ignorant statement to be sure. Please do bring such literature here to be examined for such dishonesty and contradictions.
Actually it's a fact. YECs are largely non existent in the scientific world. And rightly so. None of their research makes any sense, not even to they themselves.
 
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