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Darwinian evolution - still a theory in crisis.

Warden_of_the_Storm

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"Saint" Augustine didn't use the King James Bible, did he?

Since he was one of the founding fathers of the Christian faith in Western Europe and was born in 354 AD and died 450 AD... OF COURSE NOT.

And his word holds a lot more weight than yours does since he actually put in the work.
 
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AV1611VET

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Oh, I am well aware you're King James' Version only, and that's just nutty.

And I love how you let your mask slip just enough to let us know what you really think, AV.

You don't have to look very far to know what I think.

I'll put it right up in the storefront window.

Others? Well ...
 
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Fervent

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They would be correct. You ARE a YEC!
There is, at least, one thing that seems to distinguish him from a true YEC. YEC at least make an attempt to align their understanding with something resembling engagement with empirical data. It's a totally backwards approach, but they don't entirely disengage in the way that his position requires.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You don't have to look very far to know what I think.

I'll put it right up in the storefront window.

Others? Well ...

Yeah, saying that scientists all work for the Devil is very clear and obvious...
 
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The Barbarian

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"Saint" Augustine didn't use the King James Bible, did he?
Neither did Maimonedes. KJV is a modern revision of scripture. Not a bad one. But it has some errors:
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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The Barbarian

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Umm.. you might need to revise that link a bit since all I'm getting the is "Bless and do not curse" censor.
Don't see why, but I did a tinyurl on it. Looks good now.
 
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BCP1928

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No, that's a bad assumption. For example, over thousand years ago, St Augustine pointed out that there was no way to interpret them as literal 24 hour days.

The great Medieval Hebrew theologian Maimonedes pointed out that Genesis was not a literal account.
Exactly. And in the view of many, the author didn't think so either. The author intentionally used a word commonly denoting a standard 24 hour day for a literary purpose, not as a literal description. If you assume that he used it with the intent of describing the actual length of time God took to create you have fallen down the literary inerrancy rabbit hole and miss the real theological importance of the story.
 
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AV1611VET

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The author intentionally used a word commonly denoting a standard 24 hour day for a literary purpose, not as a literal description.

What author?
 
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BCP1928

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I don't know why you go on about this so. All Christians believe that the Bible is inspired, but that doesn't mean we have to think Genesis ! is a literal description of creation.
 
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Fervent

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I don't know why you go on about this so. All Christians believe that the Bible is inspired, but that doesn't mean we have to think Genesis ! is a literal description of creation.
A quick perusal of the wikipedia page on independent baptists would probably answer your question, separation is a pretty big issue for them.
 
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Fervent

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Oh, I got to be honest I do not care enough to go at this with you, especially since I can tell right away we're not going to agree on anything nor is either one of us going to accept the other's view.
That's fair, though it might help if I clarify my position a bit. My approach to the Bible is to treat it first and foremost as a literary exercise. I'm not concerned with whether or not it reflects what actually took place in history, only what can be gleaned theologically through analyzing the text. So my goal is to begin with semi-objective questions about the context, grammar, and what can be gathered about initial authorial intent. Allagory certainly exists within the texts, but there are responsible and irresponsible ways of seeking allegorical senses. I'm a big believer in the historic understanding of multifaceted meanings in the text, and I'm completely comfortable with them reflecting all of the ordinary errors of any other text. As far as historical events portrayed, there is only one that I take as unassailable. And this attitude is largely because of my familiarity with the way that ancient literature functioned and ancient understandings of the fluidity of truth.
 
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I’m often accused of contrarian views that run counter to fact or science.
my detractors all seem to assume That Darwinian evolution ( which doesn’t make it as a proper theory anyway) is now established as THE process of evolution , not what it really is - an overeach of conclusions based on too limited a data set, and that functionalist adaptation cannot explain the path to the main classes of life.

My detractors contend that there is a pathway to life via abiogenesis after which Darwinian process arrived at present life by more or less known route, instead of the REALITY as I have often said, that the void between the most complex non living structures we know to the simplest cell we know which is horrendously complex, is a vast unbridgeable chasm , and that there is not even conjecture that fills the gap.

The reality is my detractors seem to get their views from mass media, and they do not study enough , or know enough to notice my views are a mainstream in the minds of many evolutinary biologists. These are not creatonists but scientists who see The same problems I do.

This is a vast subject and far from closed .
It takes an entire book just to describe the different schools of thought attempting To address the serious problems with limitations of darwinian thinking , as other than fine micro adaptation, and why for example neither autocatalytic sets nor RNA world cut it as a solution To the second problem I mention.

I urge all to read a single book.

“ Michael Denton - evolution still a theory in crisis “

The consensus of many evolutionary biologists seems to be that present theories and Darwinian assumptioms and present biological science can never explain life, that the universe must be somehow predisposed to life, because random chemical and biological process can Never account for what we see.

So my views are mainstream science born of study, and much reading unlike the illinformed atheist kneejerk faith in Darwinism , who refuse to study counter arguments. I study both sides of all arguments, but then I am a scientist.

These are not creationists speaking, but evolutionary biologists who see the same problems I do, but articulate them a great deal better. They should , it’s their specialism not mine.

You can either study it or stay illinformed .

Read that one book. Plenty of references
I can refer to other books I have but the essence is there.

My views on NDE which comments on the nature of consciousness , is also a big part of the question of life and is the hardest puzzle of life that chemistry can never solve, because it lies beyond the boundaries of chemistry, are also shaped by good mainstream science. The illinformed here seem to have no concept of how wide and deep that scientific literature is, and how many researchers and medics accept it.

we live in a fast food , quick fix, two minute video explains all world. I don’t.

That isn’t the world of science, which is seeing further by climbing a mountain of knowledge by study.
there is no 2 minute video to why Darwinism doesn’t work.

It takes a book. Read it. It’s a good review of where evolutionary science is at, and the holes it can’t fill.
A better book to read is Plato’s Revenge, the new science of the immaterial genome

It was just published in April 2025. It speaks in plain language what is going on in modern biological science and that pure materialism is inadequate to explain what we see today
It is secular and not Christian, so you will not see them proclaim Jesus is Lord, rather an honest admission that scientific materialism does not explain the existence of life and there is an intelligence beyond pure chance which can be the only conclusion.
Darwinism is so devoid of actual science that even the secular scientists are beginning to abandon it. Darwinism fails material, philosophical and theological points so often that it is a wonder it was ever believed in the first place.

To be true to philosophy, we must define terms. Science is defined by the scientific method, and as such in no way contradicts the Bible or the Genesis account of creation.

The scientific method is defined by observation then hypothesis, then active search to find data which contradicts that hypothesis.


Narrative, aka story telling, makes itself out to look scientific, but fails in a basic point. It does not look for data which contradict it, rather looks for evidence that would seem to support it, and discards all data that would seem to contradict it as statistical anomalies.

By this definition, Darwinian evolution is a narrative and not science, so much so that serious secular scientists are beginning to recognize it. The existence of life cannot be explained by purely chemical means. Inorganic matter does not beget organic life without the infusion of intelligence. Even Darwin’s theory of rearrangement of the genome becomes severely deficient the more we discover about the sophisticated nanotechnology present in even the simplest cells.
Evolution was a bill of goods sold to a society that did not wish to retain the knowledge of God.

Evolution is a narrative and not science.

Read Plato’s Revenge and let me known what you think. It’s available on Amazon
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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A huge problem with this site, or at least parts of it, is that for some reason, people are terrified of actually quoting from the text's they say people should read.
 
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Fervent

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A better book to read is Plato’s Revenge, the new science of the immaterial genome

It was just published in April 2025. It speaks in plain language what is going on in modern biological science and that pure materialism is inadequate to explain what we see today
It is secular and not Christian, so you will not see them proclaim Jesus is Lord, rather an honest admission that scientific materialism does not explain the existence of life and there is an intelligence beyond pure chance which can be the only conclusion.
Darwinism is so devoid of actual science that even the secular scientists are beginning to abandon it. Darwinism fails material, philosophical and theological points so often that it is a wonder it was ever believed in the first place.

To be true to philosophy, we must define terms. Science is defined by the scientific method, and as such in no way contradicts the Bible or the Genesis account of creation.

The scientific method is defined by observation then hypothesis, then active search to find data which contradicts that hypothesis.


Narrative, aka story telling, makes itself out to look scientific, but fails in a basic point. It does not look for data which contradict it, rather looks for evidence that would seem to support it, and discards all data that would seem to contradict it as statistical anomalies.

By this definition, Darwinian evolution is a narrative and not science, so much so that serious secular scientists are beginning to recognize it. The existence of life cannot be explained by purely chemical means. Inorganic matter does not beget organic life without the infusion of intelligence. Even Darwin’s theory of rearrangement of the genome becomes severely deficient the more we discover about the sophisticated nanotechnology present in even the simplest cells.
Evolution was a bill of goods sold to a society that did not wish to retain the knowledge of God.

Evolution is a narrative and not science.

Read Plato’s Revenge and let me known what you think. It’s available on Amazon
Before I begin, thanks for the book recommendation. It sounds like an intriguing concept. That said, it sounds like either you or that author has confused a couple of issues, namely that the theory of evolution is expressly materialistic. The ToE doesn't express any ontological commitments, it is purely an understanding of explanatory mechanism for how the diversity of life came to be. Not its origin, not its ontological status, just a mechanism that lines up with observations and predicts what to expect in future discoveries.
 
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Hans Blaster

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A better book to read is Plato’s Revenge, the new science of the immaterial genome
A book published by the Discovery Institute Press? LOL.
It was just published in April 2025. It speaks in plain language what is going on in modern biological science and that pure materialism is inadequate to explain what we see today
That has been the DI's undemonstrated claim for about 30 years.
It is secular and not Christian, so you will not see them proclaim Jesus is Lord, rather an honest admission that scientific materialism does not explain the existence of life and there is an intelligence beyond pure chance which can be the only conclusion.
Darwinism is so devoid of actual science that even the secular scientists are beginning to abandon it. Darwinism fails material, philosophical and theological points so often that it is a wonder it was ever believed in the first place.
DI is so devoid of actual science that all they can do is lie about science. It's clear that they are at it again.
To be true to philosophy, we must define terms. Science is defined by the scientific method, and as such in no way contradicts the Bible or the Genesis account of creation.

The scientific method is defined by observation then hypothesis, then active search to find data which contradicts that hypothesis.
Someday the DI will use the scientific method. (Who am I kidding, no they won't.)
Narrative, aka story telling, makes itself out to look scientific, but fails in a basic point. It does not look for data which contradict it, rather looks for evidence that would seem to support it, and discards all data that would seem to contradict it as statistical anomalies.
That's not how science functions, including biology.
By this definition, Darwinian evolution is a narrative and not science, so much so that serious secular scientists are beginning to recognize it.
It isn't and we aren't.
The existence of life cannot be explained by purely chemical means. Inorganic matter does not beget organic life without the infusion of intelligence.
Inorganic matter lacks the necessary carbon. No one is making the claim you are trying to counter.
Even Darwin’s theory of rearrangement of the genome becomes severely deficient the more we discover about the sophisticated nanotechnology present in even the simplest cells.
What? Darwin knew nothing about genomes.
Evolution was a bill of goods sold to a society that did not wish to retain the knowledge of God.
Doesn't have anything to do with your god.
Evolution is a narrative and not science.
Nope. Ya got that backward.
Read Plato’s Revenge and let me known what you think. It’s available on Amazon
pass
 
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