No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Mark Quayle · Jul 9, 2025

d taylor said:
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Since a demon is not a human, there is no reason to bring them into a discussion about people receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life only by belief in Jesus. Unless you believe Jesus also died for demons and if that is the case. You are too far out there in your beliefs for me to discuss that.

How do you get this so wrong??? What I was saying is that your example of believing someone has brown hair has NOTHING to do with salvific faith. It is ludicrous! God is not like us, and faith in him has nothing to do with becoming convinced, or learning what we can trust him to do, or about anything else, but becoming transformed from death to life. The faith is not generated by us, but by HIM. It is a gift of God, not of man, done inside the regenerated by God himself --the Spirit of God-- when he takes up permanent residence inside those to whom God has chosen to show mercy.

d taylor said:
Belief in Jesus is exactly what it says, belief is belief. Do you really have to be told what belief (in something) means.

So belief in Jesus is just like any other belief? REALLY??? Just for starters, does the fact that your chair will hold your weight and the floor below it too, demand your obedience and submission?

d taylor said:
But in case you do, belief is being convinced or convicted something is true. Since we are discussing receiving Eternal Life, belief in Jesus means a person believes God's promise that all who believe in Jesus receive at the very moment of belief in Jesus God's free gift of Eternal Life.

We trust God for things He has not explicitly promised.
We believe God for things He has promised.

Not to accept your notion of the belief and trust being like the other, but: How does one do that, when, corrupt to the core, he is at enmity with God, cannot submit to God's law, will not submit to God, and cannot do anything that pleases God? (Romans 8 again, btw)

d taylor · Jul 10, 2025

Mark Quayle said:
How do you get this so wrong??? What I was saying is that your example of believing someone has brown hair has NOTHING to do with salvific faith. It is ludicrous! God is not like us, and faith in him has nothing to do with becoming convinced, or learning what we can trust him to do, or about anything else, but becoming transformed from death to life. The faith is not generated by us, but by HIM. It is a gift of God, not of man, done inside the regenerated by God himself --the Spirit of God-- when he takes up permanent residence inside those to whom God has chosen to show mercy.

So belief in Jesus is just like any other belief? REALLY??? Just for starters, does the fact that your chair will hold your weight and the floor below it too, demand your obedience and submission?

Not to accept your notion of the belief and trust being like the other, but: How does one do that, when, corrupt to the core, he is at enmity with God, cannot submit to God's law, will not submit to God, and cannot do anything that pleases God? (Romans 8 again, btw)

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Look fellow you can believe what you want, but i am not going to do a back and forth on this. I have had this discussion too many times on this site, so feel free to believe what you want.

Fervent · Jul 10, 2025

zoidar said:
Hi friend,

It's clear God drew me. I think most Christians agree God takes the initiative. There is a lot more to the story, but it's too long to share here. I believe God worked in me for years until I finally surrendered. Could I kept resisting the call, I believe so. But as the story goes eventually I got convicted and responded positively. I normally say conviction comes first, then repentance, and lastly regeneration/the new birth. So we got a little different view how it all works. To me conviction is not the same as regeneration. Regeneration follows repentance.

Christ love!

Most is an understatement, since it is literally heresy to deny that God takes the initiative. Such a denial is Pelagianism, and has been recognized as heresy since the 5th century. The dispute is over whether or not our choices play any role in the matter, or if God is just arbitrarily choosing people to "save"(or perhaps more appropriately, to not torture for ever for things that only He was in control of). And I do notice that your description isn't a matter of God doing the work, but you surrendering. Which is, in my opinion, the orthodox view on what it is that human beings do when we respond appropriately to the gospel. God must draw those who are to be saved, but that doesn't mean we are just puppets dancing to the whims of a capricious sovereign who has meticulously ordered things to such a degree that there is no human freedom whatsoever.

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

bling said:
The famine did not cause the son to repent. The fact that the young son was starving to death in a pigsty, did bring the son to his senses, but that did not make the choice for the son. If the son had been macho, he would have accepted the death sentence in the pigsty, he fully deserved and not bothered his father further with some undeserved request.
When the son came to his sense he wimped out and gave up, willing to accept pure undeserved charity from his father. That was not the coin's or the lamb's problem.

These are things you are not able to comprehend

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Yes, but that doesn’t mean we bear Adam’s sin. Because Adam sinned, we sin. Because Adam sinned, we die. Because Adam sinned, creation fell. The fall changed everything. It is why we are in rebellion to God.

All men sinned in Adam Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

A New Dawn · Jul 10, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
All men sinned in Adam Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

You repeatedly posting that scripture doesn’t make it say what you want it to say.

Maybe offer up what you mean when you say “all men sinned in Adam.” IF you mean that Adam was responsible for the fall causing all men to sin, I agree with that, but by not saying that I get the feeling that that is not what you mean.

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
You repeatedly posting that scripture doesn’t make it say what you want it to say.

Maybe offer up what you mean when you say “all men sinned in Adam.” IF you mean that Adam was responsible for the fall causing all men to sin, I agree with that, but by not saying that I get the feeling that that is not what you mean.

It says it, very clearly, you dont believe it. All men sinned when Adam sinned, he was their Head/ Representative , thats how God sees it, designed it.

A New Dawn · Jul 10, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
It says it, very clearly, you dont believe it. All men sinned when Adam sinned, he was their Head/ Representative , thats how God sees it, designed it.

So yes, he is our representative …… why? Because when he sinned, sin entered the world and death by sin, causing all men to sin, putting all men in rebellion to God.

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
So yes, he is our representative …… why? Because when he sinned, sin entered the world and death by sin, causing all men to sin, putting all men in rebellion to God.

When He sinned, all in him sinned. He didnt act as a private person

bling · Jul 10, 2025

d taylor said:
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Death comes to all people because all are sinners through the line of Adam the one man. Sin is not just floating around in the air and we catch it like a cold, it exist in our very being our sin nature. The same as we are born with blood running through our veins we are born with a sin nature in our being.

Specifically, it says, “Because all sinned” and not “all were made sinners”. The word “all” does not have to include every conceived two cells to death, and can be just referring to mature adults, the people Paul is addressing in Rome.

So, you believe unborn babies are sinners?

Why was Adam and Eve not born/created with this same “sin nature”, since they sinned?

Are you conveniently blaming Adam and Eve for your sinning?

If Adam and Eve sinned with only one way to sin, why would our “nature” have to change for us to sin with a ton of ways to sin?

Is it not good for some people to fulfill their earthly objective, that we have death and/or Christ coming back with judgement for all?

d taylor said:
Paul uses many as a reference to all for people, but then it comes to Christ the many represents the people who will believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

What Romans 5 is not saying is that all mankind sinned in Adam as its seminal head.

Does Romans 5:12-21 Teach Original Sin? – Grace Evangelical Society

Bob Wilkin said: “It did so by Adam passing on a sin nature to his offspring. All children of Adam with an earthly father have a sin nature”.

The Bible does not say: “We received a sin nature from Adam after he sinned”, so what does this mean and where did that idea come from? Why wouldn’t having the knowledge of Good and Evil, be enough for all mature adults to sin, since Adam and Eve with their nature did not keep from sinning with only one way to sin?

bling · Jul 10, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
These are things you are not able to comprehend

That is a frequently used copout statement.
The Holy Spirit living in me knows and if I truly need to know for some good reason, He will help me to know.
I do not have any problem with Christ's parables; they were made to be understood by Christians after Pentecost.

A New Dawn · Jul 10, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
When He sinned, all in him sinned. He didnt act as a private person

You still haven’t cleared up what you mean by “all in him sinned”. That doesn’t mean anything to me unless you tell me what you mean when you say it. Now if you said ‘all in Adam died’, that is understandable since death entered the world by his sin.

He was God’s representative of man because he was the first one. We are all still responsible for our own sin.

d taylor · Jul 10, 2025

bling said:
Specifically, it says, “Because all sinned” and not “all were made sinners”. The word “all” does not have to include every conceived two cells to death, and can be just referring to mature adults, the people Paul is addressing in Rome.

So, you believe unborn babies are sinners?

Why was Adam and Eve not born/created with this same “sin nature”, since they sinned?

Are you conveniently blaming Adam and Eve for your sinning?

If Adam and Eve sinned with only one way to sin, why would our “nature” have to change for us to sin with a ton of ways to sin?

Is it not good for some people to fulfill their earthly objective, that we have death and/or Christ coming back with judgement for all?

Bob Wilkin said: “It did so by Adam passing on a sin nature to his offspring. All children of Adam with an earthly father have a sin nature”.

The Bible does not say: “We received a sin nature from Adam after he sinned”, so what does this mean and where did that idea come from? Why wouldn’t having the knowledge of Good and Evil, be enough for all mature adults to sin, since Adam and Eve with their nature did not keep from sinning with only one way to sin?

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Adam passed down to all humans the knowledge of good and evil (The sin nature). Adam (and Eve) were not created and made with that knowledge, it came to them after they ate of the fruit.

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

bling said:
That is a frequently used copout statement.
The Holy Spirit living in me knows and if I truly need to know for some good reason, He will help me to know.
I do not have any problem with Christ's parables; they were made to be understood by Christians after Pentecost.

I explained, you cant comprehend

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
You still haven’t cleared up what you mean by “all in him sinned”. That doesn’t mean anything to me unless you tell me what you mean when you say it. Now if you said ‘all in Adam died’, that is understandable since death entered the world by his sin.

He was God’s representative of man because he was the first one. We are all still responsible for our own sin.

Its cleared up to me:

It says it, very clearly, you dont believe it. All men sinned when Adam sinned, he was their Head/ Representative , that's how God sees it, designed it.

ThatDumbChicken · Jul 10, 2025

Sure does take a lot of asterisks to believe in Calvinism.

whosoever*

*not really whosoever, just somesover

d taylor · Jul 10, 2025

bling said:
Specifically, it says, “Because all sinned” and not “all were made sinners”. The word “all” does not have to include every conceived two cells to death, and can be just referring to mature adults, the people Paul is addressing in Rome.

So, you believe unborn babies are sinners?

Why was Adam and Eve not born/created with this same “sin nature”, since they sinned?

Are you conveniently blaming Adam and Eve for your sinning?

If Adam and Eve sinned with only one way to sin, why would our “nature” have to change for us to sin with a ton of ways to sin?

Is it not good for some people to fulfill their earthly objective, that we have death and/or Christ coming back with judgement for all?

Bob Wilkin said: “It did so by Adam passing on a sin nature to his offspring. All children of Adam with an earthly father have a sin nature”.

The Bible does not say: “We received a sin nature from Adam after he sinned”, so what does this mean and where did that idea come from? Why wouldn’t having the knowledge of Good and Evil, be enough for all mature adults to sin, since Adam and Eve with their nature did not keep from sinning with only one way to sin?

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Because Adam passed down to all humans the knowledge of good and evil

I will also add that is why Calvinism is based off of a false idea, because we are born with the knowledge of good and evil. Man/women has the ability to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life.

A New Dawn · Jul 10, 2025

Brightfame52 said:
Its cleared up to me:

It says it, very clearly, you dont believe it. All men sinned when Adam sinned, he was their Head/ Representative , that's how God sees it, designed it.

What part of THOSE WORDS ARE NOT IN THAT SCRIPTURE is unclear to you?

Show me those words.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Maybe that is what you get out of it, but it is not what it says.

Brightfame52 · Jul 10, 2025

A New Dawn said:
What part of THOSE WORDS ARE NOT IN THAT SCRIPTURE is unclear to you?

Show me those words.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

Maybe that is what you get out of it, but it is not what it says.

Its cleared up to me:

It says it, very clearly, you dont believe it. All men sinned when Adam sinned, he was their Head/ Representative , that's how God sees it, designed it. Rom 5:12

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Mark Quayle · Jul 10, 2025

Mark Quayle said:
And this is all that Salvific Faith is? Simple belief? Have you not been quoted before, that the demons also believe?

You will likely retort, as have all those before you, that it is also submission and trust, not just acknowledgement, and that is true, but still lacking what Scripture describes. One fellow told me it is like his trust in his wife, that she has convinced him that she is trustworthy. If that is all this is, I am wondering just who you think God is, and of what little import sin and the fallen nature is.

God is not like us.

d taylor said:
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Since a demon is not a human, there is no reason to bring them into a discussion about people receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life only by belief in Jesus. Unless you believe Jesus also died for demons and if that is the case. You are too far out there in your beliefs for me to discuss that.

Mark Quayle said:
How do you get this so wrong??? What I was saying is that your example of believing someone has brown hair has NOTHING to do with salvific faith. It is ludicrous! God is not like us, and faith in him has nothing to do with becoming convinced, or learning what we can trust him to do, or about anything else, but becoming transformed from death to life. The faith is not generated by us, but by HIM. It is a gift of God, not of man, done inside the regenerated by God himself --the Spirit of God-- when he takes up permanent residence inside those to whom God has chosen to show mercy.

So belief in Jesus is just like any other belief? REALLY??? Just for starters, does the fact that your chair will hold your weight and the floor below it too, demand your obedience and submission?

Not to accept your notion of the belief and trust being like the other, but: How does one do that, when, corrupt to the core, he is at enmity with God, cannot submit to God's law, will not submit to God, and cannot do anything that pleases God? (Romans 8 again, btw)

d taylor said:
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Look fellow you can believe what you want, but i am not going to do a back and forth on this. I have had this discussion too many times on this site, so feel free to believe what you want.

Do you back out when you made a mistake? It would at least be more congenial if you would admit to the strawman by which you attacked me, concerning my mention of demons, when my only reference to demons was demonstrative of intellectual assent vs. salvific faith. It was not about demons. Give me that much, at least, instead of dismissal.

We have, indeed, had this discussion many times in the past, and, like you, I have grown tired of answering your objections and claims. But when faced with a miscommunication on my part, I have, at least, tried to amend my statements before leaving the conversation.

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