Is God a do as I say not as I do God?

Jeff Saunders said:

Yes you are correct it has been the minority view, but it is in good company , how many Jews in Jesus day believed he was the messiah? very few , the majority was correct even though they knew scripture better than most do today, but they still got it wrong. I believe we have a good example that just because the majority believe something that does not make it so.

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And yet Christians believed Jesus was Messiah from the beginning.

Jeff Saunders said:

You ask if I believe in eternal destruction

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I did not ask you that. No.
Quote me, and you will not see that question.

Jeff Saunders said:

your assuming that the judgement is condemnation but that is not in there.

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If condemnation isn’t there then why are we having a discussion about annihilation and eternal punishment? And I’m not assuming anything, I literally posted a link from a credible lexicon explaining what the Greek word actually means. Revelation 20 discusses that very same judgement and the consequences for those who’s deeds were evil and do not believe just like John 3.

“And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If an unbeliever is judged for his unbelief already he is condemned already. It’s referring to a present state, not the end result because every believer was once an unbeliever and at that time was under condemnation because they were not justified with God thru Christ. Only after we come to Christ are we justified with God, we are not justified regardless of whether we come to Christ or not.

Jeff Saunders said:

Yes you are correct it has been the minority view, but it is in good company , how many Jews in Jesus day believed he was the messiah? very few , the majority was correct even though they knew scripture better than most do today, but they still got it wrong. I believe we have a good example that just because the majority believe something that does not make it so.

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Very few? The Bible records several occasions where Jesus preached to several thousands who believed. And the unbelieving Jews were not permitted to believe in Christ because they didn’t believe the writings of Moses. God temporarily blinded them and closed their ears so that they wouldn’t believe in order to bring about Christ’s crucifixion.

Jeff Saunders said:

I guess it all depends on what Greek scholars you want to point to, you can find " scholars" that teach in both sides of this issue. I follow those who believe aionios is a modifier and the only time it can mean eternal is when what is modified is eternal, God, we know is eternal that is why as christians we get eternal life, because that life is in Jesus and Jesus is eternal, Punishment is not eternal its corrective and therefore has a beginning and and end.
David Bentley Hart is one such scholar that I follow, he is considered in some circles to be one of the best New Testament Greek scholars, and so that's the scholars that I follow.

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Then explain Matthew 10:28 please.

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“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How is this temporary?

Jeff Saunders said:

I guess it all depends on what Greek scholars you want to point to, you can find " scholars" that teach in both sides of this issue. I follow those who believe aionios is a modifier and the only time it can mean eternal is when what is modified is eternal, God, we know is eternal that is why as christians we get eternal life, because that life is in Jesus and Jesus is eternal, Punishment is not eternal its corrective and therefore has a beginning and and end.
David Bentley Hart is one such scholar that I follow, he is considered in some circles to be one of the best New Testament Greek scholars, and so that's the scholars that I follow.

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Are there any other examples in scripture that use the adjective aionios that don’t refer to something eternal? I just don’t see how the word age can be used as an adjective.

2PhiloVoid said:

In the meantime, I'm going to affirm Hitler stake in Hell. And I'm pretty sure that there, he'll stay.

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Amen, it is so.
THe odd thing here and worldwide is that one of the best or the most evidence proving beyond doubt that ur is utterly and completely false and condemns many to a resurrection of destruction is from all those who hold to, carry, and spread the lie.

2PhiloVoid said:

Ghost Rider as a mere metaphor.

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For someone who's been around you seem blissfully unaware of both the reality of Mark 4:15 personally and the heresy that surrounds denial of that unseen evil actor

Anyone who has been blindsided knows it well enough to not make pooh pooh out of it. There are disobedient spirits that are not the people they inhabit. Eph. 2:2

It also allows me to look to that "other than" the people for adverse judgment.

But that thing would never have it that direction now would it?

fhansen said:

Funny how you were able to read my mind and root out my true intentions. Awesome, man, thou art holy, indeed. Yes, we have a register-a copy of the Book of Life, actually- of all those who’re saved so we don’t even bother forgiving anyone else. Good call! Bravo! Well done. etc.

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Yes, I've heard enough of the "not me, but God" refrains over the years.

Unfortunately for such positions there is not a single named person in the entirety of the Bible said to have such a fate nor is there a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

So the not me but God refrain is just another vile imagination, not of God.

We all have an adversary. That adversary is reflected in the holders in many ways. Not loving ALL our neighbors is where the rubber meets the road. Romans 13:8-10

And I will readily concede the evil I have within me can not and will never conform to Christ's command regarding that matter or any other.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

For someone who's been around you seem blissfully unaware of both the reality of Mark 4:15 personally and the heresy that surrounds denial of that unseen evil actor

Anyone who has been blindsided knows it well enough to not make pooh pooh out of it. There are disobedient spirits that are not the people they inhabit. Eph. 2:2

It also allows me to look to that "other than" the people for adverse judgment.

But that thing would never have it that direction now would it?

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ok.

Jeff Saunders said:

I like to see it like this- in the video games my kids play, the characters die and lose all the treasure they found is lost and they start again with nothing, but those who did the level correctly continue on to the next level with all the treasure they had accumulated.

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Not much different than the common works versions

Jeff Saunders said:

Faith without works is dead, Jesus told us to store up our treasures in heaven not on earth, Paul said we can't even imagine what God has instore for those who believe. Not a works based version, just a word picture.

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I agree with this, anyway. And it's not insigificant, IMO, that Paul actually said that we can't even imagine what God has in store for those who love Him. Because that's His real ultimate purpose in all this: love of Him, first of all, and then our neighbor as well. And the evidence of that love will always be good fruit.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Yes, I've heard enough of the "not me, but God" refrains over the years.

Unfortunately for such positions there is not a single named person in the entirety of the Bible said to have such a fate nor is there a single named person even threatened with such a fate.

So the not me but God refrain is just another vile imagination, not of God.

We all have an adversary. That adversary is reflected in the holders in many ways. Not loving ALL our neighbors is where the rubber meets the road. Romans 13:8-10

And I will readily concede the evil I have within me can not and will never conform to Christ's command regarding that matter or any other.

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We can love all our neighbors, as God does. But our neighbor isn't forced to love either you or God. He may choose the opposite, in fact. in which case he's already experiencing hell to one degree or another, in this life. In that case it wouldn't me or God, but such a person: "not God, but them".

Jeff Saunders said:

Faith without works is dead, Jesus told us to store up our treasures in heaven not on earth, Paul said we can't even imagine what God has instore for those who believe. Not a works based version, just a word picture.

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I like to surprise universalists with little bits of joy, because, you see, every man will get a REWARD!

Not just those who have their particular forms of Jesus paint on their lips.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

And another big surprise here is that there are rewards on both sides of the aisle! Yes, bad deeds get a reward too. A reward of destruction. And we all have a little wood, hay and stubble in our fields, do we not/knot? And the loss we suffer will also be quite glorious, even for these in our good riddance to these unworthy pieces of refuse.

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

I spent several years as a farmer including dairy cattle. Back in the days before we polluted the planet with chemicals, we used to do what is called summer fallow to the fields. It was a portion of the summer when you'd til the soil, not plant anything, and let the weeds all pop up. And before they went to seed, you'd plow them under. Got rid of a lot of riff raff that way before Roundup and genetic modifications of seeds came along. Then we'd plant a sweet crop like red clover, and when it matured in the flower stage, before seeds came, it could be 4-6 feet high and so thick you couldn't walk through it. And then we'd plow that under for fertilizer for the next 3 years. It was quite a healthy practice, in retrospect. After I was saved, I sometimes watered my fields with tears, because it was a hard life to make a living at, and I had a big family to take care of. God saw me through it all.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

I know some like to think they're going to get this big ol mansion in heaven and run 10 cities when He returns, and all that. But I just wanted to point out that every man shall receive a reward, and that will not be to burn any of them, even temporarily. Works, yes. People, not going to happen.

The devils, the tares however, now that's a whole nother subject

Even as good as we might keep our fields, we know we are popping up out of the darkness of our own ground, when this happens:

Matthew 13:26
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

Jesus is sooo interesting. In the days before chemicals, the tares actually appeared long before the fruit of the plant. But only when we are "in fruit" do we actually see them in our own ground. No plant bears fruit when the first blades appear.

Oh, look. There grows a man! And there is also a TARE, in the same ground as that man. If you get the picture here

And some see these things as a survival of the fittest seed situation, but that's never the case with a good farmer. Everything in that field will be used, one way or another. Every last molecule has and will give their account.

Blood, sweat and tears. It's what's for dinner in the Kingdom

fhansen said:

We can love all our neighbors, as God does. But our neighbor isn't forced to love either you or God

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Look, it's a general understanding in "truthful" Christianity that all people are God's children, so there's that.

And as such every last person has love in themselves to give. Even if it's just to love their own sorry hides.

And if these things are true, I believe they are. Then they already are born of God and know God. Now, granted, you might have more understanding with Jesus, God in Christ. But that really doesn't do you much good if you're trying to burn your supposedly love neighbors alive forever now does it? Kind of ridiculous, really.

John the Apostle certainly gave us enough space to be gracious to every last person on earth who has ever lived:

1 John 4:7
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

This^^^ I believe, is TRUE.

Whenever I gather with any group, and there is prayer, like before a meal, I recite this scripture as a reminder to everyone.

It makes for a very happy meal. It really does. And you'd be soooo surprised how Jesus shows up, and how quickly. It makes everyday worth living just to participate.