Angels

honey badger · Tuesday at 8:41 AM

Jerry N. said:
One thing I know for sure is that God doesn’t play hide and seek.

"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness,"

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out".
1

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 8:53 AM

honey badger said:
"But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness,"

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field.

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out".
1

Those verses are true, but that is not what I mean. Matthew 7:9-11:

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

If you want God to tell you what He wants you to do, He will tell you. If He doesn’t, you are not listening, or God is giving you free will. Your choices might not have an effect on the outcome, because God’s plan might allow you several paths.

honey badger · Tuesday at 8:57 AM

Jerry N. said:
Those verses are true, but that is not what I mean. Matthew 7:9-11:

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

If you want God to tell you what He wants you to do, He will tell you. If He doesn’t, you are not listening, or God is giving you free will. Your choices might not have an effect on the outcome, because God’s plan might allow you several paths.

so what did you mean then ?

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 9:16 AM

honey badger said:
so what did you mean then ?

I mean, if you are sitting there thinking “What does God want me to do?” then pray. If you think He has answered, see if it agrees with Scripture. If it does, act. If you think He hasn’t answered, then be willing to wait or make your own choice. God once told me what I should do very quietly and gently. I didn’t listen until I was in the hospital and had no other choice. Other times, it was obvious that He had given me more than one good choice. If you want to do what God wants you to do, trust Him to make things clear, kind of like Gideon, but you don’t need wool. Another thing I learned is that God sometimes wants you to do the same thing you want to do, so there is no need for discussion or questioning. Anyway, God loves you and will tell you what He wants if needed.

honey badger · Tuesday at 9:23 AM

Jerry N. said:
I mean, if you are sitting there thinking “What does God want me to do?” then pray. If you think He has answered, see if it agrees with Scripture. If it does, act. If you think He hasn’t answered, then be willing to wait or make your own choice. God once told me what I should do very quietly and gently. I didn’t listen until I was in the hospital and had no other choice. Other times, it was obvious that He had given me more than one good choice. If you want to do what God wants you to do, trust Him to make things clear, kind of like Gideon, but you don’t need wool. Another thing I learned is that God sometimes wants you to do the same thing you want to do, so there is no need for discussion or questioning. Anyway, God loves you and will tell you what He wants if needed.

so if you want to know something which is hidden\concealed from you ... you seek it out by asking God to reveal it to you ...

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out".

Aseyesee · Tuesday at 9:25 AM

Jerry N. said:
I’m a little confused with this discussion, and I feel I’m missing an important point. The way I see it at this point is as follows: Angels are real and they visit people and help them. Devils are real and they pretend to be angels of light and deceive people. People imagine things and think that they are getting divine guidance. Which thing is happening is not always clear. If you study the Scriptures carefully and find that there is no conflict with the “revelation” somebody has had, then one must decide what to do about it.

I was in one congregation where a good Christian man had a message from God that an important event was soon to happen. Everybody believed him and put a lot of work and money into preparations, including the man with the message. Nothing happened, but nothing went to waste that I know of. Was it like Jonah, and Nineveh repented? Only God knows, but the cooperation, good works, and devotion in action were all positive things. It wasn’t like people selling everything, because somebody said that the rapture would happen next week. Everybody could see that no real harm would be done if the message was not true, and nobody was angry afterwards.

One thing I know for sure is that God doesn’t play hide and seek. If you are a Christian and doing something contrary to God’s plan, He will make it clear, and you may not like how He does it. Anyway, I would like to know what I’m missing in this debate.

Books have been written about the end times (big money maker) and updated by their authors when what they say does not come to pass (and one would have to assume they believed they were told these things by angels or even the spirit of God (good thing people don’t stone those who call themselves prophets for unfulfilled utterances), and all of it is disconnected from where, and in whom God is revealing his son (which is all about relationship); to which angels facilitate on a personnel level and not intended to lead or teach any one (other than a spiritual gift … That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me), and conforms to what the Holy Spirit has already been leading you into (such as the new name written on a white stone).

I’m not saying angels do not physically help people (David believed this, Paul believed this, as well as Jesus (an eye witness said that they saw a hand pull me back from death, though I had no such experience with my accident, and never gave it another thought) … but angels can be people who are unaware of their role that they are playing in light of the process of the revealing of this son we are in us; which comes under the heading of a pasture without us … but trees, grass, the sun, the moon, clouds, rivers, leaves, etc. etc. etc. all speak to this same process in us as part and parcel of the language of God …

There are places of seeing from that (from cover to cover) in scripture are represented by the denomination of three, as is the case with the war in heaven, and a/the third that were drew and cast to the earth by a tail of a dragon) ...

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 9:45 AM

honey badger said:
so if you want to know something which is hidden\concealed from you ... you seek it out by asking God to reveal it to you ...

"It is the glory of God to conceal things, but the glory of kings is to search things out".

That is about it, except there are things God doesn’t want you to know at this time and place. Ask all you want about things that will be revealed in the future or about things that are not your business, and God probably won’t tell you. Sometimes, God knows you are not ready, so He waits until you are.

Aseyesee said:
Books have been written about the end times (big money maker) and updated by their authors when what they say does not come to pass (and one would have to assume they believed they were told these things by angels or even the spirit of God (good thing people don’t stone those who call themselves prophets for unfulfilled utterances), and all of it is disconnected from where, and in whom God is revealing his son (which is all about relationship); to which angels facilitate on a personnel level and not intended to lead or teach any one (other than a spiritual gift … That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me), and conforms to what the Holy Spirit has already been leading you into (such as the new name written on a white stone).

I’m not saying angels do not physically help people (David believed this, Paul believed this, as well as Jesus (an eye witness said that they saw a hand pull me back from death, though I had no such experience with my accident, and never gave it another thought) … but angels can be people who are unaware of their role that they are playing in light of the process of the revealing of this son we are in us; which comes under the heading of a pasture without us … but trees, grass, the sun, the moon, clouds, rivers, leaves, etc. etc. etc. all speak to this same process in us as part and parcel of the language of God …

There are places of seeing from that (from cover to cover) in scripture are represented by the denomination of three, as is the case with the war in heaven, and a/the third that were drew and cast to the earth by a tail of a dragon) ...

If you are saying that God reveals and does all sorts of things that our limited minds attribute to angels, then I agree with you. As long as God is given the glory. It is not always for us to know if angels were involved or not. It is enough to know God did something that we should praise Him for. Do I have that right?

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 9:47 AM

I didn't mean to reply to both posts at once. I don't know how it happens.

honey badger · Tuesday at 9:54 AM

Jerry N. said:
That is about it, except there are things God doesn’t want you to know at this time and place. Ask all you want about things that will be revealed in the future or about things that are not your business, and God probably won’t tell you. Sometimes, God knows you are not ready, so He waits until you are.

so are you not sure about this statement then

Jerry N. said:
One thing I know for sure is that God doesn’t play hide and seek.

or do you still hold to it

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 10:09 AM

The reply button is acting up again, but this is to answer Honey badger above.
If you ask God and He wants you to know, He will make it known. He isn’t coy, but he expects you to do a little work. George Washington Carver asked God to teach him everything about the peanut. God said, “Your brain is too small.” However, nobody knew more about the peanut than Carver after years of study.

Aseyesee · Tuesday at 10:24 AM

Jerry N. said:
If you are saying that God reveals and does all sorts of things that our limited minds attribute to angels, then I agree with you. As long as God is given the glory. It is not always for us to know if angels were involved or not. It is enough to know God did something that we should praise Him for. Do I have that right?

You do ... but it is first and foremost not about that which is outside of the city ... so to speak ... when we enter into his word, his word begins to be revealed all around us, and to this revealing all of it begins to speak to (both seen and unseen) though it has always spoken thus), which is not separate from the purpose God purposed in himself.

It shouldn't be any stranger thing to us then being equal with God ...

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 10:30 AM

Aseyesee said:
You do ... but it is first and foremost not about that which is outside of the city ... so to speak ... when we enter into his word, his word begins to be revealed all around us, and to this revealing all of it begins to speak to (both seen and unseen) though it has always spoken thus), which is not separate from the purpose God purposed in himself.

It shouldn't be any stranger thing to us then being equal with God ...

I see what you mean, but I have to mill it over until tomorrow.

honey badger · Tuesday at 10:37 AM

Jerry N. said:
The reply button is acting up again, but this is to answer Honey badger above.
If you ask God and He wants you to know, He will make it known. He isn’t coy, but he expects you to do a little work. George Washington Carver asked God to teach him everything about the peanut. God said, “Your brain is too small.” However, nobody knew more about the peanut than Carver after years of study.

i am more looking for a yes or no answer ... not to corner you for the futility of point scoring, but rather to show how our own reasoning betrays us and why we should reason with Him, which is one and the same as to seek out the truth ...

Jerry N. · Tuesday at 10:59 AM

honey badger said:
i am more looking for a yes or no answer ... not to corner you for the futility of point scoring, but rather to show how our own reasoning betrays us and why we should reason with Him, which is one and the same as to seek out the truth ...

“Hide and seek” was just a metaphor. “Coy” is better, but it still falls short. Let’s say you ask God, “Should I go into the ministry?” If He wants you to, He will make it clear to you. If you ask Him about the meaning of the beast in Revelation, He will lead you into study, but it might not be the right time to know. Discovering His teachings in Scriptures or the complications of the peanut is getting to know Him and His creation, which is a form a worship and brings knowledge of Him. The journey to the truth is as important as the goal. No offense to you, but I have to stop posting for today.

CoreyD · Tuesday at 10:03 PM

Jerry N. said:
I’m a little confused with this discussion, and I feel I’m missing an important point.

Being confused about a discussion on CF, is often expected.

Jerry N. said:
The way I see it at this point is as follows: Angels are real and they visit people and help them.

This is one reason there is confusion.
People say things, and never use the Bible, especially on a sub-forum called Christian Scriptures, where scriptures are required... and they spend their time on the thread making post after post, page after page, without using one single scripture.
They make claims, in other words.

Jerry N. said:
Devils are real and they pretend to be angels of light and deceive people. People imagine things and think that they are getting divine guidance. Which thing is happening is not always clear. If you study the Scriptures carefully and find that there is no conflict with the “revelation” somebody has had, then one must decide what to do about it.

I was in one congregation where a good Christian man had a message from God that an important event was soon to happen. Everybody believed him and put a lot of work and money into preparations, including the man with the message. Nothing happened, but nothing went to waste that I know of. Was it like Jonah, and Nineveh repented? Only God knows, but the cooperation, good works, and devotion in action were all positive things. It wasn’t like people selling everything, because somebody said that the rapture would happen next week. Everybody could see that no real harm would be done if the message was not true, and nobody was angry afterwards.

One thing I know for sure is that God doesn’t play hide and seek. If you are a Christian and doing something contrary to God’s plan, He will make it clear, and you may not like how He does it. Anyway, I would like to know what I’m missing in this debate.

For one thing, Jerry, the thread was not made to argue about whether or not someone was visited by an angel of God, or an angel of Satan, but since the subject is 'Angels', and someone made the claim they were visited by God's angel, they should scripturally back it up. Especially since the claim was opposed with scripture.

So far they have not, and where the scriptures challenge their claim, they have nothing to say except repeat their claim, and basically say that one cannot see what they see, or know what they know... Like Jim Jones, and David Koresh did.

I hope you didn't miss that.
The other thing is, I am not interested in bouncing claims.
I don't argue against claims (it's customary on CF to fill a whole thread with them). I use scriptures against them, and if they are repeated without any scriptural support at all, I dismiss them.
So, I'm at this point waiting for a scripture. I asked, but got this. Which basically says what?

So, you actually aren't the only one confused about this debate.
Whereas I thought this sub-forum was for the interpretation and explanation (exegesis) of Bible books, chapters or verses. Which entails that scripture is provided with your explanation of the scripture for discussion and study. Or, the study of the Bible and Scriptures through interpretation and translation, repeatedly I am confronted with persons who are just happy to throw their claims around on the thread, and declare that they are good to be acceptable.

Both Jesus, and the Statement of Purpose of this sub-forum, however, says "Not". I hope that helps.
If it did, perhaps you could go back and show me scripturally that angels "visit people and help them".

It's important to note too Jerry, the scripture do not support the view that certain scriptural topics aren't important so long as you believe others. Satan would have us believe we're good, just believing the milk of God's word.
However, we cannot have this view and at the same time agree with John 4:23, 24

CoreyD · Tuesday at 11:42 PM

Jerry N. said:
“Hide and seek” was just a metaphor. “Coy” is better, but it still falls short. Let’s say you ask God, “Should I go into the ministry?” If He wants you to, He will make it clear to you. If you ask Him about the meaning of the beast in Revelation, He will lead you into study, but it might not be the right time to know. Discovering His teachings in Scriptures or the complications of the peanut is getting to know Him and His creation, which is a form a worship and brings knowledge of Him. The journey to the truth is as important as the goal. No offense to you, but I have to stop posting for today.

I hope you don't mind if I ask.
How will God make it clear to you?

I know from Acts 8:26-31 an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his return was sitting in his chariot reading Isaiah the prophet.
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”
So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Thereafter, the man understood the passage. Only because God directed Philip, by an angel, and holy spirit, o a man who was seeking, and Philip, who was a disciple of Christ, helped that man.
The man was a devout worshipper, but needed help from a chosen servant of God.
Is that not how God helps persons seeking to understand his will?

Aseyesee said:
but angels can be people who are unaware of their role that they are playing in light of the process of the revealing of this son we are in us; which comes under the heading of a pasture without us … but trees, grass, the sun, the moon, clouds, rivers, leaves, etc. etc. etc. all speak to this same process in us as part and parcel of the language of God …

We do not find this in the scriptures.
You appear to be presenting philosophy of a different source.
Please provide the source of your statements.

Jerry N. · 2025-07-16T04:25:06-0500

CoreyD said:
I hope you don't mind if I ask.
How will God make it clear to you?

I know from Acts 8:26-31 an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Get up and go south to the desert road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.”
So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official in charge of the entire treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. He had gone to Jerusalem to worship, and on his return was sitting in his chariot reading Isaiah the prophet.
The Spirit said to Philip, “Go over to that chariot and stay by it.”
So Philip ran up and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. “Do you understand what you are reading?” Philip asked.
“How can I,” he said, “unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Thereafter, the man understood the passage. Only because God directed Philip, by an angel, and holy spirit, o a man who was seeking, and Philip, who was a disciple of Christ, helped that man.
The man was a devout worshipper, but needed help from a chosen servant of God.
Is that not how God helps persons seeking to understand his will?

We do not find this in the scriptures.
You appear to be presenting philosophy of a different source.
Please provide the source of your statements.

I see the problem, and it is my mistake. I didn’t notice that Scriptures were required. I’m still learning my way around this forum, and I find angel stories interesting, so I made a poor assumption.

The Scriptures I would have used are Hebrews 13:2, Acts 12:5-17, and Acts 8:26-31 which you mentioned.

Sometimes, when life is hard and faith is fading, stories about people, particularly children, seeing angels is a bit encouraging. It may not always be Scriptural in the strictest sense, but the stories give people hope that God is intervening in daily affairs.

You wrote, “I hope you don't mind if I ask.

How will God make it clear to you?”

I can’t speak for anybody but myself, and God communicates to those who love Him in various ways. That is why I posted Mathew 7:9-11. In my case, I had a pretty good idea about what God wanted me to do, at least in the short term. However, I was comfortable in my present situation and put off making a decision. Then, I had a bad accident and lost everything. I recovered physically, but only one door opened for me, which is the one I should have used before. My main point is that God loves His children and finds ways to communicate or lead them.

Jerry N. · 2025-07-16T04:26:28-0500

honey badger said:
i am more looking for a yes or no answer ... not to corner you for the futility of point scoring, but rather to show how our own reasoning betrays us and why we should reason with Him, which is one and the same as to seek out the truth ...

I can't really add more than I have written in #94.

Jerry N. · 2025-07-16T04:34:15-0500

Aseyesee said:
You do ... but it is first and foremost not about that which is outside of the city ... so to speak ... when we enter into his word, his word begins to be revealed all around us, and to this revealing all of it begins to speak to (both seen and unseen) though it has always spoken thus), which is not separate from the purpose God purposed in himself.

It shouldn't be any stranger thing to us then being equal with God ...

God surely reveals Himself in Scriptures and His creation, and we should always see ourselves within His realm and love. I have come across the idea of “It shouldn't be any stranger thing to us than being equal with God ...,” but it is topic worth avoiding. You can really get in the weeds and instigate all sorts of misunderstandings.

Aseyesee · 2025-07-16T07:31:06-0500

CoreyD said:
We do not find this in the scriptures.
You appear to be presenting philosophy of a different source.
Please provide the source of your statements.

“And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground”

“Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.”

“And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.”

“And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.”

Caiaphas who spoke by the Holy Ghost was a messenger of God … which is the definition of an angel … he was (as Peter put it) an oracle (one who has an utterance … which is a message) of God, which Peter encouraged all (men/mankind) to speak this way.

Every Sunday the faithful attend churches to hear just this, when all along they have no need that any man do this for them (like Moses did for the children of Israel); John backing up the words of Jesus as to where the source of revelation comes up out of; but in all this, it still does not express my (if you want to call it) encounters I have had over the years, and what to me they both were and spoke to (not knowing (like Caiaphas) they had (and neither did they need to know) for it was waters out of my own cistern) ...

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