No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

Spiritual Jew · Jul 7, 2025

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, Ozso

Then the very next verse:

Joh 12:33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

The context has noting to do with the universal inability of man to come to Christ.

.It has to do with the kind of death he would suffer.

Context is king.

In Him,

Bill

John 12:32 has to do with both the fact that Jesus draws all people to Himself AND the type of death He would die. It doesn't have to be one or the other. You're trying to come up with an excuse to not accept that He draws all people to Himself. He does. But, some then put their faith and trust in Him and some reject Him. He doesn't force Himself upon anyone. Everyone must choose how to respond to His drawing.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 7, 2025

BBAS 64 said:
RC narrows it down:

View attachment 367212

And Reformed theology also teaches that God hates everyone else so much that He doesn't even give them any opportunity to be saved and ensures that they spend eternity in eternal torment. That is the Reformed understand of the God who is love (1 John 4:8). Unbelievable.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 7, 2025

BBAS 64 said:
Good day,Bling

He will have mercy on who he has (choice) mercy.

He wants to have mercy on everyone (Romans 11:30-32). Why do you not look at the whole story?

pasifika · Jul 7, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
Does being a slave to righteousness mean you never sin? No. Does being a slave to sin mean you never do anything that is right? No. So, you need to think about what these things mean instead of acting as if being a slave to sin means you can't repent of your sins. It doesn't mean that any more than being a slave of righteousness means you can't sin.

the main point is, when you offered yourself to someone as an obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey. Either Sin or Righteousness. Romans 6

Being slaves to Sin means you'll never do anything right before God, as Sin is your Master. Romans 3:9-18. the end result is Death.

But being slaves of God means you're not "continues" in Sin as you used to be but you become to live "righteous" which leads to "holiness" and the end result is "Eternal life".

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

bling said:
You can have limited options and still make free will choices even if your choice is to not like any option.
First off: do you believe Adam and Eve made a free will choice to eat?
Sinners can choose to want to do different sins, all being sin. If a sinner for purely selfish reasons want to humbly accept God's pure undeserved charity, he is still sinning because he is using selfish (sinful) motivations, so why can't a sinner do that?

Yes to Adam and Eve since they were living in communion with God as it was before the fall. In fact, in history, they were the only ones who could have made a truly free-will choice.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

Fervent said:
Your response assumes much, and sows confusion rather then making things clear. Are the children of Israel not "real"? And where does it say that it's referring to the POV of the enemies? What are you basing these things on?

The only way I can think of sharing my thinking is with the lyrics of a song.

Give Thanks

Give thanks with a grateful heart
Give thanks to the Holy One
Give thanks for what the Lord has done for us

And now let the weak say I am strong
Let the poor say I am rich
For what the Lord has done for us.
——————

A lot of our viewpoints looking in on something we are not privy to can seem different from what they really are. The Children of Israel are real, but they are not righteous, except they are seen as righteous by their enemies because their enemies do not believe in God.

That probably didn’t clear things up.

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

A New Dawn said:
The only way I can think of sharing my thinking is with the lyrics of a song.

Give Thanks

Give thanks with a grateful heart
Give thanks to the Holy One
Give thanks for what the Lord has done for us

And now let the weak say I am strong
Let the poor say I am rich
For what the Lord has done for us.
——————

A lot of our viewpoints looking in on something we are not privy to can seem different from what they really are. The Children of Israel are real, but they are not righteous, except they are seen as righteous by their enemies because their enemies do not believe in God.

That probably didn’t clear things up.

Not at all, in fact it appears to depend on a bit of circular reasoning. Nothing about the verse implies that the righteous are only righteous in the eyes of the wicked/their enemies. It's only if we presume that the doctine of total depravity is true that the assertion can even begin to be sustainable, and that presumption goes against numerous statements in the Bible about righteous individuals both in the OT and the NT. In fact, the doctrine is built on an ancient mistranslation in the Vulgate and Augustine's inability to read Greek which was then doubled down on by Luther and Calvin.

So all you've provided is an assertion, which is most likely built on the very theological doctrine you are defending. So you've implicitely committed a fallacious bit of reasoning known as petitio principii, or begging the question.

Fervent · Jul 7, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
He wants to have mercy on everyone (Romans 11:30-32). Why do you not look at the whole story?

Even the verse they are abusing doesn't mean what they are implying with it....as in both places where it appears it is about showing mercy to someone that the person receiving the message doesn't want God to show mercy to. In the case of Romans, it's addressing the Jewish hostility to embracing the Gentiles since they believed that God owed them vengeance as they saw the Gentiles as their oppressors. It is not a statement of God restricting His mercy, but being more merciful than human beings would like Him to be.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

bling said:
You can have limited options and still make free will choices even if your choice is to not like any option.
First off: do you believe Adam and Eve made a free will choice to eat?
Sinners can choose to want to do different sins, all being sin. If a sinner for purely selfish reasons want to humbly accept God's pure undeserved charity, he is still sinning because he is using selfish (sinful) motivations, so why can't a sinner do that?

Free will implies that people are free to choose whatever they want (like a sinner can choose to follow God), when in reality they can only choose according to their nature. You explained that nicely, thanks.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

d taylor said:
I have never talked about following Jesus, when i am addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. As following Jesus does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life, only belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life.

Ummm …… did you rip John 6 out of your Bible? The whole chapter is about those whom God has chosen for salvation and him giving them to Jesus to be saved. That is ALL OF US!

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
This is complete nonsense. Why would He make a sacrifice that was sufficient to cover all sin and then make it so that wasn't possible because of purposely only choosing to cover the sins of some? That's contradictory. You are correct that His sacrifice was sufficient to cover all sin, so the only explanation that not all people's sins are covered is because some choose not to accept what Jesus did for them. Jesus wouldn't die for all and then purposely make it so that not all could be saved. God graciously offers salvation to all people (Titus 2:11) and it's not the disingenuous offer that Calvinists make it out to be. In Calvinism, God offers nothing in relation to salvation and it's entirely up to His choice alone as to who is saved or not.

Nonsense. Christ’s sacrifice would be sufficient for all the sins on earth no matter how many they are because that is the nature of His sacrifice. Christ’s sacrifice, though, is only for those who believe on Him, though, because that is what God decreed, no matter how much you don’t like it.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
Does being a slave to righteousness mean you never sin? No. Does being a slave to sin mean you never do anything that is right? No. So, you need to think about what these things mean instead of acting as if being a slave to sin means you can't repent of your sins. It doesn't mean that any more than being a slave of righteousness means you can't sin.

Having the gift of the Holy Spirit with you means precisely that you are NOT a slave to sin, and you can choose to repent and put that sin off. Unbelievers are slaves to sin because they don’t have the gift of the Holy Spirit with them and they are slaves to their fallen sinful nature. All their choices will proceed from that place.

d taylor · Jul 7, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Ummm …… did you rip John 6 out of your Bible? The whole chapter is about those whom God has chosen for salvation and him giving them to Jesus to be saved. That is ALL OF US!

-

Here are verse stating belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life
Your turn post all the verses stating, following Jesus gives people Eternal Life.

John 3:14,15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
----------------
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
----------------
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
----------------
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
----------------
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
----------------
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
----------------
John 6: 27,28,29 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
----------------
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.
----------------
John 11:25,26,27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
----------------
John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
And Reformed theology also teaches that God hates everyone else so much that He doesn't even give them any opportunity to be saved and ensures that they spend eternity in eternal torment. That is the Reformed understand of the God who is love (1 John 4:8). Unbelievable.

Reformed theology teaches that God created man (man and woman created He them) and said it was good. Adam and Eve walked with God in the garden, and even being in perfect communion with God, they still chose to sin, and through them sin entered the world and man became fallen. It is our own fault that we walk in rebellion to God.

It is people like you who have created a god in their own image rather than believing in the God of the Bible yet presume to think you know God yet can’t be bothered to know that God has other attributes besides love.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

d taylor said:
-

Here are verse stating belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life
Your turn post all the verses stating, following Jesus gives people Eternal Life.

John 3:14,15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
----------------
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
----------------
John 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
----------------
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is
condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only
begotten Son of God.
----------------
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
----------------
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
----------------
John 6: 27,28,29 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
----------------
John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believe in Me has everlasting life.
----------------
John 11:25,26,27
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.”
----------------
John 20:31
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

And what does all this have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that it’s a conflict of interest for Jesus method of saving us is giving us faith in himself? I mean, you are making no sense.

d taylor · Jul 7, 2025

A New Dawn said:
And what does all this have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that it’s a conflict of interest for Jesus method of saving us is giving us faith in himself? I mean, you are making no sense.

-

Well then maybe we should just end our discussion

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

d taylor said:
-

Well then maybe we should just end our discussion

Maybe you can clarify why you posted somewhat doesn’t seem to speak to the discussion.

d taylor · Jul 7, 2025

A New Dawn said:
Maybe you can clarify why you posted somewhat doesn’t seem to speak to the discussion.

-

No you go back to my post #102, that you quoted and see if you can understand our discussion.

A New Dawn · Jul 7, 2025

d taylor said:
No you go back to my post #102, that you quoted and see if you can understand our discussion.

You said, in post 132, "I have never talked about following Jesus, when i am addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. As following Jesus does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life, only belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life."

What does that even mean? How can you NOT follow Jesus when speaking about receiving God's free gift of eternal life? Jesus IS the way to eternal life. That is what following Jesus means. You are splitting hairs by separating following Jesus and believing in Jesus. They are the same thing.

But since you asked:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.”
Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He *said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [fn]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mar 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mar 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Jhn 1:43 The next day He purposed to go into Galilee, and He *found Philip. And Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me.”

d taylor · Jul 7, 2025

A New Dawn said:
You said, in post 132, "I have never talked about following Jesus, when i am addressing receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. As following Jesus does not give a person God's free gift of Eternal Life, only belief in Jesus gives a person Eternal Life."

What does that even mean? How can you NOT follow Jesus when speaking about receiving God's free gift of eternal life? Jesus IS the way to eternal life. That is what following Jesus means. You are splitting hairs by separating following Jesus and believing in Jesus. They are the same thing.

But since you asked:
Mat 8:22 But Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me, and allow the dead to bury their own dead.”
Mat 9:9 As Jesus went on from there, He saw a man called Matthew, sitting in the tax collector's booth; and He *said to him, “Follow Me!” And he got up and followed Him.
Mat 16:24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
Mat 19:21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be [fn]complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Mar 1:17 And Jesus said to them, “Follow Me, and I will make you become fishers of men.”
Mar 10:21 Looking at him, Jesus felt a love for him and said to him, “One thing you lack: go and sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Jhn 1:43 The next day He purposed to go into Galilee, and He *found Philip. And Jesus *said to him, “Follow Me.”

-

I sure am, because The Bible splits hairs when it come to what a person must do and what God requires to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. And The Bible never states to receive Eternal Life follow Jesus. The Bible always states to receive Eternal Life, believe in Jesus.

I could write another 500 words on this, but i will just post a link to an article about this and you can read it if you like.

The New Testament Understanding of Following Jesus – Grace Evangelical Society

No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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Bind my wandering heart to thee!

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