By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

[fhansen]

I know that people can look at the law and its requiremnts for righteousness and conclude that their partial obedience fulfills its requirements. I just don't think it's a good long-term strategy.

Neither is remaining in their unrighteousness.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Neither is remaining in their unrighteousness.

Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


The New King James Version (Lk 18:9–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

When we don't know we are a sinner. or feel we have our own righteousness and do not need God's, it is not a good position to be in Heb 10:26-30 compared to knowing we are a sinner and knowing we need a Savior and can't obey God's laws on our own, we need Him John 14:15-18

What I do not beleive this parable is telling us that its okay to sin. The Pharisees were not keeping God's law and Paul makes it clear doing so is dishonoring God.

Rom 2:21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.

 

[fhansen]

Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


The New King James Version (Lk 18:9–14). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

Yes, there's no other path to true righteousness than that of humility, to first acknowledge our own unrighteousness rather than proclaim our righteousness as if we already possesed it, apart from God. God is the source of the real thing and He bestows the real thing, real righteousness, as He sends the Holy Spirit to those who turn and bow before Him.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections." Augustine

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Yes, there's no other path to true righteousness than that of humility, to first acknowledge our own unrighteousness rather than proclaim our righteousness as if we already possesed it, apart from God. God is the source of the real thing and He bestows the real thing, real righteousness, as He sends the Holy Spirit to those who turn and bow before Him.

"This is the very perfection of a man, to find out his own imperfections." Augustine

This sounds good at first blush, but it falls apart quickly. True righteous and holiness is definatley a free gift received by those humbled by their sins and who find refuge in Christ. But after receiving it, humility continues because of the unrighteousness which still exists in the flesh and which still works its way into our conscious and subconscious actions. Because of the Spirit's true righteousness and holiness and because of our oneness with Him in spirit, we are aware of our sins and the sinfulness of our flesh. We do not like being in this skin of flesh and we desire to be free from it. But no matter how hard we pray for it to be taken away, the answer is always the same -- "My forgiveness is enough for you. Continue walking in it." At no point do we ever get comfortable with our sins, no matter how small, and at no point do we ever think that what we are able to muster up in the flesh is good enough to satisfy God's requirements for righteousness. At no point do we ever place our confidence in the flesh.

This, of course, is our attitude toward the flesh. But our attitude toward the Spirit is different. Jesus literally resides in us. From the intimacy of our own hearts, He leads, guides, directs, corrects, and comforts us. Through the miracle of spiritual birth, we have been joined to Him and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17). It is there, in our union with Him that our righteousness exists. His righteousness has become our righteousness because we are one spirit with Him. And as Scripture promises, if we adopt the mindset that we are one with Christ in the new man and walk in lock step with Him where He leads, then we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is so because the desires of the flesh are in adversarial opposition to the desires of the Spirit, and the result of carrying out the Spirit's desires is that the desires of the flesh are left unfulfilled.

You want to make our relationship with God contingent on the righteousness or unrighteousness of our deeds. And you think the righteousness we have by virtue of our oneness with Chist is "pretend" righteousness. This is the opposite of reality. Nobody's deeds will ever be righteous enough to earn eternal life, no matter how much "help" they think they get from the Lord. The only way to make it into heaven is to receive His mercy and to become one spirit with the Lord through union with Him.

We have discussed this issue several times. It always comes back to the same place. I do not know what else I can say to move you off self-reliance (I know you say you are not self-reliant). But don't you have to admit that if a person were to sin so bad that his relationship with God is severed, it is not because He failed to give that person the help he needed to succeed? I don't know how you could concede this point withoout concluding, as I have, that success or failure in your scenario is wholey dependent on the individual's performance. Isn't that works by definition?

 

[fhansen]

You want to make our relationship with God contingent on the righteousness or unrighteousness of our deeds.

I'm saying that being a believer:
1) is not a license to remain in our sins, not even close
2) does not guarantee immunity from sin

To the extent that you can reconcile these two positions you'll better understand the gospel. It's about a partnership, a realtionship that man was created for, and that he has a certain responsibility for maintaining as with any realtionship. Sin/unrighteousness can most definitely destroy that relationship wth God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I'm saying that being a believer:
1) is not a license to remain in our sins, not even close
2) does not guarantee immunity from sin

To the extent that you can reconcile these two positions you'll better understand the gospel. It's about a partnership, a realtionship that man was created for, and that he has a certain responsibility for maintaining as with any realtionship. Sin/unrighteousness can most definitely destroy that relationship wth God.

Yes, it tells us this verbatim in Scripture

Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated you from your God;
And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear.

If sinning or breaking God's law is ok, than God would have never removed 1/3 if the angels from heaven. Adam and Eve would not have been separated from the Tree of Life and not died. It’s not common sense to believe we can do exactly what others did before us and expect a different result. We were even warned not to Heb 4:11

Disobeying God and living is the same lie that deceived our first parents that is sadly still deceiving the multitude.

The Bible clearly tells us this is not the path

Heb 10: 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” [g]says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Instead we need a conversion obedience from the heart, leaving the old man behind walking in newness with Christ, Is Christ going to lead anyone to worship other gods, vain His holy name, steal, lie or break the least of these commandments the opposite of what Jesus kept and taught as our example? 1 Peter 2:21-22 Of course not.

Keeping God's law wont save us, but it is a consequence of our salvation and a good way to test ourselves if we are in the faith. If we see sin in our life 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:11-12 Rom 3:20 we should be spending more time in prayer asking Jesus help in moving the mountains in our lives. Prov 28:13

This is the faith the reconciles us

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I'm saying that being a believer:
1) is not a license to remain in our sins, not even close
2) does not guarantee immunity from sin

To the extent that you can reconcile these two positions you'll better understand the gospel. It's about a partnership, a realtionship that man was created for, and that he has a certain responsibility for maintaining as with any realtionship. Sin/unrighteousness can most definitely destroy that relationship wth God.

I think I see what you're saying. You are saying...

1) A believer does not have God's permission to sin after salvation, and
2) If a believer sins, then he fails to live up to his responsibility for maintaining his relationship with God and he must pay the consequences.

This sounds like something someone would say who has found a way to not count his own sins and sinfulness against himself.

 

[fhansen]

I think I see what you're saying. You are saying...

1) A believer does not have God's permission to sin after salvation, and
2) If a believer sins, then he fails to live up to his responsibility for maintaining his relationship with God and he must pay the consequences.

This sounds like something someone would say who has found a way to not count his own sins and sinfulness against himself.

I don't see how that works. If there are consequences, then the sins are counted against him. In your theology, however, no sins past, present, or future seem to be counted against him because his salvation is guaranteed regardless.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't see how that works. If there are consequences, then the sins are counted against him. In your theology, however, no sins past, present, or future seem to be counted against him because his salvation is guaranteed regardless.

I meant to include all sins, even the little ones. Sorry, I forgot that point.

 

[fhansen]

I meant to include all sins, even the little ones. Sorry, I forgot that point.

To me, this highlights the inconsistency and weakness of your position. I'm sure I've asked the question before but, should a believer hope to enter heaven if persisting in wanton, grave sin? And, related, is a believer guaranteed to fully overcome sin in this life?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

To me, this highlights the inconsistency and weakness of your position. I'm sure I've asked the question before but, should a believer hope to enter heaven if persisting in wanton, grave sin? And, related, is a believer guaranteed to fully overcome sin in this life?

I think the key to understanding your position is a statement you made way back that, paraphrasing, a person does not need to be perfect in this life to obtain eternal life, he just needs to be good enough. This is the glue which holds together your statement and questions above. There is no way I would ever consider adopting that POV because to do so would be to stop trusting that eternal life is mine because Jesus' sacrifice covers all my sins. It would be a bad trade in my opinon to stop trusting in Christ and start trusing in myself.

 

[fhansen]

I think the key to understanding your position is a statement you made way back that, paraphrasing, a person does not need to be perfect in this life to obtain eternal life, he just needs to be good enough. This is the glue which holds together your statement and questions above. There is no way I would ever consider adopting that POV because to do so would be to stop trusting that eternal life is mine because Jesus' sacrifice covers all my sins. It would be a bad trade in my opinon to stop trusting in Christ and start trusing in myself.

I've already said this in many ways but, a core component of the gospel is that, because you trust in Jesus, because you now rely on God and not yourself (self-reliance to the exclusion of God being Adam's sin), you can finally become the being you were created to be.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

That trust makes you a "God-person", so to speak, one of His, and He now puts His law in your mind and writes it on your heart. The gospel begins with and hinges on that turning to Him, the Creator, instead of the creature. But we're still just covering the same old ground here. Did you read the post I referenced? It highlights some of the issues that one must face in this matter and at least then we'd have something further to discuss. As it is you still haven't answered the questions I posed-you've just avoided them while unconsciously ending up with a position that, in effect, probably isn't so different from the ancient one-and mine. I doubt you believe that a person can sin egregiously, persistently, and enter heaven despite any professed trust in Jesus and in His vicarious righteousness being imputed, while I also doubt you believe that a person can totally overcome sin in this life.

I'm saying that, as long as we're on that path, now with God, then we're a work in progress, heading towards our purpose, our telos, our perfection that we were made for. But if we're sinning away, then we're not with Him to begin with-or we've turned back away from Him, jumped off the path. God forgives sin and empowers you to overcome it. You just have to do it His way; that's the point. He didn't create you to sin and certainly has the power to bring His creation into the righteousness/justice that He created it for. He just doesn't do it apart from you; it's a partnership, by His design. Adam forsook the partnership and when you look around and within, and see the ugliness, the selfishness, the pride that causes all the needless destruction and suffering that this world has known, it's all because of that separateness from God. And His purpose isn't to just pretend that you're righteous or perfect when you're not but to get you onto the "journey to perfection" as some have called it, a journey that is independent of the law but which can actually accomplish what the law could not. A journey with God that begins in this life and extends throughout eternity, where sin and the law that sin necessitated increasingly become relics and vague memories of a long distant past.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I've already said this in many ways but, a core component of the gospel is that, because you trust in Jesus, because you now rely on God and not yourself (self-reliance to the exclusion of God being Adam's sin), you can finally become the being you were created to be.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6

That trust makes you a "God-person", so to speak, one of His, and He now puts His law in your mind and writes it on your heart. The gospel begins with and hinges on that turning to Him, the Creator, instead of the creature. But we're still just covering the same old ground here.

I'm saying that, as long as we're on that path, now with God, then we're a work in progress, heading towards our purpose, our telos, our perfection that we were made for. But if we're sinning away, then we're not with Him to begin with-or we've turned back away from Him, jumped off the path. God forgives sin and empowers you to overcome it. You just have to do it His way; that's the point. He didn't create you to sin and certainly has the power to bring His creation into the righteousness/justice that He created it for. He just doesn't do it apart from you; it's a partnership, by His design.

Let's move the ball forward on this hypothetical "God person", "one of His", and in whom "He now puts His law in his mind and writes it on his heart". For the sake of argument, let's assume that as you mention above he is now not "on the path with God", is not "heading toward perfection", is "sinning away", and has "jumped off the path". This was in spite of His sin being "forgiven" and God's "empowerment to overcome it". He did not do it God's way. Does this person have anyone to blame other than himself? Doesn't he deserve all the credit for his downfall? Certainly, God's empowerment to overcome sin was not faulty, right? But if he had stayed on the path this would not be to his credit, right? We couldn't say he proved himself worthy, right? Doesn't consistency say if he failed, it was proof he was never a "God person" at all? Otherwise, how would the reward be a gift that was not earned?

Did you read the post I referenced? It highlights some of the issues that one must face in this matter and at least then we'd have something further to discuss. As it is you still haven't answered the questions I posed-you've just avoided them while unconsciously ending up with a position that, in effect, probably isn't so different from the ancient one-and mine. I doubt you believe that a person can sin egregiously, persistently, and enter heaven despite any professed trust in Jesus and in His vicarious righteousness being imputed, while I also doubt you believe that a person can totally overcome sin in this life.

I answered the question by saying I do not distinguish between big sins and little sins. I could also say I do not distinguish between frequent sins and infrequent sins or sins of the heart verses physical sins. All sins are bad, whether big or little, frequent or infrequent, or internal or external. And every sin, even small infrequent internal sins must be forgiven by God.

Adam forsook the partnership and when you look around and within, and see the ugliness, the selfishness, the pride that causes all the needless destruction and suffering that this world has known, it's all because of that separateness from God. And His purpose isn't to just pretend that you're righteous or perfect when you're not but to get you onto the "journey to perfection" as some have called it, a journey that is independent of the law but which can actually accomplish what the law could not. A journey with God that begins in this life and extends throughout eternity, where sin and the law that sin necessitated increasingly become relics and vague memories of a long distant past.

I agree with you that sin comes from the heart. That's why Jesus said the outside would take care of itself if we cleaned the inside first (Matt 23:26). But you do not believe that the inside can be clean. You call it "pretend righteousness".

 

[fhansen]

Doesn't consistency say if he failed, it was proof he was never a "God person" at all? Otherwise, how would the reward be a gift that was not earned?

Based on that, how would he or you even begin to know if he was a God person or not since you don't distinguish between big sins and little sins? How could you identify his failure?

 

[fhansen]

But you do not believe that the inside can be clean. You call it "pretend righteousness".

Depending on your theology, I understood you to mean that man's righteousness is strictly a forensically declared one by imputing Christ's righteousness to us rather than causing righteousness within us. And if that's the case then there is no cleanliness wrought by becoming justified. In my theology, we are made clean at justification by being both forgiven of sin, and made new creations empowered to now overcome it. There's a real change that takes place by virtue of becoming a "God person", a child of God. And becoming one, turning to Him, is not only seeking forgiveness but it's actually to turn away from the world and it's false values, from it's sin. If we do sin however, and then later, with a change of heart, repent and confess, we're purified again, as per 1 John 1. And then we're to remain that way, to sin no more in order to be considered one of his children, as per 1 John 3. Unless, of course, one believes in some kind of a "pretend righteousness".

 

[fhansen]

In Catholic theology, any merit that man receives is strictly by virtue of the work God does in us. We work, but only as we remain in Him and are doing His will, enabled and prompted by his grace. Man's only option is to say "no" to that work, to that grace. Again, grace is resistible, meaning man still has the freedom to resist and refuse it. The gospel makes no sense without that possibility. We have no need to even hear God's word without that possibility. His whole purpose is to guide and steer us back away from the choice that Adam freely made, unto a choice for Him again.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Based on that, how would he or you even begin to know if he was a God person or not since you don't distinguish between big sins and little sins? How could you identify his failure?

When I look in my heart, I see Jesus living in there (Ro 8:9-10; 2 Cor 13:5). That's how I know I have His eternal life (1 Jn 5:11-12).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Depending on your theology, I understood you to mean that man's righteousness is strictly a forensically declared one by imputing Christ's righteousness to us rather than causing righteousness within us. And if that's the case then there is no cleanliness wrought by becoming justified.

No, my theology says it is true righteousness and holiness due to our union with Christ. Yes, it is internal, but it shines out to the world when we walk in lock step with Him.

In my theology, we are made clean at justification by being both forgiven of sin, and made new creations empowered to now overcome it.

This is close to what I believe, but I see it as complete victory in the inner man over sin's power because we are one with Christ. In terms of the flesh, I don't see it as reformable. But I do see us as forgiven.

There's a real change that takes place by virtue of becoming a "God person", a child of God. And becoming one, turning to Him, is not only seeking forgiveness but it's actually to turn away from the world and it's false values, from it's sin.

Again, this is close to what I believe, but I see the change of nature as a permanent separation from sin to God, not as something that is earned over time.

If we do sin however, and then later, with a change of heart, repent and confess, we're purified again, as per 1 John 1. And then we're to remain that way, to sin no more in order to be considered one of his children, as per 1 John 3. Unless, of course, one believes in some kind of a "pretend righteousness".

I thought you were saying you understood that getting a new heart in which righteousness dwells was something that really happens to a person. But now you are saying it is no different than the life you got from Adam.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

In Catholic theology, any merit that man receives is strictly by virtue of the work God does in us. We work, but only as we remain in Him and are doing His will, enabled and prompted by his grace. Man's only option is to say "no" to that work, to that grace. Again, grace is resistible, meaning man still has the freedom to resist and refuse it. The gospel makes no sense without that possibility. We have no need to even hear God's word without that possibility. His whole purpose is to guide and steer us back away from the choice that Adam freely made, unto a choice for Him again.

In my theology, all my righteousness is as filthy rags (Isa 64:6). But having been set free from sin and having become a slave of God, I have my fruit which is holiness and in the end eternal life. My sins did earn me eternal death, but now I have God's free gift of eternal life...

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Ro 6:22–23)​