No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

d taylor · 2025-07-14T10:32:19-0500

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In The Bible where does it say a person who is not a believer dies spiritually twice. Because the only mention of spiritual death is at the great white throne where the unbeliever experiences the second death. Which is spiritual death, because the first death is physical death.

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
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Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

zoidar · 2025-07-14T10:36:34-0500

ThatDumbChicken said:
Before believing = DEAD
Hearing, believing = ALIVE

You are twisting the scripture to fit your narrative.

Brightfame52 said:
Man by nature cant by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasnt dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-14T11:30:06-0500

Brightfame52 said:
He is speaking of His Sheep, that's who He is lifted up for. Isn't He the Good Shepherd still from Jn 10 ? And He draws all them to Himself

You didn't address anything I said in my post. You clearly are not willing to look at ALL of scripture, but are intent on just cherry picking the scriptures that you think support your doctrine.

Scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God wants and commands all people everywhere to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11, Matthew 22:1-14). Do you believe that or not?

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-14T11:44:35-0500

Brightfame52 said:
Man by nature cant by his own freewill ability come to Christ because all men by nature are spiritually dead in [in the sphere of] trespasses and sins. Speaking of Gods elect Paul writes of them by nature Eph 2:1-3

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

The word dead here nekros means:

adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.

The lifeless here by nature is lifeless spiritually. Spiritually to God and things of God man naturally is liken to a dead lifeless corpse.

Jesus used this same word here Matt 8:22

But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Now the dead was to bury the dead. The Spiritually dead person was to bury the physically dead person. Yet the Spiritually dead person wasnt dead physically was he ? Did you know that one can be dead, lifeless and yet be physically live and active ?

Now in order for a man to come to Christ he must first have life, no not physical life but spiritual life which not even the elect have by nature.

You just don't get it. Being dead in sins does not mean someone is incapable of repenting of their sins after being made aware of their sinful, lost state by hearing the word of God.

You think that being dead in sins equates to being incapable of recognizing and confessing that you're a lost sinner and need God's mercy and forgiveness, but scripture never teaches that. Being dead in sins equates to being lost spiritually and being separated from God, but it does not equate to being totally depraved and totally incapable of repenting and believing.

According to scripture, those who are dead in sins are expected, instead of giving themselves over to their sins, to instead glorify God as God and be thankful to Him (Romans 1:18-21) and they have no excuse for not doing so (Romans 1:18-21). How can people have no excuse for not glorifying God as God and being thankful to Him, but at the same time have no ability to decide to repent of their sins and put their faith in Christ unless God gives them repentance and faith? That makes no sense. Will a person genuinely glorify God as God and be thankful to Him without also repenting of their sins? No. I've never once seen any Calvinist give a convincing explanation for this.

Jesus taught that sinners are spiritually sick and in need of a physician and He calls sinners to repentance (Mark 2:16-17). Calvinists completely ignore this or try to explain it away while they focus on them being dead in sins (while misinterpreting what that means) instead. Since all people are sinners (Romans 3:23), then Jesus calls all people to repentance. And since sinners are spiritually sick, they are fully capable of recognizing and confessing that they are sick and cannot heal themselves (cannot atone for their own sins) and need Jesus to save them and provide for the atonement of their sins so that they are no longer dead in their sins (separated from God).

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T13:13:25-0500

zoidar said:

The drawing begins at quickening, in other words the ones being drawn are now made alive. He is not drawing the dead in sin.

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T13:16:24-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
You didn't address anything I said in my post. You clearly are not willing to look at ALL of scripture, but are intent on just cherry picking the scriptures that you think support your doctrine.

Scripture teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1 John 2:1-2). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God wants and commands all people everywhere to repent (Ezekiel 18:23, 2 Peter 3:9, Acts 17:30-31). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6). Do you believe that or not?

Scripture teaches that God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11, Matthew 22:1-14). Do you believe that or not?

Im not going to work on all them verses for you. However the ones Jesus was lifted up for in Jn 12:32 is non other than all the Sheep He specifically said He will die for in Jn 10 as their Shepherd. He was still speaking as the Shepherd of the Sheep in Jn 12

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T13:19:40-0500

@Spiritual Jew

You just don't get it. Being dead in sins does not mean someone is incapable of repenting of their sins after being made aware of their sinful, lost state by hearing the word of God.

Yes it does, for those are Spiritual actions. Being made aware of sinnership b4 God is a product of New Birth, New Spiritual life.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-14T13:32:42-0500

Brightfame52 said:
Im not going to work on all them verses for you.

LOL. Were my questions too hard for you?

Brightfame52 said:
However the ones Jesus was lifted up for in Jn 12:32 is non other than all the Sheep He specifically said He will die for in Jn 10 as their Shepherd. He was still speaking as the Shepherd of the Sheep in Jn 12

So, in your world, "all people" means "the sheep". Do you know that He died even for the false teachers and false prophets that Peter referenced here...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus died for all people in the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), but some deny Him, so they are not saved and their sins are not forgiven. Only His sheep who believe in Him are saved and have their sins forgiven. But, that does not mean He did not die for all people in order to give all people the opportunity to be among His sheep.

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T13:44:27-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
LOL. Were my questions too hard for you?

So, in your world, "all people" means "the sheep". Do you know that He died even for the false teaches and false prophets that Peter referenced here...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus died for all people in the whole world (1 John 2:1-2), but some deny Him, so they are not saved and their sins are not forgiven. Only His sheep who believe in Him are saved and have their sins forgiven. But, that does not mean He did not die for all people in order to give all people the opportunity to be among His sheep.

The ones Jesus was lifted up for Jn 12:32 were His Sheep of Jn 10 and they all shall believe.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-14T14:45:49-0500

Brightfame52 said:
The ones Jesus was lifted up for Jn 12:32 were His Sheep of Jn 10 and they all shall believe.

Once again you didn't address my points. You have no interest in looking at all of scripture to find the truth. He died even for the false teachers and prophets that Peter mentioned here, but they denied Him.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-14T14:48:31-0500

Brightfame52 said:
@Spiritual Jew

Yes it does, for those are Spiritual actions. Being made aware of sinnership b4 God is a product of New Birth, New Spiritual life.

No, it's a product of hearing the word of God and believing it. Some who hear it reject it and some accept it. Everyone has the free will to choose whether to accept or reject it.

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Mark Quayle · 2025-07-14T15:53:40-0500

Mark Quayle said:
WHAT in the world does demons believing or not believing in Jesus have to do with the argument? I didn't bring that up --you did. I brought up the difference between mere intellectual assent and salvific faith, and you want to make it sound like I'm talking about Demons. Wow.

d taylor said:
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What Type of Salvation Is James Talking About? – Grace Evangelical Society

What is sad is that you believe James is telling people what to do to be saved. If i am telling people how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, i would never use James. I would never use James is a discussion about Eternal Life salvation.

So with you bringing James into the discussion to begin with, says a lot about your view on Eternal Life salvation.

Mark Quayle said:
Wrong again. I do NOT believe James is telling people what to do to be saved.

Curious, though. If James is truth, why not use it to tell the truth? Because you don't know how to do so without getting off topic? The Gospel is not just the basic black, red, white, gold pages. The more I learn about God the better I see the Gospel. When I talk to people about God, I use everything I can, and everything adds to the understanding. None of God's word will return to him void.

d taylor said:
Oh no you do not believe James addresses eternal life, but you sure drag it into a discussion about receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life by belief in Jesus.

Looks like you are still looking for the answer. I hope you find it, I suggest you read The Gospel of John until you understand its message.

And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

Wrong again. 3rd time in quick succession you misrepresent what I said / believe. This may be why you get the Gospel wrong. You apparently can't help but interpret what you read according to your biases and to fit your narrative.

I made no mention of James addressing eternal life, I didn't say one way or the other about that, though rather obviously I do believe he addresses eternal life. Your sarcastic remark is addressed to a strawman.

First you argue against a supposed claim by me concerning demons getting saved or something—I don't remember—when all I spoke of concerning demons was that they also believe, but tremble, their belief being only intellectual consent, and not submission.

Then you it is sad that I "believe James is telling people what to do to be saved", (Hah! —as though James has no business in a discussion about the Gospel!). I do not believe James is telling people what to do to be saved.

Then you translate my denial that I said that to me that I claimed not to believe James addresses eternal life. No, that isn't what I said either. I have done no fancy pitching, but you've struck out.

What makes you think I am "still looking for the answer."? —The answer to what? Your condescension is uncalled for. and a lousy debate tactic.

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T16:02:51-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
Once again you didn't address my points. You have no interest in looking at all of scripture to find the truth. He died even for the false teachers and prophets that Peter mentioned here, but they denied Him.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

No Im not addressing 2 Pet 2:1 Im fine with you believing a lie that Christs redeeming death can be so in effective. My point is no person can believe in or come to Christ by their own freewill.

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T16:07:09-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
No, it's a product of hearing the word of God and believing it. Some who hear it reject it and some accept it. Everyone has the free will to choose whether to accept or reject it.

Romans 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Hearing the word spiritually is the product of the New Birth,like Jesus says Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Hearing spiritual things requires spiritual life. Just like hearing natural things requires natural life.

FutureAndAHope · 2025-07-14T17:29:38-0500

Brightfame52 said:
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

The fact is God does not draw everyone to Himself in a saving sense. But He does give everyone the chance to be saved.

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is a process to "believing", it is not an action assigned by God to man. God, as shown above, gives His goodwill to all men, but some choose to suppress that knowledge. God certainly knows "from the beginning who they were that believed not". But it does not mean God assigned them that belief. He is actually wrathful only because people suppress the truth.

How does God's manifestation occur in John 14? When a person is responsive to God's word, receives it, then, and only then, the Father's love is poured out.

This was also believed by the Earliest Church Fathers:

4. ... but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. (Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202], Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 39 -End)

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-14T17:46:57-0500

@FutureAndAHope

The fact is God does not draw everyone to Himself in a saving sense. But He does give everyone the chance to be saved.

Absolutely false

David Lamb · 2025-07-15T02:35:59-0500

FutureAndAHope said:
The fact is God does not draw everyone to Himself in a saving sense. But He does give everyone the chance to be saved.

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools.

Yet Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

So how can God give everybody the chance to be saved if, as you agree, He does not draw everyone in a saving sense?

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-15T06:36:23-0500

The man or women who comes to Christ, doesn't come by their own freewill ability, because naturally man is spiritually dead and without any spiritual life and ability. However when the Father draws one to Christ, He begins by giving them life, spiritual life. The drawing indicates life has been given.

See coming denotes motion and motion denotes living'

The word draw denotes to impel to impart motion to, which motion is life, spiritual life 2

Brightfame52 · 2025-07-15T06:44:07-0500

David Lamb said:
Yet Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

So how can God give everybody the chance to be saved if, as you agree, He does not draw everyone in a saving sense?

Amen Jesus is simply saying, the coming to Him and believe is by means of the Fathers Drawing power. Again He states it with a littelt slight difference in words, but means the same Jn 6:65

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Obviously Jesus is referring back to what He said in Vs 44. Believing in Christ has to be given/caused, its outside of mans natural ability.

ThatDumbChicken · 2025-07-15T07:09:01-0500

David Lamb said:
Yet Jesus said:

““No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (Joh 6:44 NKJV)

So how can God give everybody the chance to be saved if, as you agree, He does not draw everyone in a saving sense?

You seem to believe that "draw" means to force someone. The Greek word used is helkysē. Interestingly, it is also used in John 21:6 where they intended to "helkysai" the net but it would not move. Drawing is pulling, coaxing, attracting--not forcing.

Not all who are drawn are saved:

John 12:32 says that when Jesus is lifted up He will draw all people to Himself. Clearly, not everyone is actually attracted to Jesus and so many have resisted the drawing of Jesus.
Acts 7:51 describes the frustration of Stephen when he states that the Jews were always resisting the Holy Spirit.
1 Thess 5:19 says not to quench (ie, resist) the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:30 says not to grieve (ie, resist) the Holy Spirit
1 Tim 6:10 describes some who allow the lure of money to be greater than the drawing of Jesus and His faith.
2 Peter 2:21 also describes some who once knew the way of righteousness but have abandoned the faith and thus resist the drawing of Jesus via His Spirit.

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

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