• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

What's the use of faith alone?

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,413
8,120
50
The Wild West
✟750,625.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The Church Fathers saw it all, and indeed started half of them!

False, no heresy was started by an actual Church Father. In one isolated and lamentable case, Tertullian, a latin divine who coined the word “Trinitas”, apostatized and joined the Montanist sect, for he was seduced by their rigorism, but that sect was founded by a Montanus who claimed to be the Paraclete. There are two other cases of church fathers who are venerated by some but not by all, or who are controversial and not universally venerated, who some regard as heretics, namely Theodore of Mopsuestia and Origen.

Those three cases aside, setting aside the EO/OO schism and thus the unfortunate lack of complete mutual veneration that resulted from this (but partial mutual veneration exists; St. Romanos the Melodist being venerated in both churches, and possibly being Oriental Orthodox, St. Theodora likewise, and definitely Oriental Orthodox, and also St. John of Damascus, definitely Eastern Orthodox), no Church Father can be considered a heretic, much less an heresiarch, for the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Ones status as a church father is contingent upon one’s dogmatic orthodoxy. Thus, the likes of Arius, Nestorius, Valentinus, Marcion, Eutyches, Tatian, Bardesanes, Mani, et cetera, are not Church Fathers, for they were either never members of the church in the case of Mani, or apostasized in the case of Arius and Tatian, embracing doctrines incompatible with Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

XrxrX

Active Member
Jul 13, 2025
105
27
Not of this world
✟943.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Accusing the church fathers of starting heresies is quite an inflammatory charge, particularly coming from someone who speaks so highly of IFB. As for a rise in cults, I haven't seen an uptick but that may be a geographical thing. Patristic literature is extremely important because it gets us closer to the historical context of the NT and helps us understand what the concerns of the NT authors were. Avoiding such literature leads to anachronistic readings and the imposition of modern(well, 19th and 20th century) philosophical structures on the text.
Firstly, I encourage the study of Church History and the Patristic literature, you've misunderstood me on that. I don't vaunt them over scripture, I fully acknowledge their value. And second, I think you are confusing Church Fathers with Apostles. I would never in my life accuse the Apostles of heresy. I'm speaking of heresies that emerged out of the rhetorical conflicts of theologians in the early Church.. NOT the Apostles.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,413
8,120
50
The Wild West
✟750,625.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
They didn't "start" the Gnostic rot that undergirds so many of them,

There is no trace of Gnosticism in any recognized Church Father venerated as a Father of the Church by the Roman Catholics, traditional Anglicans, Confessional Lutherans, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox or the Assyrian Church of the East.

Some people allege that St. Augustine was influenced by the Manichaen religion he converted from under the influence of his Christian mother and St. Ambrose, but this is not true, as anyone with an intimate knowledge of the Manichaean faith will recognize the extreme difference between their doctrines and those of St. Augustine, and recognize this as an anti-monastic smear.

And of all of the Church Fathers, only St. Augustine has been, to my knowledge, accused of Gnostic ideas by any substantial number of people.

lighthearted tease

I’m sorry but its not appropriate to engage in ”lighthearted teasing“ over those who we as Orthodox Christians regard as holy men, on a par with the Prophets and Patriarchs of the Old Testament, in some cases Equal to the Apostles for their work in spreading the Gospel to new lands (for example, St. Gregory the Illuminator, St. Nino and Saints Cyril and Methodius), and who in a great many cases were martyrs and confessors, who were horribly tortured and gave their life to preserve the faith, for example, St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Polycarp, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Maximus the Confessor and indeed St. John Chyrsostom (who was death marched for criticizing the Empress for wasting money on a solid gold commode while people were starving in Constantinople).

These Church Fathers (and in the case of St. Nino, a Church Mother) are holy, bearing the image of Christ, having picked up their cross to follow Him, and having made their lives an icon of his life. Glorified in death, their lives are an icon of the life of Christ and a demonstration of the power of God’s grace to transform us and sanctify us entirely( the doctrine of Theosis, which John Wesley translated as “entire sanctification”*

*Wesley had a particular gift for taking ancient Greek terminology, for instance, Presbyter and Bishop, and translating it into modern English, referring to Presbyters as Elders and to Bishops as Superintendents - both of which are correct (although in the most contemporary modern dialect, due to the bureaucratic connotations of the word “superintendent” i.e. the Superintendent of Public Works and so on, Overseer would be preferable in modern American culture). That being said, I would prefer to keep the Greek words alive where possible, because the Greek language was uniquely expressive; and it is not a coincidence that God chose that language as the language in which the New Testament would be written, for it contains words capable of encapsulating Hebrew theological concepts, such as the Memra, encoded into Greek as Logos, as well as those aspects of God clarified by our Lord, for example, the three prosopa of the Trinity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jas3
Upvote 0

Fervent

Well-Known Member
Sep 22, 2020
6,621
2,845
45
San jacinto
✟203,282.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Firstly, I encourage the study of Church History and the Patristic literature, you've misunderstood me on that. I don't vaunt them over scripture, I fully acknowledge their value. And second, I think you are confusing Church Fathers with Apostles. I would never in my life accuse the Apostles of heresy. I'm speaking of heresies that emerged out of the rhetorical conflicts of theologians in the early Church.. NOT the Apostles.
Is there anyone who "vaunts them over scripture"? And accusing the Patristics of being heresiarchs is still a highly inflammatory charge.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,413
8,120
50
The Wild West
✟750,625.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I'm speaking of heresies that emerged out of the rhetorical conflicts of theologians in the early Church.. NOT the Apostles.

Such heresies do not exist - what you don’t seem to understand is the moment someone starts a heresy (which literally means sect or cult), they have founded a different religion, an alien religion, and have ceased to be Church Fathers, for they have anathematized themselves by preaching another Gospel according to Galatians 1:8-9.

Thus, the moment Arius denied that Christ was God incarnate, the uncreated and only begotten Son of God, of one essence with the Father, begotten of the Father in eternity before all ages, Arius cut himself off from the church and became the heresiarch of a new counterfeit religion, like Mormonism and J/Ws of today.
 
Upvote 0

Rose_bud

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...
Apr 9, 2010
1,129
478
South Africa
✟77,777.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I don't deny the value of the "sacraments," if you wish to call them that. Special observances can hold loose groups of Christians together in a pagan environment. And sacraments, along with religious calendars, have brought unity to Christian kingdoms.

But the reality is, these are just external observances which support the main idea: Christ in us, the hope of glory. It is our unity with God that is most important, and that is secured by our walk with God, and not dependent upon observance of rituals.

The sacraments mean things that are very important, but their external observance should not be confused with the internal reality they are intended to represent. Not all who are Water Baptized are Baptized in the Spirit. Not all who confess to a priest is fully repentant from the heart without reservation. External practices do not ensure the realty.
Yes, I'm in agreement with this, the observance can either draw one closer to God or it can be done as a reminder of what God has done. Although to some this appears as a mental nod of the head, but it is a spiritual engagement. If you will whenever we gather together in His name it is spiritual. How this spiritual engagement is understood depends largely on ones background and experience. It is a divine encounter both because of what it symbolises and what it represents when understood.
 
Upvote 0

XrxrX

Active Member
Jul 13, 2025
105
27
Not of this world
✟943.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
False, no heresy was started by an actual Church Father. In one isolated and lamentable case, Tertullian, a latin divine who coined the word “Trinitas”, apostatized and joined the Montanist sect, for he was seduced by their rigorism, but that sect was founded by a Montanus who claimed to be the Paraclete. There are two other cases of church fathers who are venerated by some but not by all, or who are controversial and not universally venerated, who some regard as heretics, namely Theodore of Mopsuestia and Origen.

Those three cases aside, setting aside the EO/OO schism and thus the unfortunate lack of complete mutual veneration that resulted from this (but partial mutual veneration exists; St. Romanos the Melodist being venerated in both churches, and possibly being Oriental Orthodox, St. Theodora likewise, and definitely Oriental Orthodox, and also St. John of Damascus, definitely Eastern Orthodox), no Church Father can be considered a heretic, much less an heresiarch, for the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

Ones status as a church father is contingent upon one’s dogmatic orthodoxy. Thus, the likes of Arius, Nestorius, Valentinus, Marcion, Eutyches, Tatian, Bardesanes, Mani, et cetera, are not Church Fathers, for they were either never members of the church in the case of Mani, or apostasized in the case of Arius and Tatian, embracing doctrines incompatible with Christianity.
I was using "Fathers" colloquially and being jocular.. I probably should be more careful with my language.
 
Upvote 0

XrxrX

Active Member
Jul 13, 2025
105
27
Not of this world
✟943.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Such heresies do not exist - what you don’t seem to understand is the moment someone starts a heresy (which literally means sect or cult), they have founded a different religion, an alien religion, and have ceased to be Church Fathers, for they have anathematized themselves by preaching another Gospel according to Galatians 1:8-9.

Thus, the moment Arius denied that Christ was God incarnate, the uncreated and only begotten Son of God, of one essence with the Father, begotten of the Father in eternity before all ages, Arius cut himself off from the church and became the heresiarch of a new counterfeit religion, like Mormonism and J/Ws of today.
And here you have the rift between Protestant and Catholic.. which makes it quite difficult for either "side" to be charitable. A tragedy indeed.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,251
14,894
PNW
✟952,998.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Apparently not given our excellent relations with the largest Protestant denominations (the Lutherans and the Anglicans) and the mass conversion of former Jesus People to the Antiochian church in 1990.

More recently we’ve been receiving so many converts from non-denominaitonal aliturgical Protestantism (Hank Haanegraaf and myself both did this in the 2010s, when it was known to happen but was not occurring en masse to the extent that our clergy are overloaded and we are facing a capacity crunch), as have our liturgical Protestant partners and the more traditional Roman Catholic parishes such as those which offer the Traditional Latin Mass.

Liturgical Christianity is ascendant, thankfully, after a few decades when it seemed like everyone wished to redefine worship as listening to Hillsong while dancing in a megachurch.
The thing with Hillsong and earlier versions such as Maranatha, is the resemblance to the Psalms. With many songs containing what's written in the Psalms.
 
Upvote 0

chevyontheriver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Sep 29, 2015
22,645
19,674
Flyoverland
✟1,350,468.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
It may be argued Eastern Orthodox does, but I don't believe it's correct that RC does. I'm not aware of any catechism or ordinance stipulating the primacy of scripture Over "sacred tradition" . If you can show it, I'd like to see it.
It’s in Dei Verbum, the Vatican II dogmatic constitution on Holy Scripture. Worth a read if you have never read it. Might surprise you.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,423
786
Pacific NW, USA
✟161,809.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
This flattens the understanding of the sacraments...as they are not simply ritual observances but a means of participation in the mystery. They aren't simply externalities, or symbolic actions, but an invitation to participate in the Divine life. Part of the problem is that much of this is flattened by philosophies that do not have the capacity to represent the fullness of traditional sacramental theology and instead must see them as external/symbolic realities when they are crucial to the life of Christ. For example, when Romans says we are baptized into His death it is not being metaphorical or symbolic but speaking of what it is that baptism effects in our lives.
Yes, I know many here see it that way, as the modern world escaping the wonderful Christian traditions of the past, as represented by liturgies and repetitious exercises, and perhaps some abdications of freedoms that people normally enjoy. But I don't, with all due respect.

I see these things not as necessarily carrying the essence themselves, nor even being required observances. More, they were given to us as "gifts," which a local church would want to secure their doctrine and which a State would want to provide moral order in the society.

I think people flock to Jesus at certain times of revival, while Christian states over time grow old and lose their faith, ie apostacize. Religion isn't restored by restoring liturgies and sermons rife with psychology such as self-denial and affirming self-esteem. The former would be more conservative, and the latter liberal.

Rather, the Christian spirit can only be restored by reemphasizing Jesus himself as the source of energy in a dead, secular world. Then, rather than marking Christian rituals as "required," they would naturally be *wanted.*
 
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,423
786
Pacific NW, USA
✟161,809.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The thing with Hillsong and earlier versions such as Maranatha, is the resemblance to the Psalms. With many songs containing what's written in the Psalms.
Any modern revivalistic movement is going to expose their weaknesses and sins. It is not less with the older churches, which may be less visible only because the standards seem to be lower and thus appear less "hypocritical." I love the Hillsong music while at the same time hating the moral failures. I wouldn't do a thing to slow them down in the things they were called to do and have done admirably. They at least are reaching our culture and our young in a way that gets both their interest and their commitment.

I've had issues with Chuck Smith's eschatology, and yet I wouldn't in the least try to stop his daily broadcasts from S. CA when I listened to them in the 70s. I've had issues with the theology of certain radio personalities, and yet while they were doing their ministries they were reaching a lot of people with truth that can help them in our fallen culture. If they are not against us, we should be for them.
 
Upvote 0

ozso

Site Supporter
Oct 2, 2020
27,251
14,894
PNW
✟952,998.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Any modern revivalistic movement is going to expose their weaknesses and sins. It is not less with the older churches, which may be less visible only because the standards seem to be lower and thus appear less "hypocritical." I love the Hillsong music while at the same time hating the moral failures. I wouldn't do a thing to slow them down in the things they were called to do and have done admirably. They at least are reaching our culture and our young in a way that gets both their interest and their commitment.

I've had issues with Chuck Smith's eschatology, and yet I wouldn't in the least try to stop his daily broadcasts from S. CA when I listened to them in the 70s. I've had issues with the theology of certain radio personalities, and yet while they were doing their ministries they were reaching a lot of people with truth that can help them in our fallen culture. If they are not against us, we should be for them.
I don't understand what that has to do with contemporary worship music.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,836
3,950
✟382,963.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
By the way would you happen to know how the Oil of the Sick is consecrated in the Roman Rite? i’d be very interested in seeing that liturgy, to see if it resembles the liturgies used in the Oriental Orthodox churches, for they tend to consecrate the oil once a year and then reserve it, whereas the Eastern Orthodox consecrate it before each use even if only one person is sick, and also preface it with the singing of a lovely hymn of the canon variety (which consists of eight odes based on Scriptural canticles).
It's blessed or consecrated at the Chrism Mass, once a year by the bishop at the cathedral along with the oil of catechumens and the holy chrism. They are generally reserved in a repository to the side of the sanctuary.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2021
3,423
786
Pacific NW, USA
✟161,809.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I don't understand what that has to do with contemporary worship music.
I've sung in our church a lot of Hillsong songs, and I've benefited from a lot of the music 1st launched by Calvary Chapel of Costa Mesa. That includes a lot of contemporary worship music. The fact they have problems is not surprising and doesn't always reach the level where we should depreciate their contributions.

You likened some of this to the Psalms, and I thought that was both true and interesting. But you were responding to someone who appeared to be depreciating such revival movements, almost as if young people were trying to "escape" from it now and running to more "organized" Christian worship; services--I'm willing to be corrected if I read this wrong.

Some of the favored moves, such as Haanegraaf did, I don't particularly care for in some respects, but I wouldn't in the least depreciate what he has accomplished on his radio shows. For example, I don't like his move to Preterism and his embrace of the "Local Church" cult--things that have affected my own personal interests. But at the same time he seemed like a good and capable apologist when I listened to him back when he took over from Walter Martin in the 80s.

What ties us together is the fact our Christian worship is *spiritual* and relevant in our culture. And theology, though not always perfect, is able to keep our worship in proper order.

You said nothing wrong--I agreed with you. Worship in old and new forms can be beautiful, not because any particular form is required or essential, but because they were originated to accomplish certain things at the time. When conditions exist to enable a reintroduction of old forms, I'm perfectly happy with them.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
15,836
3,950
✟382,963.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You have created a doctrinal "potion" in a theological test tube here, like so many do leading to misinterpretations. Faith is trusting God. The "faith of Abraham", which is what James is referencing in the contested verse is what is in view here.
And, as I said, that faith is what engrafts us into the Vine, that sets us apart as "My people" so that He now puts His 'law in our minds and writes it on our hearts', Jer 31:33. He justifies us. That's not a doctrinal potion but basic Christianity.
 
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,385
28,809
Pacific Northwest
✟807,797.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Just out of curiousity, have you read his commenary on Romans? Because what I've read of it combined with what I know of the pressing issues in the Reformation it seems apparent to me that one of the principal causes was an emphasis on momentary salvation due to justification by faith and a divorce of sanctification as a component of salvation to a result of salvation.

Though of course Luther alone did not define Lutheran tradition, and a lot of my interaction with Protestant distinctives comes from individuals with a Baptist framework so perhaps there is a more robust understanding within Luther and Lutheranism than I am under the impression of.

"an emphasis on momentary salvation"

That wouldn't be accurate. Speaking only of justification for a moment, the idea that justification can be described as "momentary", that is, there is a discrete singular moment when a person becomes justified, that's more of a Reformed idea, and one that has through the Reformed tradition filtered down into much of the rest of Protestantism.

That isn't how justification "works" in the Lutheran tradition--nor in the thinking of Luther--rather justification is an ever-present reality. It isn't that I one day believed, and at the moment of my belief God justified me, and now that's all behind me. It's that God is, right now, justifying me--declaring me just--on Christ's account, it is something He is doing right now, continually. God declares us righteous, imputes Christ's righteousness to us, by His grace, through faith, continually, constantly, all the time. Through Word and Sacrament. When I go up to receive the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, that is real grace, because that's really Jesus that I'm eating and drinking in, with, and under the elements of the bread and wine. There is forgiveness of sins there, because here is the Christ who gave His life for me, and I am partaking of His once-and-perfect sacrifice on the cross, and here God declares me just, God proclaims that I am in Christ--for I am baptized, united to Christ in His death and resurrection, my sins washed away, and here I partake of that perfect sacrifice, I am here partaking of the same Jesus.

It isn't that one day I believed in Jesus, and that's it. It's that right now, today, God in His mercy comes to me in Word and Sacrament, and the Holy Spirit takes hold of me, that through faith I should take hold of Christ--and in Christ I am declared righteous because of Who He is and what He has done. That's right now, right here. Every day, every moment of every day. I am justified, being justified, continually being justified because God is always pouring out His grace, proclaiming His goodness to me from every direction as He shouts through Word and Sacrament, as He shouts through the power of the liturgy in the hymns we sing, the homilies preached, in the prayers we pray, in the Sacrament of Holy Absolution, as we remember our baptism, as we come to the Table of Jesus Christ to receive Himself as He gives us Himself. Through the whole of what we have been given from God, God is proclaiming, speaking, acting, doing, drawing, claiming, reclaiming--that I, wretched sinner that I am, should not be left alone in a sea of death--but brought into the Safe Harbor of Jesus Christ, where God says I am His. And Jesus declares, "That where I am you shall be also".

Faith alone is not, and never, "One day I decided to become a Christian, and now no matter what, I have my golden ticket of glory". It's always, God meets me in the living, incarnate, crucified, and risen Jesus Christ to pour Himself out and give me from the super-abundance of Himself, that I should, in spite of my inability and wretchedness, be called the child of God--not out of my ability, but out of God's loving kindness.

It's always about Jesus Christ. It's always about Grace.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

jas3

Well-Known Member
Jan 21, 2023
1,258
900
The South
✟86,870.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I was using "Fathers" colloquially and being jocular.. I probably should be more careful with my language.
Yes, and you probably should delete the parts of your posts that have now been pointed out to you as slanderous.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
39,385
28,809
Pacific Northwest
✟807,797.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure a single quote is sufficient to establish such a thing, especially when that quote comes from Origen who's ideas are questionable on several fronts.

If it were only Origen, then sure. It's true that Origen had some (in his speculatory work) peculiar ideas that he brought forward that we should take with a grain of salt, or outright disregard. Perhaps choosing Origen was mistake on my part.

Here are some other examples of this kind of language among the fathers:

St. Clement in his Epistle writes
"And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." - Epistle of St. Clement, 32

"This is complete and perfect glorying in God, when a man is uplifted, not because of his own justice, but because he knows he is empty of true glory, and made just only through his faith in Christ. In this Paul gloried, that he thought nothing of his own justice; that he sought that justice alone which comes through Christ, which is from God, justice in faith; and that he might know Him, and the power of His resurrection, and the sharing of His sufferings, and be made like Him in His death, if by any means he might himself attain to the resurrection which is from the dead. It is here that the whole top-loftiness of arrogance falls down. Nothing is left to you to glory in, O man; whose true glorying and whose hope is in mortifying yourself in all things, and in seeking for that future life in Christ, of which we have already a foretaste when we live wholly in the love and in the grace of God." - St. Basil the Great, Homily on Humility, 3

Now, for the sake of transparent honesty, we can also see that, for example, St. Clement wrote this:

"Let us cleave, then, to those to whom grace has been given by God. Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words. For [the Scripture] says, He that speaks much, shall also hear much in answer. And does he that is ready in speech deem himself righteous? Blessed is he that is born of woman, who lives but a short time: be not given to much speaking. Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hates those that commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers. Boldness, and arrogance, and audacity belong to those that are accursed of God; but moderation, humility, and meekness to such as are blessed by Him."

Of course I'd answer, in this case, that St. Clement here speaks of the difference between merely speaking, and in the actual doing--let us be justified by actually living what we believe, and not merely having words. From the Lutheran perspective, we would understand this as part of what sanctification means. It's what St. Paul means when he says "work out your salvation through fear and trembling". It's what St. Paul means when, after speaking of how we were saved by grace, through faith, not of ourselves nor by our efforts that nevertheless we were created for good works in Christ (Ephesians 2:10).

And it's, I'd argue, what St. James is talking about when he says "faith without works is dead", not that our righteousness before God is on the basis of our own moral ability; but that merely claiming to have faith, merely having the words pertaining to matters of faith, isn't going to do us a lick of good if we aren't actually being transformed by that faith--that faith working itself out through love.

For the Lutheran of course faith works itself out through love, good works are not optional but necessary; what the Lutheran position says, however, is that it isn't the works which render us righteous before God--that is what God does, God reckons us righteous before Himself, through Christ, by His grace, which He works and accomplishes and gives through faith (faith itself being a gift and work of God); the righteousness which we are now called to have, and indeed, do is not to persuade the Holy God of the Law to let us in; but rather to be out in the midst of the world doing the good things which God has called us to do, by the power of His grace, by the power of the Spirit, by the transformation of a life that is in Christ--so that now we set foot upon the stage of the world, before the great audience of our fellow humanity, so that even as we inhabit Christ through faith; we now inhabit our neighbor through love. And this comes straight from Fr. Martin's own pen, that the Christian is defined in two ways: faith in Christ, and love of neighbor.

The two are inseparable. The one who has faith in Christ loves their neighbor, there can be no other way, no exception, no alternative. Without love of neighbor one is not a Christian, even if they claim to profess Christ all day long. For at the Day of Judgment Christ will set those on His right and those on His left, and to them both He will say that He was hungry and thirsty, that He was naked and an immigrant, that He was sick and in prison, and whatever we did (or failed to do) for the least of these we did it, or didn't do it, to Him--and to those on His right He shall welcome them in; and to those on His left He shall say to depart to where there is fire, gnashing of teeth, to that place which was prepared for the devil and all his dark minions.

Those on the right say, "When did we see You hungry and feed You?" For these are the righteous, not on account of their works but on account of their faith who then do the works; in stark contrast to those whom Christ speaks about in Matthew 7 who go on saying "Lord Lord" pointing to their supposed good works, "Look at what we did! It was for You!" and who just the same as those on His left in Matthew 25, He will say, "depart from Me". For faith does not look to ourselves, but to Christ; and faith compels us to look at our neighbor with different eyes, and to walk with new feet, and to act with new hands.

It is not in glorying in what we have done, but glorying in what God has done for us; and as the Spirit changes us, transforms us, makes us new a new way of being human, one that looks like Jesus, is happening. On the Day of Judgment none of us will be able to petition the Almighty Judge that we were guiltless and righteous by our works; and yet on the Day of Judgment our works will speak loud, either for or against us. But it is not our works that get us past that finish line, but faith-it is by the mercy of God alone that He welcomes us in, for none of us will stand, on the basis of our works, guiltless on that Last Day--but the one who has faith will say, "I am unworthy and full of many sins" and the Judge will say, "Well done good and faithful servant"; the faithless and the wicked shall say, "See, I have done many good works and am therefore worthy" and the Judge will say, "Guilty, away from Me". The Grace of God does not find the worthy, but finds the unworthy; and because it is Grace, reckons the unworthy as worthy because of the One who is Gracious.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,413
8,120
50
The Wild West
✟750,625.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The thing with Hillsong and earlier versions such as Maranatha, is the resemblance to the Psalms. With many songs containing what's written in the Psalms.

Hymns have been composed using the Psalms as a starting point since antiquity. Excerpts from Psalms such as the Prokeimena (Byzantine Rife), the Gradual (Roman Rite) and so forth are de rigeur. The chief problem with Hillsong and related CCM groups is the departure from the norms of Christian hymnody in all denominations prior to “praise and worship music” being visited upon us.

Many, myself included, were alienated from the churches of our birth by it, for we cannot pray with such sounds blaring.
 
Upvote 0