Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

BNR32FAN · Friday at 7:20 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
As scripture has stated that those who do not follow Jesus in this mortal body, will go to the LOF , which is a refining fire of Gods love, which will strip away all that is not of God, after that is complete that is when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. I do not see in scripture that that takes place at the white throne judgement. They are judged as to did you follow Jesus or not at that judgement, that is the judgement, then they go into the LOF, after that is when every knee will bow and every tongue will confess. and in Phil 2:10-11 the word used for confess is exomologeo which means to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations. Its not a boot on the throat false or forced confession.

Romans 14:10-12 tells us that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord when we stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

“But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you think people are actually going to literally stand before The Almighty God on Judgement Day in contempt still being rebellious? They’re going to be trembling in fear. When do you think Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31-46 will take place? In both of these examples the people who were condemned acknowledged Christ as Lord and were very humble towards Him. It didn’t do them any good. Everyone will repent immediately as soon as they’re standing before God. They’re not going to continue in their rebellion when they’re standing face to face with the Almighty God. I would imagine that this is going to be an extremely miraculous event and there’s not going to be any question as to what is going on or who they’re standing before.

BNR32FAN · Friday at 7:30 PM

Jeff Saunders said:
As scripture has stated that those who do not follow Jesus in this mortal body, will go to the LOF , which is a refining fire of Gods love, which will strip away all that is not of God

Really the LOF is a refining fire of God’s love? Where did you get that from? God’s love is the second death where satan, death, and Hades are abolished? And the names of the people who are thrown into the LOF who experience the second death which is the death of their soul are not written in the book of life. And before you mention their “eternal spirit” I will point out that their spirit is dead. Those who are spiritually alive don’t go to the LOF and anyone who is not in Christ is spiritually dead.

Let me guess the refining fire idea is coming from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 right? Where Paul was describing the metaphorical fire that tests the quality of each believer’s work? And yes that passage is exclusive to believers because it is exclusive to those who are building on the foundation of Christ. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.

fhansen · Friday at 7:32 PM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
BelieveItOarKnot said:

Do you think anyone makes themselves sinless enough to be saved?

Well, if you want to take a trip into heresy land, so be it

Ok, so Rom 8:12-14 must be meaningless to you...??

No one can make themselves sinless enough to be saved except...with and by the grace of God, by virtue of union with Him, with the branch now grafted into the Vine. Then they can begin to do so. That union is the primary difference between the old and new covenants. That's what happens as we come to know God, and so come to believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, to love Him. That's basic Christianity- and that means for us to begin to become the beings we were created to be-and God created no one to be a sinner. Here's a teaching on it, which is accompanied by an ancient understanding following:

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 [Augustine]

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 8:52 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Yeah sure I’ll explain them.

Paul just told Timothy to beware of false prophets who preach false doctrines.

“But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude; for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭1‬-‭5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

In verse 10 Paul is emphasizing that our hope of salvation is in our faith in Christ who is the Savior of all men as opposed to our hope of salvation being in obedience to the law or observing other erroneous rituals created by false prophets. Jesus is the Savior of all men and the world because He is the ONLY SOURCE OF SALVATION. If there is only one gas station in the entire world then it is the gas station that supplies gas to all men, it is the gas station that supplies gas to the world because there is no other gas station.

And verse 16 makes a very interesting point.

“Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭4‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also told Timothy that persevering in his teaching will ensure his salvation and those who hear his teachings. According to verse 16 Timothy’s salvation IS NOT ENSURED UNLESS he perseveres in his teachings.

Jesus is the restoration of all things. That is a very ambitious statement. Is Jesus going to restore evil? Is Jesus going to restore rape and murder? Is Jesus going to restore disco? Is Jesus going to restore 69 Cameros? Restoration of all things can mean almost anything. It could very well refer to restoring the earth back to its original state before the fall like what is prophesied in Isaiah 65. It can mean a lot of things hence it’s an ambiguous statement.

Yes His plan is to draw all men to Himself that is the whole purpose of the great commission in Matthew 28 which was the very last thing He told His apostles to do before He ascended into heaven.

“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28‬:‭19‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

He also said “for many are called but few are chosen” in Matthew 22 in the parable about the wedding feast and the man who was binded and cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth doesn’t appear to be receiving salvation, does he?

Yeah from one source, Adam, condemnation came to all men just like from one source, Jesus, salvation comes to all men. Again the point is that there is no other source of salvation.

“But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭20‬-‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice the order of resurrection to life. First Christ then ALL WHO ARE CHRIST’S THEN THE END WILL COME. Nothing about a resurrection to life here for those who are NOT Christ’s.

Notice the term “He must reign until He has put all His enemies UNDER HIS FEET” And pay attention here “the last ENEMY THAT WILL BE ABOLISHED is death”. Christ’s enemies will be put “under His feet” which means they must be ABOLISHED. Nothing about resurrecting His enemies to life, nothing about His enemies later becomes His friends. Only Christ’s and those who belong to Christ are resurrected to life, the rest are abolished. Then all of His enemies will be in subjection to Him under His feet because they have been abolished then Christ will relinquish His reign to The Father and be in subjection to The Father and God will be all in all because none of His enemies exist anymore.

Yeah Jesus came to save the world. That’s exactly what He came here for. He came here to bring us the gospel and to die on the cross to pay for our sins and not just our’s but the sins of the whole world. Yeah He paid for the sins of the whole world but nowhere in the scriptures does it say that the whole world will be saved. Just because Jesus paid the price doesn’t mean that He is obligated to allow everyone to enter.

I read these scriptures as they have been taught from the early church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and others, they were Greek speakers of that time and the way you are reading them is not what they taught. Western Christianity fooled Augustins teaching and that is what you are believing, as for me I will follow those who interpret scripture through the lense of Gods telos, at the end God will be all in all, not all in a few. My view of God is different than yours and our view of God and his nature and character, will determine how we read and understand scripture.
I know most of the answers that the west gives, I grew up in it and taught it myself for many years, if you are comfortable with a God that creates people who he knows he will have to torture for all eternity, then that's fine, as for me I can never go back to that way of thinking.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 9:03 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Romans 14:10-12 tells us that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord when we stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

“But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14‬:‭10‬-‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Do you think people are actually going to literally stand before The Almighty God on Judgement Day in contempt still being rebellious? They’re going to be trembling in fear. When do you think Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25:31-46 will take place? In both of these examples the people who were condemned acknowledged Christ as Lord and were very humble towards Him. It didn’t do them any good. Everyone will repent immediately as soon as they’re standing before God. They’re not going to continue in their rebellion when they’re standing face to face with the Almighty God. I would imagine that this is going to be an extremely miraculous event and there’s not going to be any question as to what is going on or who they’re standing before.

Yes I agree that all will be humble before God and not all are going to be part of the kingdom but will be subjects of that kingdom.
No one is burned forever, but the refining that will take place is going to be painful but its purpose if for refinement not punitive.
The big difference between UR understanding is that we know that God pursues all his humanity and that the death of the body is not the end, Jesus seeks the lost until they are found. We believe that God doesn't stop loving his creation just because they didn't get it while in a fallen temporary body that is blinded by sin, he keeps loving until all see him for who he truly is, when that happens no human can outlast God, they will all bow as everyone will and see who they really are, a child of God, who died so that we could be with him forever.

Jeff Saunders · Friday at 9:23 PM

BNR32FAN said:
Really the LOF is a refining fire of God’s love? Where did you get that from? God’s love is the second death where satan, death, and Hades are abolished? And the names of the people who are thrown into the LOF who experience the second death which is the death of their soul are not written in the book of life. And before you mention their “eternal spirit” I will point out that their spirit is dead. Those who are spiritually alive don’t go to the LOF and anyone who is not in Christ is spiritually dead.

Let me guess the refining fire idea is coming from 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 right? Where Paul was describing the metaphorical fire that tests the quality of each believer’s work? And yes that passage is exclusive to believers because it is exclusive to those who are building on the foundation of Christ. It has nothing to do with unbelievers.

Like i said before we read scripture with a different lense.
1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay another foundation besides the one laid down, which is Jesus the Anointed. Jesus is the savior of the world, that's a declaration not a possibility, the believer builds with gold, silver, precious stones, their work survives, those who are blind to the truth that Jesus bought them build their lives not on that foundation but with wood, hay, or straw, their works will be burned, yet he shall be saved, though as by fire.
That is how I read it, Jesus paid the price for all and all are his, but most are blind to that truth, but in time they also will see Jesus and then they will bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.

BNR32FAN · Saturday at 12:01 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
I read these scriptures as they have been taught from the early church fathers like Gregory of Nyssa and others, they were Greek speakers of that time and the way you are reading them is not what they taught. Western Christianity fooled Augustins teaching and that is what you are believing, as for me I will follow those who interpret scripture through the lense of Gods telos, at the end God will be all in all, not all in a few. My view of God is different than yours and our view of God and his nature and character, will determine how we read and understand scripture.
I know most of the answers that the west gives, I grew up in it and taught it myself for many years, if you are comfortable with a God that creates people who he knows he will have to torture for all eternity, then that's fine, as for me I can never go back to that way of thinking.

So you have nothing to say about Timothy needing to persevere in his teaching to ensure his salvation?

BNR32FAN · Saturday at 12:03 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes I agree that all will be humble before God and not all are going to be part of the kingdom but will be subjects of that kingdom.
No one is burned forever, but the refining that will take place is going to be painful but its purpose if for refinement not punitive.
The big difference between UR understanding is that we know that God pursues all his humanity and that the death of the body is not the end, Jesus seeks the lost until they are found. We believe that God doesn't stop loving his creation just because they didn't get it while in a fallen temporary body that is blinded by sin, he keeps loving until all see him for who he truly is, when that happens no human can outlast God, they will all bow as everyone will and see who they really are, a child of God, who died so that we could be with him forever.

I don’t see how they’re supposed to repent when they’re physically dead, their soul is dead, and their spirit is dead.

BNR32FAN · Saturday at 12:05 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Like i said before we read scripture with a different lense.
1 Cor 3:11 For no one can lay another foundation besides the one laid down, which is Jesus the Anointed. Jesus is the savior of the world, that's a declaration not a possibility, the believer builds with gold, silver, precious stones, their work survives, those who are blind to the truth that Jesus bought them build their lives not on that foundation but with wood, hay, or straw, their works will be burned, yet he shall be saved, though as by fire.
That is how I read it, Jesus paid the price for all and all are his, but most are blind to that truth, but in time they also will see Jesus and then they will bend the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Unbelievers aren’t building on the foundation of Christ.

BNR32FAN · Saturday at 12:19 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
Yes I agree that all will be humble before God and not all are going to be part of the kingdom but will be subjects of that kingdom.
No one is burned forever, but the refining that will take place is going to be painful but its purpose if for refinement not punitive.
The big difference between UR understanding is that we know that God pursues all his humanity and that the death of the body is not the end, Jesus seeks the lost until they are found. We believe that God doesn't stop loving his creation just because they didn't get it while in a fallen temporary body that is blinded by sin, he keeps loving until all see him for who he truly is, when that happens no human can outlast God, they will all bow as everyone will and see who they really are, a child of God, who died so that we could be with him forever.

It’s called eternal PUNISHMENT for a reason.

“This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the PENALTY (diké) of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Diké means penalty

“These will go away into eternal punishment, (kolasis) but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Kolasis means punishment

You can claim that God’s punishment isn’t punitive but the scriptures say the exact opposite.

BelieveItOarKnot · Saturday at 6:37 AM

fhansen said:
Ok, so Rom 8:12-14 must be meaningless to you...??

Can we at least presume God has a sound mind? So when you quote "all things are possible with God" does that then mean God can be a 3 foot tall green Martian?

God didn't make anyone but Himself sinless

The position of all mankind is a position of being sinners -> because God Himself bound us ALL to our enemy in the flesh, the spirit of disobedience, the tempter. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, Romans 3:9 etc

fhansen · Saturday at 7:28 AM

BelieveItOarKnot said:
Can we at least presume God has a sound mind? So when you quote "all things are possible with God" does that then mean God can be a 3 foot tall green Martian?

God didn't make anyone but Himself sinless

The position of all mankind is a position of being sinners -> because God Himself bound us ALL to our enemy in the flesh, the spirit of disobedience, the tempter. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32, Eph. 2:2, Romans 3:9 etc

I’ll quote you, asking the same question: Can we at least presume God has a sound mind? God is goodness itself and everything He creates is good as per Genesis 1. If God created man to sin then God would be the worst of sinners Himself, at least more blameworthy than any of His creation. Sin is possible only due to the abuse of another good, that of free will, given to certain rational created beings. God allows that evil as He allows that freedom, for a time, for His purposes, ultimately to bring about an even greater good in the end. If God cannot create a being who is free from moral evil then He’s a limited God, indeed, and the act of creating beings with free will would be evil itself.

United with God now, the source of all goodness, yes, all things are possible, including living as a child of His, made in His image and likeness, should live.

BelieveItOarKnot · Saturday at 8:22 AM

fhansen said:
God allows that evil

God created all things including all powers inclusive of the power of evil.

Any other claims that anything created itself is polytheism

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 8:36 AM

BNR32FAN said:
So you have nothing to say about Timothy needing to persevere in his teaching to ensure his salvation?

If you are talking about 1 Tim 4:16 - save yourself and your hearers.- the Greek word used as saved is sozo, the same word used when the disciples were in the boat about to sink, and the disciples said save us Lord, that was sozo. it means to make well, heal, or restore to health, to save from physical death. Western tradition has taken this word to mean , if you say the magic prayer now you are going to heaven not hell, that's a modern concept. If it was as you propose why would the disciples ask Jesus to sozo them from the storm, or the people Jesus healed he sozo them, heaven or hell was not even in their thinking.

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 8:59 AM

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see how they’re supposed to repent when they’re physically dead, their soul is dead, and their spirit is dead.

Show me the scripture that says their spirit is dead, because that is different than saying they are spiritually dead, meaning they are still blind to Gods truth. 1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life,because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.
This is talking about those who are spiritually dead but yet their body was still alive, James 2:26 the body without the spirit is dead.
If as you are proposing that spiritual death is the same as the death of the spirit, then how does that square up with someone who is still in the mortal body that's alive, if the spirit is dead or gone their body would die.
Again, you are not your body, you do not need a physical body to repent, or praise, do you really think that those who have died before in the faith are not in spirit praising God, while waiting for their forever physical body?

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 9:04 AM

BNR32FAN said:
Unbelievers aren’t building on the foundation of Christ.

Jesus is the foundation of all things, UR Christology is just higher than Western Traditions view of Jesus, we believe that Jesus did not fail in his mission to be the savior of the world, Jesus will get 100% of what he paid for, unless your Jesus is not strong enough, or mans will is greater than his and he just can't get it done.

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 9:10 AM

BNR32FAN said:
It’s called eternal PUNISHMENT for a reason.

“This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the PENALTY (diké) of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1‬:‭5‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Diké means penalty

“These will go away into eternal punishment, (kolasis) but the righteous into eternal life.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭46‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Kolasis means punishment

You can claim that God’s punishment isn’t punitive but the scriptures say the exact opposite.

Look up the definition of the word kolasi as used in the time of Jesus, it was a arborist term for pruning or loping off the things that were keeping a plant from producing fruit, like i have said before the English sometimes does not get it correct, that is why we look at the Greek and try to understand how the original audience would of understand it. Again aionion does not mean eternal its only a modifier to what is the subject.

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 9:25 AM

fhansen said:
I’ll quote you, asking the same question: Can we at least presume God has a sound mind? God is goodness itself and everything He creates is good as per Genesis 1. If God created man to sin then God would be the worst of sinners Himself, at least more blameworthy than any of His creation. Sin is possible only due to the abuse of another good, that of free will, given to certain rational created beings. God allows that evil as He allows that freedom, for a time, for His purposes, ultimately to bring about an even greater good in the end. If God cannot create a being who is free from moral evil then He’s a limited God, indeed, and the act of creating beings with free will would be evil itself.

United with God now, the source of all goodness, yes, all things are possible, including living as a child of His, made in His image and likeness, should live.

You are hitting on a very important truth.
God knew that if he allowed us free will we must have a choice to make, and if he allowed evil it would create much pain heartache and a lot of bad stuff, but he valued our free will love that's what he wants. If he allowed evil then being love itself, he must pay the price for our free will. That is why scripture tells us Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth, before God created any of this cosmos, he knew he was the one to pay the cost of evil and he did. 2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
God had a plan to have a creation that would come into the love relationship that the Father/Jesus/Spirit had had from all eternity, and this plan is still not done yet but God is the master planner and as we know from 1 Cor 15:28 in the end God will be all in all, death will be abolished forever, not stuck in the corner and death and sin go on for all eternity.

fhansen · Saturday at 10:26 AM

Jeff Saunders said:
You are hitting on a very important truth.
God knew that if he allowed us free will we must have a choice to make, and if he allowed evil it would create much pain heartache and a lot of bad stuff, but he valued our free will love that's what he wants. If he allowed evil then being love itself, he must pay the price for our free will. That is why scripture tells us Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth, before God created any of this cosmos, he knew he was the one to pay the cost of evil and he did. 2 Cor 5:19 in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
God had a plan to have a creation that would come into the love relationship that the Father/Jesus/Spirit had had from all eternity, and this plan is still not done yet but God is the master planner and as we know from 1 Cor 15:28 in the end God will be all in all, death will be abolished forever, not stuck in the corner and death and sin go on for all eternity.

It's an interesting thought, that God took on the blame because of His own responsibilty in having created beings who do evil. And yet there's more to it than that, because we still play a part. God only gave man a good gift: the freedom which allows for but does not will that evil, or make evil unavoidable. The abuse of that freedom is still man's fault to the largest degree. And if God's whole purpose is to ultimately steer man into identifying and desiring only the good, into loving as He does to put it best, then isn't there still the option of our failing to do so, and of being rightly acountable for that?

Jeff Saunders · Saturday at 10:38 AM

fhansen said:
It's an interesting thought, that God took on the blame because of His own responsibilty in having created beings who do evil. And yet there's more to it than that, because we still play a part. God only gave man a good gift: the freedom which allows for but does not will that evil, or make evil unavoidable. The abuse of that freedom is still man's fault to the largest degree. And if God's whole purpose is to ultimately steer man into identifying and desiring only the good, into loving as He does to put it best, then isn't there still the option of our failing to do so, and of being rightly acountable for that?

Yes we are accountable for our actions, I believe that the those who have not put their trust in Jesus will give an account and the refinery that they go through will not be fun, but very painful. God has not told us how he is going to do things, but I like this idea, each person must live through all the pain and agony that they caused other people, they will experience what they have done to others, after that time they will be humbled and come to Jesus as they see what they have done. Some one like Hitler who killed many and ruined many lives will be in that for a long time, but others who have lived a " good peaceful " life might not have a lot to repent of. Only those who have dies to self and lived for Jesus get to skip that part.

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