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Anyone have good arguments against Calvinism.

Hazelelponi

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For me, the challenge was the opposite. If it were purely God's choice, how could I ever be sure He had actually chosen me?

You have surety because God's promises are true.

It's just that. Are God's promises true? Yes...

If a person is drawn and believes then they're also chosen and since the choosing belongs to God you don't have the question why me and not the person to my right or left, you just are grateful you were chosen in unmerited Grace.

It's about having full faith and trust in God and not in yourself, in the surety of His promises and the faithfulness of His Word.

Did He not bring us out of the land of Egypt and deliver us from bondage?

His promises are true.
 
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Fervent

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You have surety because God's promises are true.

It's just that. Are God's promises true? Yes...

If a person is drawn and believes then they're also chosen and since the choosing belongs to God you don't have the question why me and not the person to my right or left, you just are grateful you were chosen in unmerited Grace.

It's about having full faith and trust in God and not in yourself.
That only works in a general sense, but doesn't live up to scrutiny. Perseverance of the saints doesn't hold if you don't know whether you were one of the elect until after all is said and done. So the only way to have assurance is to not question your own election, and by that I don't mean "why me?" But "Am I?" As there is nothing that separates the elect from the non-elect except God's "inscrutable" will there is no way that one can know they truly are part of the elect, or if tomorrow they're going to wake up and find that God was only allowing them to fool themselves.

That is not even to begin talking about the issue of God becoming the author of sin under Calvinism and what that says about the trustworthiness of God's promises to begin with.
 
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Hazelelponi

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inscrutable" will there is no way that one can know they truly are part of the elect, or if tomorrow they're going to wake up and find that God was only allowing them to fool themselves.


Fervent, I hear your concern, and it’s one that many wrestle with—especially if they’ve been taught that assurance rests in themselves.

But the Reformed faith doesn’t teach that assurance comes from trying to peer into the hidden will of God. It comes from trusting in and believing what He has revealed. And what has He revealed? That Christ came to save sinners. That whoever believes in Him will not perish. That the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Rom. 8:16). That those whom He foreknew, He predestined, called, justified—and will glorify (Rom. 8:29–30). There's no break in that golden chain. No one gets halfway in and then gets discarded.

You said, “there is nothing that separates the elect from the non-elect except God's ‘inscrutable’ will.” But that’s not quite right. What separates the elect from the non-elect is not just the decree of God, but the work of Christ applied by the Spirit through faith. The elect believe. The elect are sealed. The elect persevere—not because they’re stronger, but because God is faithful.

Our assurance doesn’t rest in ourselves, but in the person and finished work of Jesus. We are saved and persevere because Jesus told us this truth and we believe in and trust in Him - not ourselves because the saving is His work and it's finished in His victory.

Just as the Israelites in Egypt weren’t saved because of the strength of their faith, but because they trusted God's word about the blood of the lamb and obeyed—so we too rest in the blood of Christ, our Passover Lamb. They put the blood over their lintels and waited, trusting that God would pass over them. They weren’t examining themselves all night saying, “Did I believe hard enough?” They trusted the word of God. And God delivered.

In the same way, we are not called to gaze inward endlessly for some hidden evidence that we are elect. We are called to look to Christ—crucified, risen, and interceding for His people. Our hope is not in how well we can believe, but in whom we believe. Christ is not only the Author of our faith—He is its Finisher (Heb. 12:2).

So no, I don’t think the solution is to step back from God’s sovereignty because it feels “inscrutable.” That would only lead us back to relying on ourselves. The gospel doesn’t call us to trust in our own hold on Christ, but to trust in His hold on us.

“Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.” (Heb. 10:23)

Even our faith is a gift—so that all the glory belongs to Him.

If the Bible says you're elect why don't you believe?
 
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Clare73

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If one chooses something, it was not forced onto them.

That is an incomplete sentence.
"When one willingly chooses what he prefers, he is no sense of the word ("choose") being forced."

Subject, predicate. . .what more is needed to qualify?
 
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Hazelelponi

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It's funny how different people respond to different emphases, as the primary emphasis I took away from hearing Calvinist messaging growing up was how totally worthless I was with its severe focus on human sinfulness. And the rational/logical structuring made it difficult to see my way out of the trap. All I was left with was the question of if I were as bad as they said I was, how could God ever love me?


That's the miracle. Because we are as bad as all that and He chose us in Him anyway. All creation is created for His Glory and He has declared choosing the weakest and most frail to magnify His love all the more.

Someone said something about Calvinists which led me to write this the other day on a different forum which I will share with you Quoting:

Nothing like reducing Calvinism to a caricature.

Why does God need to have nothing to do with our salvation in order for the relationship to be considered genuine? That mindset makes no sense.

My relationship with my earthly father wasn’t any less real or loving because I didn’t choose it. I didn’t agree to it, didn’t sign up for it—I was born into it because he desired a child. I grew up under his authority, followed rules I didn’t always understand (“Because I said so,” remember that?), and yet I adored him. I was his little girl.

Was that not a real, genuine, deeply loving relationship?

God says, “I will be a Father to you” and “I will take you as My bride.” These are relationships God Himself initiates—not ones that depend on us giving prior consent. Whether in Scripture or in history, fathers and bridegrooms have not typically waited for a child or a bride to negotiate terms before acting in love. These relationships are not based on mutual autonomy, but on covenantal roles.

In both roles—child and bride—we are chosen, loved, and called into something bigger than ourselves. And our response is to learn how to walk faithfully in the role He’s given: a daughter who honors her Father, and a bride who delights in pleasing her Bridegroom.

We don’t call these earthly roles invalid just because we didn’t initiate them. In fact, they are often the deepest bonds of love precisely because they were chosen for us by someone who loved us first.

So how is it that these real-life examples—being born to a father, being chosen as a bride—are dismissed when it comes to our relationship with God?

What makes a relationship genuine? Love, commitment, sacrifice—and yes, even authority rightly expressed. The God who chooses us, who adopts us, who redeems us through no merit of our own, is not violating our personhood—He is loving us more deeply than we could ever deserve.

Thought it might help you to read those words. It's adoption, we come as needy as a street urchin to a wealthy home, and we are adopted in love, drawn by a Father who loves us, as undeserving as we are. We owe everything for what He has given.

 
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Fervent

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That's the miracle. Because we are as bad as all that and He chose us in Him anyway. All creation is created for His Glory and He has declared choosing the weakest and most frail to magnify His love all the more.
Calvinists have strange ideas about what glorifies God...especially as they seem to believe He has arsonist pathology.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Calvinists have strange ideas about what glorifies God...especially as they seem to believe He has arsonist pathology.

Im sorry but perhaps we should employ just the tiniest bit more reverence for God instead of mocking Him.

What exactly do you mean "arsonist pathology?"
 
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Fervent

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Im sorry but perhaps we should attempt just the tiniest bit more reverence for God instead of mocking God.
I'm not mocking God, I'm mocking Calvinist presentations of God that dishonor God.
What exactly do you mean arsonist pathology?
There is a certain subset of arsonists who after setting the fire, rush in to save the people to get the "glory" of saving folks from the danger they put them in. According to Calvinism, that's hos God behaves. He sets the fire of sin and damnation, and then arbitrarily saves some from the danger He put them in.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I'm not mocking God, I'm mocking Calvinist presentations of God that dishonor God.

There is a certain subset of arsonists who after setting the fire, rush in to save the people to get the "glory" of saving folks from the danger they put them in. According to Calvinism, that's hos God behaves. He sets the fire of sin and damnation, and then arbitrarily saves some from the danger He put them in.

Fervent,

I understand your analogy is meant to expose what you see as a flaw in Calvinism, but what it actually does is flatten and misrepresent both God’s holiness and His grace. And in doing so, it trades the beauty of the gospel for something unrecognizably distorted.

The analogy of an arsonist setting a fire just to rescue people for personal glory is deeply flawed—because it assumes that mankind was neutral, innocent, or undeserving of judgment in the first place. That is not the biblical story.

“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)
“There is none righteous, no, not one… there is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10, 18)

The fall of Adam was not a neutral event—it was the willful rebellion of man against a holy God. And every one of us, by nature, has followed in that rebellion. The house was already in flames. The arsonist wasn’t God. The match was in our hands.

So what does God do? He sends Christ into the fire—not to gloat in rescue, but to be consumed in our place. The cross is not the act of a manipulative deity—it is the self-giving love of a holy and merciful God, saving people who deserve nothing but wrath, by taking that wrath upon Himself.

You said this view of God dishonors Him. But if God were not sovereign over sin—even its allowance—then evil would exist outside His control. And a God who isn’t sovereign isn’t trustworthy. The very promise that God can work all things for good (Rom. 8:28) requires that He governs all things—even the darkest ones.

“You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” (Genesis 50:20)

God didn't create sin—but He did ordain a world in which sin would be defeated by the greater display of grace and glory in Christ. That doesn’t make Him guilty. It makes Him God.

“He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills... But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” (Romans 9:18–20)

You may feel this doctrine of sovereign election is uncomfortable—but that discomfort doesn’t disprove it. Many found Jesus’ teaching hard. They walked away when He said, “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65–66)

But I would rather embrace a hard truth that humbles me than a soft lie that elevates man and limits God.

In the end, Calvinism doesn’t make God an “arsonist.” It proclaims Him as the Holy One who entered the fire Himself to redeem a people for His name.

“For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:29)

And if He has set His love on anyone, it is not because they deserved it—but because He is love.
 
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Fervent

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Fervent,

I understand your analogy is meant to expose what you see as a flaw in Calvinism, but what it actually does is flatten and misrepresent both God’s holiness and His grace. And in doing so, it trades the beauty of the gospel for something unrecognizably distorted.

The analogy of an arsonist setting a fire just to rescue people for personal glory is deeply flawed—because it assumes that mankind was neutral, innocent, or undeserving of judgment in the first place. That is not the biblical story.

“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)
“There is none righteous, no, not one… there is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10, 18)

The fall of Adam was not a neutral event—it was the willful rebellion of man against a holy God. And every one of us, by nature, has followed in that rebellion. The house was already in flames. The arsonist wasn’t God. The match was in our hands.

So what does God do? He sends Christ into the fire—not to gloat in rescue, but to be consumed in our place. The cross is not the act of a manipulative deity—it is the self-giving love of a holy and merciful God, saving people who deserve nothing but wrath, by taking that wrath upon Himself.

You said this view of God dishonors Him. But if God were not sovereign over sin—even its allowance—then evil would exist outside His control. And a God who isn’t sovereign isn’t trustworthy. The very promise that God can work all things for good (Rom. 8:28) requires that He governs all things—even the darkest ones.

“You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.” (Genesis 50:20)

God didn't create sin—but He did ordain a world in which sin would be defeated by the greater display of grace and glory in Christ. That doesn’t make Him guilty. It makes Him God.

“He has mercy on whom He wills, and He hardens whom He wills... But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” (Romans 9:18–20)

You may feel this doctrine of sovereign election is uncomfortable—but that discomfort doesn’t disprove it. Many found Jesus’ teaching hard. They walked away when He said, “No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (John 6:65–66)

But I would rather embrace a hard truth that humbles me than a soft lie that elevates man and limits God.

In the end, Calvinism doesn’t make God an “arsonist.” It proclaims Him as the Holy One who entered the fire Himself to redeem a people for His name.

“For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:29)

And if He has set His love on anyone, it is not because they deserved it—but because He is love.
The problem is, Calvinists blame human beings for things that God (supposedly) caused them to do. If Calvinism is true, there is only one sinner; God. Because there is only one will, God's. Your rationalization of the arsonist analogy doesn't actually address the central point, which is the distorted idea about what brings God glory present within Calvinism. The notion that human beings are cupable for sin that God brought about through them, while denying that God who is the sole cause of that sin coming about bears any responsibility is an affront to the God of the Bible since it turns the gospel into a mockery.
 
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Hoping2

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BobRyan

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Not at all arbitrary.
God said what man must do for eternal life.
Not many will submit to those commands.

All it takes is a genuine belief in God, who will take care of the heavy lifting if we submit to His authority.
ok but you are not posting the Calvinist POV apparently
 
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BobRyan

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"When one willingly chooses what he prefers, he is no sense of the word ("choose") being forced."

Subject, predicate. . .what more is needed to qualify?
Rom 7 shows a born-again Christian willing/choosing to do right but then doing wrong because of the sinful nature.

Rom 8 shows how such a person can be enabled by the Holy Spirit -- to do right.
 
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