No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

ThatDumbChicken · Monday at 8:03 AM

Brightfame52 said:
Rabbit trail, stick with op

It directly addresses the OP. You can't reconcile Hebrews 11, so you just wave it away. Nice theology you got there.

Brightfame52 · Monday at 9:07 AM

ThatDumbChicken said:
It directly addresses the OP. You can't reconcile Hebrews 11, so you just wave it away. Nice theology you got there.

I dont chase rabbits

Jack Terrence · Monday at 12:42 PM

Brightfame52 said:
This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, thats also called His having Mercy on a man. 9

False. Paul said that God justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5). The ungodly are unregenerate. The ungodly are justified by faith. Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

Even the Westminster Confession which is Calvinist says that God justifies men "not for anything wrought in them or done by them." God justifies the ungodly (unregenerate) by faith. Then he gives them new life in regeneration. Regeneration is for sanctification (Calvin's Institutes 3.11.1).

Brightfame52 · Monday at 2:51 PM

Jack Terrence said:
False. Paul said that God justifies the ungodly (Romans 4:5). The ungodly are unregenerate. The ungodly are justified by faith. Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

Even the Westminster Confession which is Calvinist says that God justifies men "not for anything wrought in them or done by them." God justifies the ungodly (unregenerate) by faith. Then he gives them new life in regeneration. Regeneration is for sanctification (Calvin's Institutes 3.11.1).

No its not false, you just been deceived to think so

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 7:28 AM

Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

enoob57 · Tuesday at 10:52 AM

Brightfame52 said:
The all is limited to all the saved.

That is a wrangling of the text. It is not supported by the grammar and it’s twisted to fit your theology. Period. It is born out of Augustinian theology of the fourth century anyone with scholastic ability can search and find out that this is true.TULIP is an errant theology…

Jack Terrence · Tuesday at 1:29 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Where did Jesus say that ? You just read it, frankly you cant understand it.

Too lazy to look it up? John 831-32

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Calvinists like to cite verse 34 "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" in isolation from the preceding verses. First, we believe. Then we are progressively set free as we continue in his word.

I marvel that you say I don't understand it when it seems that you didn't even know Jesus said it.

Jack Terrence · Tuesday at 1:34 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The drawing of the Father of some to come to/believe in Christ is actually the Father giving them to His Son Jn 6:65

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Again Jn 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

This is the only way a man can come to believe in Christ, it can be only by the will of the Father, not mans so called freewill.

See the natural mans will as he is, is dead, spiritually dead in sin, hes in a hopeless lost state, and not only cannot come, but will not come /believe Jn 5:40, and Rom 3:11.

The word given in Jn 6:65 and giveth in Jn 6:37 is the same word δίδωμί and it means:

to give one to some one as his own: as the object of his saving care, to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master,

God is said to have given certain men to Christ, i. e. to have disposed them to acknowledge Christ as the author and medium of their salvation, and to enter into intimate relations with him, hence Christ calls them 'his own' (τὰ ἐμά, John 10:14).

So we have God causing them to be willing in the day of His Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

In John 6 was addressing apostate Jews.

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 1:57 PM

enoob57 said:
That is a wrangling of the text. It is not supported by the grammar and it’s twisted to fit your theology. Period. It is born out of Augustinian theology of the fourth century anyone with scholastic ability can search and find out that this is true.TULIP is an errant theology…

You just dont understand, but its limited to the elect

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 1:58 PM

Jack Terrence said:
Too lazy to look it up? John 831-32

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Calvinists like to cite verse 34 "If the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" in isolation from the preceding verses. First, we believe. Then we are progressively set free as we continue in his word.

I marvel that you say I don't understand it when it seems that you didn't even know Jesus said it.

Insults instead

Brightfame52 · Tuesday at 2:08 PM

Jack Terrence said:
In John 6 was addressing apostate Jews.

Jew or Gentile doesnt matter all of us are born under sin and its power, spiritually dead.

enoob57 · Tuesday at 4:14 PM

Brightfame52 said:
You just dont understand, but its limited to the elect

This is what I love about God‘s word it dispels darkness and lies
1 John 2:1-3 (KJV)
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 5:23 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Did I speak in spanish ?

You didn't speak on 2 Peter 2:1 in any language, so I can only assume that means you can't reconcile it with your doctrine. Why else would you be silent about it?

Brightfame52 said:
Im not going to explain it to you, you just will believe a lie.

Grow up. If you believed the truth, then you would be able to explain it.

Brightfame52 said:
Not that I cant, I have started threads on it, but im not. I will say that you have a low view of the death of Christ that dishonors Him.

Total nonsense. Is this all you have to offer is misrepresentations of what I believe? Why should anyone take you seriously? My view of the death of Christ is that He died to give all people in the whole world the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. It is YOU who dishonors Him by limiting His atonement.

Spiritual Jew · Tuesday at 5:25 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Negative, those drawn in Jn 12:32 are saved and converted. Acts 7 51 has noting to with them

John 12:32 refers to all people being drawn. Something you deny. That is like denying that God wants all people to be saved even though scripture clearly teaches that He does (1 Timothy 2:3-6). The reason that some are not saved is not because of their supposed total depravity, but because they use their free will to choose to reject Christ and the gospel.

Rescued One · Tuesday at 5:47 PM

Fervent said:
At what point do they gain the ability to do something other than what the Calvinist puppetmaster image of God decrees?

There is no puppetmaster. At what point do you achieve salvation?

Rescued One · Tuesday at 5:50 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
You didn't speak on 2 Peter 2:1 in any language, so I can only assume that means you can't reconcile it with your doctrine. Why else would you be silent about it?

Grow up. If you believed the truth, then you would be able to explain it.

Total nonsense. Is this all you have to offer is misrepresentations of what I believe? Why should anyone take you seriously? My view of the death of Christ is that He died to give all people in the whole world the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. It is YOU who dishonors Him by limiting His atonement.

Those who are saved take Christians seriously.

Fervent · Tuesday at 6:00 PM

Rescued One said:
There is no puppetmaster. At what point do you achieve salvation?

Simply claiming there is no puppetmaster doesn't make the charge go away. Calvinist paint God as the only one able to act, because Calvinists beleive everything has been meticulously decreed and God has decided how every person will act in every instance. If we have no genuine freedom, then we are merely puppets and everything including this conversation and my disgust at the Calvinist vision of God were decided by God in eternity past. So Calvinists turn God into a double-minded puppet master and make a mockery of concepts like love and justice by painting God as unloving and injust.

Brightfame52 · Wednesday at 3:32 AM

The only ones who will come to Christ/believe in Him for all Salvation will be His Sheep Jn 10:26. And its not by their own freewill nor anything native or natural within them, but by the Father having given them to the Son Jn 6:37,65 which speaks to Election. The Father by drawing them to Christ, actually, by His Spirit of Grace, causes them to come or believe in Christ, hence all credit, praise, honor must go to God for a person believing in Jesus Christ for Salvation. See Phil 1:29

For unto you it is given on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 9

Brightfame52 · Wednesday at 3:34 AM

enoob57 said:
This is what I love about God‘s word it dispels darkness and lies
1 John 2:1-3 (KJV)
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

That scripture is limited to the elect

Brightfame52 · Wednesday at 3:37 AM

Spiritual Jew said:
You didn't speak on 2 Peter 2:1 in any language, so I can only assume that means you can't reconcile it with your doctrine. Why else would you be silent about it?

Grow up. If you believed the truth, then you would be able to explain it.

Total nonsense. Is this all you have to offer is misrepresentations of what I believe? Why should anyone take you seriously? My view of the death of Christ is that He died to give all people in the whole world the opportunity to be saved and have eternal life. It is YOU who dishonors Him by limiting His atonement.

Its on you to prove that 2 Pet 2:1 teaches redemption by the blood of Christ is being discussed. Its on you to explain it, Im explaining why no person can come/believe on Christ by their own freewill.

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

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