By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

fhansen said:

Neither is remaining in their unrighteousness.

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Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


The New King James Version (Lk 18:9–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

fhansen said:

Yes, there's no other path to true righteousness than that of humility, to first acknowledge our own unrighteousness rather than proclaim our righteousness as if we already possesed it, apart from God. God is the source of the real thing and He bestows the real thing, real righteousness, as He sends the Holy Spirit to those who turn and bow before Him.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections." Augustine

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This sounds good at first blush, but it falls apart quickly. True righteous and holiness is definatley a free gift received by those humbled by their sins and who find refuge in Christ. But after receiving it, humility continues because of the unrighteousness which still exists in the flesh and which still works its way into our conscious and subconscious actions. Because of the Spirit's true righteousness and holiness and because of our oneness with Him in spirit, we are aware of our sins and the sinfulness of our flesh. We do not like being in this skin of flesh and we desire to be free from it. But no matter how hard we pray for it to be taken away, the answer is always the same -- "My forgiveness is enough for you. Continue walking in it." At no point do we ever get comfortable with our sins, no matter how small, and at no point do we ever think that what we are able to muster up in the flesh is good enough to satisfy God's requirements for righteousness. At no point do we ever place our confidence in the flesh.

This, of course, is our attitude toward the flesh. But our attitude toward the Spirit is different. Jesus literally resides in us. From the intimacy of our own hearts, He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us. Through the miracle of spiritual birth, we have been joined to Him and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). It is there, in our union with Him that our righteousness exists. His righteousness has become our righteousness because we are one spirit with Him. And as Scripture promises, if we adopt the mindset that we are one with Christ in the new man and walk in lock step with Him where He leads, then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is so because the desires of the flesh are in adversarial opposition to the desires of the Spirit, and the result of carrying out the Spirit's desires is that the desires of the flesh are left unfulfilled.

You want to make our relationship with God contingent on the righteousness or unrighteousness of our deeds. And you think the righteousness we have by virtue of our oneness with Chist is "pretend" righteousness. This is the opposite of reality. Nobody's deeds will ever be righteous enough to earn eternal life, no matter how much "help" they think they get from the Lord. The only way to make it into heaven is to receive His mercy and to become one spirit with the Lord through union with Him.

We have discussed this issue several times. It always comes back to the same place. I do not know what else I can say to move you off self-reliance (I know you say you are not self-reliant). But don't you have to admit that if a person were to sin so bad that his relationship with God is severed, it is not because He failed to give that person the help he needed to succeed? I don't know how you could concede this point withoout concluding, as I have, that success or failure in your scenario is wholey dependent on the individual's performance. Isn't that works by definition?

fhansen said:

I'm saying that being a believer:
1) is not a license to remain in our sins, not even close
2) does not guarantee immunity from sin

To the extent that you can reconcile these two positions you'll better understand the gospel. It's about a partnership, a realtionship that man was created for, and that he has a certain responsibility for maintaining as with any realtionship. Sin/unrighteousness can most definitely destroy that relationship wth God.

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I think I see what you're saying. You are saying...

1) A believer does not have God's permission to sin after salvation, and
2) If a believer sins, then he fails to live up to his responsibility for maintaining his relationship with God and he must pay the consequences.

This sounds like something someone would say who has found a way to not count his own sins and sinfulness against himself.

fhansen said:

I don't see how that works. If there are consequences, then the sins are counted against him. In your theology, however, no sins past, present, or future seem to be counted against him because his salvation is guaranteed regardless.

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I meant to include all sins, even the little ones. Sorry, I forgot that point.