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If universalism is true then why did God send His Son to die for our sins?

Fervent

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So do you believe the OT people accepted Jesus after their mortal body had died?
Nope, i believe they were saved for trusting in the promises Jesus fulfilled. As Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."(John 8:56 ESV)
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Nope, i believe they were saved for trusting in the promises Jesus fulfilled. As Jesus said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."(John 8:56 ESV)
But that doesn’t deal with Adam till Abraham, what about them, they did not have that .
 
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Fervent

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But that doesn’t deal with Adam till Abraham, what about them, they did not have that .
If preceding Jesus temporally is irrelevant, why would preceding Abrahm temporally matter? Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the Earth, your objection is moot.
 
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Hentenza

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I understand what you believe, tradition says that man can only trust in Jesus while you are in your temporary mortal body, but no place in scripture does it say that.
No where in scripture does it say that there is salvation post mortem. What scripture does say in droves is that faith is necessary for salvation and every one of those verses are directed strictly to the living.
The only scripture that people point out is Hebrews that it is appointed for man to die once then the judgment, the lense that western church has used says judgement and punishment are the same, heaven or hell, but the tradition I follow is that of many of the early church, that 1 Cor 15:28 that God will be all in all- that is Gods telos and you work backwards from that telos, the only conclusion is that God pursues us, our true self, not just when we are in our temporary body. Most people need the mortal body striped away before they can see God/ Jesus as they are and will respond to reconcile only then,God is not bound by time, man tries to put that on God but he is not bound by our time table.
There are many scriptures we are told that its Gods plan to save all his creation and he will, Adams sin is not more powerful than Jesus and his sacrifice for all humanity.
Once again, if universalism is true then why did God sent His Son to die for our sins? Certainly God is powerful enough to save everyone without the sacrifice, right?
 
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Jeff Saunders

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If preceding Jesus temporally is irrelevant, why would preceding Abrahm temporally matter? Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the Earth, your objection is moot.
Can you show me in scripture that those from Adam till Abraham even had any idea about Jesus, even those under the old covenant had no idea of Jesus and what he was truly about, if they did they would have celebrated his incarnation and not killed him.
If the idea that the OT people were saved because they were looking forward to Jesus, very few of them understood so the ones "saved" under that system were very few and most would be damned looking for a king to overthrow the Romans and set up an earthly kingdom.
The idea that people were looking forward to Jesus preaches good to shore up the tradition but in reality it falls short.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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No where in scripture does it say that there is salvation post mortem. What scripture does say in droves is that faith is necessary for salvation and every one of those verses are directed strictly to the living.

Once again, if universalism is true then why did God sent His Son to die for our sins? Certainly God is powerful enough to save everyone without the sacrifice, right?
The idea that those who will have faith only in the mortal body is what scripture is talking about, does not add up to the big picture that scripture is painting. There are to many scriptures that either directly or indirectly say that all will be saved to just ignore or not to deal with at all.
All the scriptures that talk about "eternal hell" are totally shown to be false just by using the original Greek of that day, if one understands that the rest of the scriptures paint a beautiful story of a God who loves his creation and will stop at nothing to save his children, God has a plan and is working it, Jesus really is the savior of the world not a potential savior.
 
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Hentenza

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The idea that those who will have faith only in the mortal body is what scripture is talking about, does not add up to the big picture that scripture is painting. There are to many scriptures that either directly or indirectly say that all will be saved to just ignore or not to deal with at all.
All the scriptures that talk about "eternal hell" are totally shown to be false just by using the original Greek of that day, if one understands that the rest of the scriptures paint a beautiful story of a God who loves his creation and will stop at nothing to save his children, God has a plan and is working it, Jesus really is the savior of the world not a potential savior.
My friend. We have covered all of what you posted many times before. An opinion is not evidence. But I’ll tell you this, by doubting God’s plan you are in fact judging God and His awesome plan. Follow the scriptures not your opinion. God bless you.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Once again, if universalism is true then why did God sent His Son to die for our sins?
I am always amazed at the amount of times I have seen/heard this exact reply proposed against UR. It really blows my mind! You might just as well say if no one suffers eternal torment then the sacrifice of The Christ is meaningless. The absurdity of your question is put to rest by any number of Scriptures. You know them, so pick one and answer your own question from the Sacred Text.
Certainly God is powerful enough to save everyone without the sacrifice, right?
My brother, all those who hold to UR do so because we believe the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus is not just sufficient for ALL but in fact efficacious for ALL; regardless of which age man lives or dies. Like my brother Jeff has stated before, we just view the Scriptures through a different lens. Jeff and I may not agree on everything pertaining to UR but we do agree on this: LOVE (JESUS). NEVER. FAILS!

blessings,
 
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Hentenza

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I am always amazed at the amount of times I have seen/heard this exact reply proposed against UR. It really blows my mind! You might just as well say if no one suffers eternal torment then the sacrifice of The Christ is meaningless. The absurdity of your question is put to rest by any number of Scriptures. You know them, so pick one and answer your own question from the Sacred Text.
And yet you did not address the question. Typical
My brother, all those who hold to UR do so because we believe the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus is not just sufficient for ALL but in fact efficacious for ALL; regardless of which age man lives or dies. Like my brother Jeff has stated before, we just view the Scriptures through a different lens. Jeff and I may not agree on everything pertaining to UR but we do agree on this: LOVE (JESUS). NEVER. FAILS!
Love never fails indeed. So why would Jesus force anyone that hates Him to spend eternity with Him?
blessings,
blessings to you too.
 
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Fervent

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Can you show me in scripture that those from Adam till Abraham even had any idea about Jesus, even those under the old covenant had no idea of Jesus and what he was truly about, if they did they would have celebrated his incarnation and not killed him.
Hebrews 11.
If the idea that the OT people were saved because they were looking forward to Jesus, very few of them understood so the ones "saved" under that system were very few and most would be damned looking for a king to overthrow the Romans and set up an earthly kingdom.
The idea that people were looking forward to Jesus preaches good to shore up the tradition but in reality it falls short.
Equating the remnant of Israel with the wicked shepherds is a rather strange twist. Those who were responsible for Jesus death are the "not all Israel is Israel" that Paul spoke of.
 
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Jipsah

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Everything that is in scripture God designed.
Damnationists generally don't seem to think so. They appear to think hell was always there somehow and God had nothing to do with it.
Your assertion that pretty much everyone will be tortured forever is an emotional fallacy
It isn't my assertion, it's what damnationists , a group I am in no way a part of, believe that is how God has designed thr universe, The fact that such a belief portrays God as a pitiless monster beyond any human comparison doesn't move them in the least. .

I happen not to believe that. I believe that either God save everyone, or that those who aren't saved are removed from time/space, and thus never were. God :"never knew them", because they never existed. "Oh, but God can't do that! Baloney. God is by definition omnipotent, and if He declares that you never were, you never were, end discussion.

Right now, though, I lean toward the idea of universal redemption, because we're told that God desires it. Now if I were God, and I wanted everyone saved, by cracky they'd be saved! I reckon God's wants constitue laws of the universe. BUT... having said that, if God simply wants to simply remove the recalcitrant from ever having existed, then I see the justice in it and can't object.
since you have no method of quantifying this.
I have neither the need nor the desire
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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And yet you did not address the question. Typical
Of course I answered the question. I merely gave you the opportunity to answer it for yourself since you already know the answer.

”For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,“
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15‬:‭3‬-‭4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Love never fails indeed. So why would Jesus force anyone that hates Him to spend eternity with Him?

blessings to you too.
He doesn’t … Were you not once an enemy of God? Did you not hate God? If you are in agreement with the Scripture your answer will be yes to both questions. One more question. Is your love for God driven by fear, which would make it no love at all, or is your love for Him birthed out of His love for you? I trust it is from the latter of the two. Thus, I believe it will be for all men when they are confronted with pure divine love. This pure divine love is what will cause every knee to bow and every tongue confess.

Love (Jesus). Never. Fails.

blessings,
 
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