By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

NewLifeInChristJesus · Wednesday at 8:56 AM

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

Hoping2 · Wednesday at 1:25 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite? The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

Who is saying "the opposite" ?

Leaf473 · Wednesday at 2:15 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite?

In my experience here, devoted serious Bible students don't speak against the law

It's always a question of which laws from the Old Testament still apply today

‘You will never fail to have a man to sit before Me on the throne of Israel, if only your descendants guard their way to walk in My law as you have walked before Me.’ 2 Chronicles 6

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
The most obvious plausible answer is that they know it but are supressing the truth. There may be other answers, but I can't think of any.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 5:01 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

This verse is telling us what it means to be “under the law”. Which means under the condemnation of the law and be guilty before God, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

It also goes on to say that the law is the knowledge of sin. Do you believe God wants us to sin and break His law? If we do not know what sin is we just might do that.

Why Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

and John 1John 3:4 and James 2:11-12

It is not God’s will that we sin 1 John 2:1 Sin is not supposed to have dominion over someone who is in Christ

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

God will always give us a way to escape. 1 Cor 10:13

Paul is not teaching not to obey God‘s law, he very much taught the opposite 1 Cor 7:19 Rom 2:21-23 Rom 8:7-8

The law can’t save us, it just shows us what our sin is and so we are not depending on our version of righteousness (right or wrong), but on God’s Psa 119:172 I look at it as a mirror to show we are dirty James 1:22-25 and shows our need for Jesus and through Him we can overcome sin and temptations and keep His commandments Pro 28:13 1 John 1:9 John 14:15-18 John 15:4,5,10

Bob S · Wednesday at 5:56 PM

Before we enter into an agreement to follow Jesus and keep the commandments, we need to understand what the commands are that keep us from being "lawless". 1Jn3:19-24 tell us we belong to the TRUTH if we "believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us". Even a little child is able to comprehend that.
.
I believe we all agree that the covenant given to Israel at Sinai, by God, contained the laws that governed Israel. When we speak of keeping the commandments, do we determine that means all of the Laws God gave to Israel? Most all agree that Jesus brought to an end the laws concerning the sacrificial system. Many agree that the system of tithing ended at the destruction of Jerusalem. We don't tear down our homes when they become moldy. Most men cut their sideburns, and most eat things Israel was forbidden. Most do not keep Holy the feast days or the New Moon days.

Society agrees that we shouldn't steal, commit adultery, lie, covet and we honor our parents, all of which we do out of love and call them moral acts. Jesus incorporated those commands into one new command: love others as Jesus loves us. Jesus loves us so much that He was willing to be the eternal sacrifice for all mankind.

Bob S · Wednesday at 6:13 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

I do not see where it says

This verse is telling us what it means to be “under the law”. Which means under the condemnation of the law and be guilty before God, the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23

It also goes on to say that the law is the knowledge of sin. Do you believe God wants us to sin and break His law? If we do not know what sin is we just might do that.

Why Paul said:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

and John 1John 3:4 and James 2:11-12

It is not God’s will that we sin 1 John 2:1 Sin is not supposed to have dominion over someone who is in Christ

Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.

God will always give us a way to escape. 1 Cor 10:13

Paul is not teaching not to obey God‘s law, he very much taught the opposite 1 Cor 7:19 Rom 2:21-23 Rom 8:7-8

The law can’t save us, it just shows us what our sin is and so we are not depending on our version of righteousness (right or wrong), but on God’s Psa 119:172 I look at it as a mirror to show we are dirty James 1:22-25 and shows our need for Jesus and through Him we can overcome sin and temptations and keep His commandments Pro 28:13 1 John 1:9 John 14:15-18 John 15:4,5,10

Hi SB, you keep telling us that we are sinning because we do not observe the weekly Sabbath that was part of the law system given to one nation, Israel. The problem is that the Bible keeps telling us we are not under the Law. Nowhere in the New Testament does it tell anyone we must observe any day. In fact, Col 2 tells us not to allow anyone to judge us in those Old Covenant rituals. In Gal 3, Paul told us the laws of the Old Covenant. ceased when Jesus came. Nowhere, in all of scripture, does God ever tell Gentiles they must observe a day.

Since the Jews obligation to observe a day ended with the ratifying of the New and better Covenant, they too are free to worship when they please.

SabbathBlessings · Wednesday at 6:49 PM

Bob S said:
Hi SB, you keep telling us that we are sinning because we do not observe the weekly Sabbath that was part of the law system given to one nation, Israel. The problem is that the Bible keeps telling us we are not under the Law. Nowhere in the New Testament does it tell anyone we must observe any day. In fact, Col 2 tells us not to allow anyone to judge us in those Old Covenant rituals. In Gal 3, Paul told us the laws of the Old Covenant. ceased when Jesus came. Nowhere, in all of scripture, does God ever tell Gentiles they must observe a day.

Since the Jews obligation to observe a day ended with the ratifying of the New and better Covenant, they too are free to worship when they please.

The Sabbath is a commandment of God, God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him and not to murder our brethren. The Sabbath was never separated by the other nine commandments- God placed them in a unit of Ten and called them "My commandments" Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 so if we think we no longer need to only worship God or can murder our brethren, the commandments are for us even in the NC James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Luke 4:6 Luke 23:56 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 etc In the entire Bible there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Jews. God claimed it as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 and Jesus said it was made for man the Greek words He used means mankind and the Hebrew word means Adam.. The Sabbath started at Creation when there was just man and God. Exo 20:11 Isa 56:6 indicates the Sabbath is for everyone, thus saith the Lord, or at least those who want to do justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 so this argument is really with a much Higher Authority than I.

Guess it will all get sorted out at His soon return.

BobRyan · Wednesday at 8:57 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (Ro 3:19–20)

These two sentences are pretty easy to understand. The first sentence says that the law shuts every person's mouth and causes them to understand they are guilty of sin before God. For these reasons, the second sentence says that God will not declare anyone righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law, and everyone understands this because the law teaches people they are sinners.

agreed.

No amount of trying to "not take God's name in vain" will forgive sins or make a sinner a saint.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Do these verses speak the truth? Does everyone who sees/hears/knows the law understand they are sinners

John 16 the Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment".

=============================================
Now let's pivot to the SAME Law of God - but from the perspective of the born-again new Covenant saint.

Law written on the heart..

"Law fulfilled in us who do not walk after the sinful nature (flesh) but after the Spirit" - Rom 8.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
and that God will not declare them righteous on the basis of their obedience to the law? Yes. It is not phyiscally possible for a person to gaze into the law and go away deceived into thinking he is right with God because of his obedience to the law.

Indeed - the perspective of the lost.

So then Rom 2:4-16 contrasts the case of the lost - with the case of the saved - repeatedly.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite?

How many do we see saying "do not take God's name in vain so that you can earn your salvation and will not need to accept Christ as your savior"??

BobRyan · Wednesday at 8:59 PM

Leaf473 said:
In my experience here, devoted serious Bible students don't speak against the law

Neither does the New Covenant.
Neither does Paul in Rom 7

Leaf473 said:
It's always a question of which laws from the Old Testament still apply today

"As if" - taking God's name in vain will still be a "bad thing" even for saved saints. ???

BobRyan · Wednesday at 9:06 PM

Bob S said:
Before we enter into an agreement to follow Jesus and keep the commandments, we need to understand what the commands are that keep us from being "lawless".

James 2 - break one of them -- then you have broken all of them

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For He who said
, “Do not commit adultery,”
also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.

Bob S said:
1Jn3:19-24 tell us we belong to the TRUTH if we "believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us". Even a little child is able to comprehend that.

And all the other commands you did not list - that appear in the New Testament

Such as "honor your father and mother" Lev 19':18
"Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

No wonder Paul attended worship services "every Sabbath" preaching the Gospel week after week to both Jews and gentiles - Acts 18:4

Bob S said:
.
I believe we all agree that the covenant given to Israel at Sinai, by God, contained the laws

yep.

And that included "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
And "Love God with all your heart" Deut 6:5

Bob S said:
Society agrees that we shouldn't steal, commit adultery, lie, covet and we honor our parents,

Is God limited to whatever atheist society can clearly see. Do atheists dictate to God?

John 14:15 "if you Love Me keep MY commandments" not "keep the atheist's commands".

And Heb 8 tells us that it is Christ speaking at Sinai

Leaf473 · Thursday at 8:43 AM

BobRyan said:
Neither does the New Covenant.
Neither does Paul in Rom 7

Yes, the law is good and holy

BobRyan said:
"As if" - taking God's name in vain will still be a "bad thing" even for saved saints. ???

Okay, taking God's name in vain - disrespecting God's character - is a bad thing

Is refusing to put tassels on your clothes a bad thing, in your view?

I find more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and traps, whose hands are chains. Whoever pleases God shall escape from her; but the sinner will be ensnared by her Ecclesiastes 7

Bob S · Thursday at 9:04 AM

SabbathBlessings said:
The Sabbath is a commandment of God, God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him and not to murder our brethren. The Sabbath was never separated by the other nine commandments- God placed them in a unit of Ten and called them "My commandments" Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 so if we think we no longer need to only worship God or can murder our brethren, the commandments are for us even in the NC James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Luke 4:6 Luke 23:56 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 etc In the entire Bible there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Jews. God claimed it as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 and Jesus said it was made for man the Greek words He used means mankind and the Hebrew word means Adam.. The Sabbath started at Creation when there was just man and God. Exo 20:11 Isa 56:6 indicates the Sabbath is for everyone, thus saith the Lord, or at least those who want to do justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 so this argument is really with a much Higher Authority than I.

Ex 16:29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day.

The lack of manna was the sign of the Sabbath for the Israelites. There is absolutely no evidence that God gave the Sabbath to any other nation. You can use the verse that the Sabbath was given to man, but there is no evidence that the spreading of the Gospel contained any reference to Sabbath keeping. Paul referred to the Ten Commandments as the ministry of death. That would include the Sabbath command and said the ten were only temporary. We are not under the demands of the Ten Commandments. They were the laws contained in the old covenant. We are living in the eternal new covenant with new laws. Loving others as Jesus loves us covers not murdering or any other sin that man has conceived.

Gentiles have never been under the laws given only to Israel. Where do you get it that somehow we are now? Could it be from your false prophet?

SabbathBlessings said:
Guess it will all get sorted out at His soon return.

Yep, that is what your false prophet said in the 1850s.

I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: “Some food for worms, [Sister Clarissa M. Bonfoey, who fell asleep in Jesus only three days after this vision was given, was present in usual health, and was deeply impressed that she was one who would go into the grave, and stated her convictions to others.] some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” 1T 131.3

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 9:39 AM

Hoping2 said:
Who is saying "the opposite" ?

Good question. I wasn't thinking about those who put forward the doctrine of sinless perfection. I don't really see them as being in the same category as those who put forward righteousness through obedience to the law. But Bob's comment below causes me to question my reasoning.

BobRyan said:
Indeed - the perspective of the lost.

This surprises me a bit. I've never heard anyone say that only the lost have knowledge of their sins.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 10:00 AM

Leaf473 said:
In my experience here, devoted serious Bible students don't speak against the law

The law is good. But it kills. And it can't give life, even though it promises life to those who obey. Saying these things is not speaking against the law. It is speaking the truth about the law.

Leaf473 said:
It's always a question of which laws from the Old Testament still apply today

‘You will never fail to have a man to sit before Me on the throne of Israel, if only your descendants guard their way to walk in My law as you have walked before Me.’ 2 Chronicles 6

We can test that theory.

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:37–38)

Who would argue that this commandment is not in effect today? Nobody. And who would argue that they stand before God spotless in regard to this commandment? Only those whos sins are separated from him as far as the east is from the west.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Thursday at 10:05 AM

Bob S said:
Before we enter into an agreement to follow Jesus and keep the commandments, we need to understand what the commands are that keep us from being "lawless". 1Jn3:19-24 tell us we belong to the TRUTH if we "believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us". Even a little child is able to comprehend that.
.
I believe we all agree that the covenant given to Israel at Sinai, by God, contained the laws that governed Israel. When we speak of keeping the commandments, do we determine that means all of the Laws God gave to Israel? Most all agree that Jesus brought to an end the laws concerning the sacrificial system. Many agree that the system of tithing ended at the destruction of Jerusalem. We don't tear down our homes when they become moldy. Most men cut their sideburns, and most eat things Israel was forbidden. Most do not keep Holy the feast days or the New Moon days.

Society agrees that we shouldn't steal, commit adultery, lie, covet and we honor our parents, all of which we do out of love and call them moral acts. Jesus incorporated those commands into one new command: love others as Jesus loves us. Jesus loves us so much that He was willing to be the eternal sacrifice for all mankind.

God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,

And whose sins are covered;

8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”

The New King James Version (Ro 4:6–8). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

Leaf473 · Thursday at 11:00 AM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
The law is good. But it kills. And it can't give life, even though it promises life to those who obey.

True!

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Saying these things is not speaking against the law. It is speaking the truth about the law.

I may have misunderstood what you meant here

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Why then, do we see so many people speaking the opposite?

Please clarify

The opposite of...?

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
We can test that theory.

37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. (Mt 22:37–38)

Who would argue that this commandment is not in effect today? Nobody. And who would argue that they stand before God spotless in regard to this commandment? Only those whos sins are separated from him as far as the east is from the west.

I hear that

There are some laws from the Old Testament that Christians in general say are in effect today. And other laws that they generally agree have ended

What usually ends up being discussed here, though, is the laws in between... And whether the Sabbath commandment in the Ten commandment falls into the "today" or "ended" category

Interestingly, most people who observe the seventh day are not interested in discussing the in-between laws here

I think that's unfortunate, because it's an apparent weakness in Seventh-Day theology

Hoping2 · Thursday at 1:32 PM

SabbathBlessings said:
The Sabbath is a commandment of God, God placed it in the same unit as only worship Him and not to murder our brethren. The Sabbath was never separated by the other nine commandments- God placed them in a unit of Ten and called them "My commandments" Deut 4:13 Exo 20:6 so if we think we no longer need to only worship God or can murder our brethren, the commandments are for us even in the NC James 2:11-12 Mat 5:19-30 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 15:3-14 Mat 19:17-19 Luke 4:6 Luke 23:56 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 etc In the entire Bible there is no Scripture that says the Sabbath is the Sabbath of the Jews. God claimed it as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13 and Jesus said it was made for man the Greek words He used means mankind and the Hebrew word means Adam.. The Sabbath started at Creation when there was just man and God. Exo 20:11 Isa 56:6 indicates the Sabbath is for everyone, thus saith the Lord, or at least those who want to do justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 so this argument is really with a much Higher Authority than I.

Guess it will all get sorted out at His soon return.

Why not just keep every day holy ?
Jesus has made that possible, by His suffering, death, burial, and resurrection.

Hoping2 · Thursday at 1:34 PM

BobRyan said:
Neither does the New Covenant.
Neither does Paul in Rom 7

"As if" - taking God's name in vain will still be a "bad thing" even for saved saints. ???

If someone is taking the Lord's name in vain, how can he be perceived as a saint ?

Hoping2 · Thursday at 1:39 PM

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
Good question. I wasn't thinking about those who put forward the doctrine of sinless perfection. I don't really see them as being in the same category as those who put forward righteousness through obedience to the law. But Bob's comment below causes me to question my reasoning.

Yeah that would be different types of people.
The first...dependent on God' Spirit within them to keep us holy.
The second...dependent on their own perception of the Law.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:
This surprises me a bit. I've never heard anyone say that only the lost have knowledge of their sins.

Only the lost commit sin.
The found, keep following their Great Shepherd.

SabbathBlessings · Thursday at 1:46 PM

Hoping2 said:
Why not just keep every day holy ?
Jesus has made that possible, by His suffering, death, burial, and resurrection.

Because the 4th commandment is not just the commandment for the Sabbath- it is for all days. Exo 20:8-11

God commanded us to work 6 days Exo 20:9 and keep the seventh day Sabbath holy Exo 20:8

If we kept every day as the Sabbath, no work would get done, no one would be able to support themselves. God knows our every need and knows we have to work and designed us to work and if every day was holy, would take away the sacredness of the Sabbath. God never designed it this way from Creation and I think instead of judging one of His commandments, I think it shows faith if we obey Him the way He said, and trust He knows what is best for us, since after all He did make us and all of Creation.

That's not to say we should not worship Him 365 24/7 but God in His wisdom that we should trust, only sanctified one day in all of Scripture, Exo 20:11 Gen 2:1-3 He set aside holy time to spend time with man so He can bless Isa 56:2 and sanctify us Eze 20:12 because man can't sanctify themselves Isa 66:17 despite our best efforts.

Jesus said If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15 Exo 20:6 do we have more love for the world to follow what everyone else is doing or should we fix our eyes on Jesus and through our faith and love obey Him the way He asks. Its all about choices Rom 6:16

Eze 22:26 Her priests have [g]violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and unholy, nor have they made known the difference between the unclean and the clean; and they have hidden their eyes from My Sabbaths, so that I am profaned among them.

By the Law Is the Knowledge of Sin

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