No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Brightfame52 · Sunday at 3:17 AM

enoob57 said:
John 12:31-32 (KJV)

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Thats Jesus own testimony that through His Death He will save all for whom He died. See Drawing is salvation, that person is saved when drawn. And this had nothing to do with their own freewill, it only has to so with Christ being lifted up ! The all is necessarily limited to the saved.

enoob57 · Sunday at 6:14 AM

Brightfame52 said:
all is necessarily limited to the saved.

I am glad that you have admitted this… your doctrine your theology it forms what the scripture ought to say… this is called
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to justify or confirm a position already held.

all men is exactly that ’all men’ and the idea is supported by this verse
1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Brightfame52 · Sunday at 12:28 PM

enoob57 said:
I am glad that you have admitted this… your doctrine your theology it forms what the scripture ought to say… this is called
Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to justify or confirm a position already held.

all men is exactly that ’all men’ and the idea is supported by this verse
1 John 2:2 (KJV)
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The all is limited to all the saved.

Rescued One · Sunday at 9:24 PM

Fervent said:
Calvinism makes God double-minded. 2 wills, 2 gospels, 2 loves. What Calvinists don't seem to realize about their doctrine is that if God truly is that capricious then they have no basis for trusting His promises...because He is not required to honor His word.

You don't understand that people don't have power to resist or thwart God's will. God is sovereign.

Fervent · Sunday at 9:26 PM

Rescued One said:
You don't understand that people don't have power to resist or thwart God's will. God is sovereign.

You're imposing a philosophical understanding on that word. Yeah, God is sovereign but that doesn't mean what Calvinists impose upon it.

Rescued One · Sunday at 9:33 PM

Fervent said:
Right, you have no part in your salvation. You're just a puppet with no choice in the matter

. And the Bible makes no distinction between sanctification and justification, that's a human doctrine arising in the 16th century.

Jesus sure could have simplified his response to the rich young ruler's question if He were a Calvinist. "What must I do to be saved?" "Be chosen by God, nothing you can do if you're not among those lucky few."

Saved Christians are not puppets. They are born again. Ephesians 2:1-13.

Fervent · Sunday at 9:34 PM

Rescued One said:
Saved Christians are not puppets. They are born again. Ephesians 3:1-13.

At what point do they gain the ability to do something other than what the Calvinist puppetmaster image of God decrees?

Rescued One · Sunday at 9:37 PM

Fervent said:
You're imposing a philosophical understanding on that word. Yeah, God is sovereign but that doesn't mean what Calvinists impose upon it.

I'm sorry that you don't know my God, His power, or His will.

Ephesians 2:1-13.

No one can thwart His will.

Fervent · Sunday at 9:38 PM

Rescued One said:
I'm sorry that you don't know my God, His power, or His will.

Ephesians 2:1-13.

No one can thwart His will.

Which will is that? The one that desires all men be saved?

Rescued One · Sunday at 10:00 PM

Fervent said:
At what point do they gain the ability to do something other than what the Calvinist puppetmaster image of God decrees?

Do you think sinners can thwart God's will? I don't. I gave you Ephesians 2:1-13. Perhaps you didn't read it.

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, “Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Job 42:2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Please be more reverent than calling God a puppetmaster; you sound angry.

Rescued One · Sunday at 10:01 PM

Fervent said:
Which will is that? The one that desires all men be saved?

If you are a univeralist, so be it.

Fervent · Sunday at 10:03 PM

Rescued One said:
Do you think sinners can thwart God's will? I don't. I gave you Ephesians 2:1-13. Perhaps you didn't read it.

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, “Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Job 42:2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

Please be more reverent than calling God a puppetmaster; you sound angry.

I'm not angry, but Calvinist's vision of God is a puppetmaster. I'm not calling God that, because the Calivinist version of God is not the God of the Bible.

Rescued One said:
If you are a univeralist, so be it.

I'm not, but I don't need to pretend that God commands what He would not have to not be. So which will is it that man cannot thwart? The one that desires all men be saved?

Rescued One · Sunday at 10:10 PM

Fervent said:
I'm not angry, but Calvinist's vision of God is a puppetmaster. I'm not calling God that, because the Calivinist version of God is not the God of the Bible.

I'm not, but I don't need to pretend that God commands what He would not have to not be. So which will is it that man cannot thwart? The one that desires all men be saved?

If you are not a Universalist, why aren't all men saved?

Fervent · Sunday at 10:14 PM

Rescued One said:
If you are not a Universalist, why aren't all men saved?

God has determined to give men free will. Now your turn, why aren't all men saved if God desires all men to be saved?

Rescued One · Sunday at 10:32 PM

He saves all that He will save.

Romans 9
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

That's all I can share tonight.

Fervent · Sunday at 11:40 PM

Rescued One said:
He saves all that He will save.

Romans 9
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

That's all I can share tonight.

You shouldn't stop there...how about reading until:
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

So if the only thing that matters is God's will, then are all saved? If not, why not?

pasifika · 2025-07-21T02:38:01-0500

Brightfame52 said:
Then you have a stupid god. He knew if he created a person that the person was going to sin up all grace and die and go to hell for their sins, yet with his dumb self, he created him anyway, knowing no matter how many opportunities he gives him, he is going to spurn them away and die a fool. Does that sound like a all wise God to you, even a loving God ? Sounds like a fool

sorry to jump in and interrupt your conversation with the other poster..but Romans 9:20-22 will address your point.

Jack Terrence · 2025-07-21T05:19:42-0500

Brightfame52 said:
All men are slaves to sin, ethnicity has nothing to do

Brightfame52 said:
All men are slaves to sin, ethnicity has nothing to do with it

First, where did Jesus say that all men are slaves to sin? He said that whosoever commits sin is the slave of sin (John 8:31) "Whosoever" is not every man. Second, he was speaking to believers being set free from sin by continuing in his word.

31Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed in Him, “If you continue in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

Jack Terrence · 2025-07-21T05:26:30-0500

Rescued One said:
He saves all that He will save.

Romans 9
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,b but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26“And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

That's all I can share tonight.

Chapter 9 is not the whole story. Chapter 10 says that faith was made accessible to every Jew because God had put the word of faith in the heart of every one of them. And chapter 11 says that the hardening of those who were cut off was only temporary, and that they would be grafted in again if they continued not in unbelief. Verse 32 says that God had consigned them all of them to disobedience that he might have mercy on all of them.

Tell the WHOLE story.

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-21T06:46:38-0500

A main reason why the natural man cannot believe in Christ or come to Christ in Faith is because by nature man is a unbeliever, for God has concluded all men naturally, as sinners in unbelief Rom 11:32

32 For God hath concluded them all[jew and gentile] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

This is why for man to believe in Christ it takes the Power of God, God must work Faith in us, thats also called His having Mercy on a man. 9

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

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