Salvation by grace through faith and our responsibility?

Brightfame52 · Friday at 2:59 PM

Clare73 said:
It is not covered in time until they come to saving faith in time.

Thats false and disrespectful to Christs Blood

Clare73 · Friday at 3:06 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Thats false and disrespectful to Christs Blood

Tell it to Paul who told the believing Ephesians that they had "been dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph 2:1).

Brightfame52 · Friday at 3:08 PM

Clare73 said:
Tell it to Paul who told the believing Ephesians that they had "been dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph 2:1).

Im telling it to you, Paul didnt post that mess.

GoldenKingGaze · Friday at 3:40 PM

Clare73 said:
Tell it to Paul who told the believing Ephesians that they had "been dead in trespasses and sin" (Eph 2:1).

So you present the idea that spiritual death is completely without grace in character?

Clare73 · Friday at 4:03 PM

Brightfame52 said:
Im telling it to you, Paul didnt post that mess.

I'm believing Paul wrote Eph 2:1, and I'm sticking with it.

Clare73 · Friday at 4:14 PM

GoldenKingGaze said:
So you present the idea that spiritual death is completely without grace in character?

All are born condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19)--which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:8-19) through faith.
The only saving grace related to that condemnation and spiritual death is the new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5) and faith.

Brightfame52 · Friday at 4:45 PM

Clare73 said:
I'm believing Paul wrote Eph 2:1, and I'm sticking with it.

You dont believe a word Paul wrote. You deceived.

Clare73 · Friday at 4:52 PM

Brightfame52 said:
You dont believe a word Paul wrote. You deceived.

Could you be deceived?

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 6:27 AM

Clare73 said:
All are born condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19)--which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:8-19) through faith.
The only saving grace related to that condemnation and spiritual death is the new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5) and faith.

I think that as from Romans 2:12-16 and other stories like Ruth and Naomi and Boaz, and regarding Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and the Unknown god Paul described was Jesus, that there is grace in people who were not Jewish or Christian, and surrounding us. And today persons are resuscitated and speak of seeing the light, but are self described atheists... We do have some good nature despite not being born again and enlightened by the Torah... Just not enough to make it all the way back to God on one's own. Remembering not only human nature is faulty but there is Satan opposing us. But we all have guardian angels.

And in Acts it says God places us in space and times in such a way that we may reach out for Him who is not far from any of us. Acts 17:26-29.

Some Jews and Gentiles find the books like Lamentations and the Cross in the Gospel, hard to manage or accept because of the brutality. These people are gentle and kind natured and don't oppose but are not so inspired by the holy messages. Some of them are vegetarians.

Clare73 · Saturday at 10:43 AM

GoldenKingGaze said:
I think that as from Romans 2:12-16 and other stories like Ruth and Naomi and Boaz, and regarding Socrates, Confucius, Buddha, and the Unknown god Paul described was Jesus, that there is grace in people who were not Jewish or Christian, and surrounding us.

The fact remains that all are born condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19)--which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:8-19) through faith.
The only saving grace related to that condemnation and spiritual death is the new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5) and faith.

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 11:37 AM

Clare73 said:
The fact remains that all are born condemned by the sin of Adam imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19)--which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the righteousness of Christ imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:8-19) through faith.
The only saving grace related to that condemnation and spiritual death is the new birth of the Holy Spirit into eternal life (Jn 3:3-5) and faith.

I am sure that many people who never heard of Jesus, who are spiritually dead, have the beatific vision and on dying God takes them, and belatedly they are born again.

I can't believe imputation works, infusion is the means.

God infuses us with saving justice...

Infants who die are not condemned. It takes bad decisions on growing up, and losing childhood trust... idolatry, hate, uncleanness, some of them are lost, or are found in darkness in the afterlife.

Jesus said we should trust like a child and that the Kingdom belongs to them.

Clare73 · Saturday at 12:07 PM

GoldenKingGaze said:
I am sure that many people who never heard of Jesus, who are spiritually dead, have the beatific vision and on dying God takes them, and belatedly they are born again.

I can't believe imputation works, infusion is the means.

I'm sorry you are not in agreement with
the apostolic teaching (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16).

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 2:58 PM

Clare73 said:
I'm sorry you are not in agreement with
the apostolic teaching (Ro 5:17, 18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16).

Your last quote leads to remembering Jesus saying, He who welcomes one of these little children, welcomes me, and he who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me. And, to enter the Kingdom, you should have faith, trust, as a little child. And God is the dominant power in life and death, from scripture, can you see that God will not condemn those passing away from infant mortality and abortions? 1 Timothy 4:10. God saves unbelievers.

Why would an infant harden themselves to God, His grace and mercy and love and light... They are spiritually supple in God's hands and so His angels' hands. And some adults who never heard of Jesus and various other types, are children at heart and respond to grace at least after death in angels of light's hands.

Surely Paul writing to Timothy and the Romans is the expressing of the same faith to all.

Clare73 · Saturday at 3:39 PM

GoldenKingGaze said:
Your last quote leads to remembering Jesus saying, He who welcomes one of these little children, welcomes me, and he who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.

Having identified the elect as being humble as are little children, Jesus said you will not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you change and are like little children; i.e., humble.

GoldenKingGaze said:
And, to enter the Kingdom, you should have faith, trust, as a little child. And God is the dominant power in life and death,

Indeed. . .all those of Adam are born condemned unbelievers,
as the result of Adam's sin imputed to them at birth (Ro 5:17), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14)
for Christ's righteousness imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

GoldenKingGaze said:
from scripture, can you see that God will not condemn those passing away from infant mortality and abortions? 1 Timothy 4:10. God saves unbelievers.

"God is the Savior of all men". . .who preserves and prospers them in the natural order, and has put them in a state where they can be saved, rather than a fixed state, as is Satan and the fallen angels.

GoldenKingGaze said:
Why would an infant harden themselves to God,

It's not about an infant hardening himself.
It's about Adam's sin being imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19) as the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

That imputation of Aam's sin condemns all mankind at birth, making them by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), whose only remedy is faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18, Eph 2:8-9).

God has shut up all men in sin so that all salvation is only by his mercy (Ro 11:32) through faith (Jn 3:18, Eph 2:8-9).

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 4:23 PM

Clare73 said:
Having identified the elect as being humble as are little children, Jesus said you will not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you change and are like little children; i.e., humble.

Indeed. . .all those of Adam are born condemned unbelievers,
as the result of Adam's sin imputed to them at birth (Ro 5:17), and which is the pattern (Ro 5:14)
for Christ's righteousness imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

"God is the Savior of all men". . .who preserves and prospers them in the natural order, and has put them in a state where they can be saved, rather than a fixed state, as is Satan and the fallen angels.

It's not about an infant hardening himself.
It's about Adam's sin being imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19) as the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).

That imputation of Aam's sin condemns all mankind at birth, making them by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), whose only remedy is faith in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:18, Eph 2:8-9).

God has shut up all men in sin so that all salvation is only by his mercy (Ro 11:32) through faith (Jn 3:18, Eph 2:8-9).

I have read through your quotes. It is not correct to judge that infants and children are humble. Some of them have strong self esteem. "I am a king."

Infants have not hardened themselves, and haven't had much chance as from your quotes, to "lust"... It is far fetched to say a deceased infant is condemned. As from your quotes, they physically die but I say spiritually, they live. They have the soft hearts and trust, and God welcomes them, as from my quotes from Jesus' Gospel. This salvation is applied also to adults that Paul mentioned in Timothy.

Rome was a most wicked place! To be a Roman man in that culture was to sin. It was very hard for Roman Christians, some Romans were lost by their adult culture, being better off dying when still small. But even the worst of the worst, Jesus asked God the Father not to condemn the men who were crucifying him, for they did not know what they were doing.

God controls the afterlife by His mighty arm and angels. Some of the unbelievers are saved. 1 Timothy 4:10. But more of them could be if they had faith in Jesus. And trusted like little children.

Childlike trust, is part of good faith.

1 Timothy 4:6-12. In Part, NLT
6If you explain these things to the brothers and sisters,c Timothy, you will be a worthy servant of Christ Jesus, one who is nourished by the message of faith and the good teaching you have followed. 7Do not waste time arguing over godless ideas and old wives’ tales. Instead, train yourself to be godly. 8“Physical training is good, but training for godliness is much better, promising benefits in this life and in the life to come.” 9This is a trustworthy saying, and everyone should accept it. 10This is why we work hard and continue to struggle,d for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.

11Teach these things and insist that everyone learn them. 12Don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young.

Fervent · Saturday at 4:37 PM

GoldenKingGaze said:
Looking at God's salvation He offers through faith by grace, there is a responsibility in our parents, faith preachers and in us to respond and persist, with God's help that eventually leads to holiness with complete free will, and certain sinlessness forever despite any test and one is no longer temptable. In the afterlife.

If someone does not respond to the Gospel preached it may not have been preached well. If someone loses their salvation as in Hebrews 6:6, again, the ministry may have been substandard, and that church should close down. I am sure it is not God's predestined plan.

We need to pray, seek God for ourselves, discern kind versus narcissistic ministry, choose life, guard our hearts, seek more than a taste of grace to overcome sin.

Our responsibility is to heed the Holy Spirit. Living in a manner that reflects Christ in our lives is part of it, but there is also at times a need for what might appear prideful or confrontational. Let's not forget the example of Ananias and Sapphira and other displays of the severity of God. Sometimes, in limited circumstances, there is a need for what might not reflect the world's ideas about who Jesus is. So we must always be mindful of what the Spirit is telling us, and act accordingly.

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 4:47 PM

Calvinism has the problem of bringing together only part of scripture, and drawing conclusions too soon. There is the context of Rome and Greece, and Jerusalem in the first century to consider rather than saying it is the same here now. And Calvin allows the basis scripture to be contradicted by latter verses and so loses the shape of the foundation in the roof the conclusion. There is folly in it.

The idea that from birth, and in utero, that some infants are not elect, and the same with grown people, is irresponsible, allowing for some people to be neglected from work to make them elect who are resistant, not rejected. And considering God rejects some, takes the onus off the preacher and intercessors to be at ease instead of labouring like Paul for Jews and gentiles, adults and babes in arms for their election. Remembering Paul in Romans 10 wanted to do even more for the Jews. And he went back to preach more in places he had previous success to make more converts. And advised ones with non believing wives to keep them, and maybe even save them.

Predetermination of election leaves people at ease who should labour.

Clare73 · Saturday at 5:03 PM

GoldenKingGaze said:
I have read through your quotes. It is not correct to judge that infants and children are humble. Some of them have strong self esteem. "I am a king."

Jesus thought they were.

GoldenKingGaze said:
Infants have not hardened themselves, and haven't had much chance as from your quotes, to "lust"... It is far fetched to say a deceased infant is condemned. As from your quotes, they physically die but I say spiritually, they live. They have the soft hearts and trust, and God welcomes them, as from my quotes from Jesus' Gospel. This salvation is applied also to adults that Paul mentioned in Timothy.

It's all about the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

GoldenKingGaze · Saturday at 5:46 PM

Clare73 said:
Jesus thought they were.

It's all about the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:6-8).

Jesus taught in the Beatitudes, "blessed are the poor in spirit", we all really are poor. So it is good if we have a humble opinion of our spirit's power. Jesus did not teach in particular that the children are somehow humble, each one is unique. Some are proud. What He taught was they are from God and to welcome them and have trust not humility, like them.

The new birth can happen in life or in the afterlife, as with children who die apart from the opportunity to be born again. The Spirit is accountable, responsible to save us. He has means. The Spirit is not unaccountable like the wind, the wind is neither one nor the other. The Spirit like Jesus would die for even one and for every soul He loves. He does not create any non elect, non loved, non prerogatives of salvation in the new birth.

Jack Terrence · Tuesday at 5:12 PM

BBAS 64 said:
Good day, Jack

I can not find a single translation, or Greek lexicon that supports such an understand nor says that "condemned" is a valid understanding of what the word means.

I cannot find a single translation which says "spiritually dead." Paul simply said that we were dead in our trespasses and sins. The word "dead" is a metaphor. Paul wasn't talking about a spiritual corpse.

In Romans 8 he said that "the body is dead because of sin." He wasn't saying that our bodies were walking corpses. He was saying that our bodies are subject to death.

Gof told king Abimelech that he was a dead man for taking another man's wife. It meant that Abimelech was under the sentence of death, that is, he was under condemnation. That is what Paul meant in Ephesians 2. He meant that we were under the penalty of death. "And you were dead (condemned) in your trespasses and sins."

Jesus said that the one who believes in him shall not be conemned but is passed from death to life.

Dead metaphorically means under condemnation. It has nithing to do with a spiritual condition. It is a legal standing.

Salvation by grace through faith and our responsibility?

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