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If universalism is true then why did God send His Son to die for our sins?

Jeff Saunders

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Nowhere is scripture does it teach that anyone can “believe” in Him after death. No where in scripture does it teach that there is salvation after death.

“And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Die once get judged. Pretty clear.
Please tell me how all the people from Adam to Jesus get to the Father if they do not go through Jesus.
 
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Fervent

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You are making quite the reach here. CH Spurgeon is on his own about his comment.
Not at all, I find Spurgeon to be quite astute with his statement. To love Christ is to abhor sin and be grieved by it, not to avoid it because of a fear or punishment or desire for reward. If your desire is for sin, then it would seem you haven't truly had the metanoia that relationship with Christ brings.
 
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Jipsah

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If universalism is true and all will be saved “after an age” then why did God sent His Son to die for the sins of those who believe?
Maybe because God designed it that way? I mean, if pretty much everyone is going to be tortured in hellfire forever it's because God designed it that way. So if everyone is going to be saved and live forever in bliss, it's also because God designed It that way. Why was it necessary that our Lord die and rise again in either case? Because God designed it that way.
Why would the Bible spend so much ink teaching us that faith is necessary for salvation?
Because it is necessary?
“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
Amen
 
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Clare73

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These statements are both from Romans but talking about different things.
Rom 11:25 the mystery is that a hardness has come upon one part of Israel until the full totality of the gentiles enter in, And thus all of Israel shall be saved, just as has been written. This is talking about the end of the age.
The Israel that will be saved is all the true Israel which believes in Jesus Christ.
vs 32 For God shut up everyone on obstinacy so that he might show mercy to everyone.
Rom 9:6 For not all of those who come from Israel are Israel. This is not talking about the end of the age, Paul was talking about the Israel that was there at that time, not future.
What was Paul talking about, I am not sure, but reading both scriptures and the surrounding verses I don't know for sure what he was talking about, I have ideas but like scripture says its a mystery.
 
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Hentenza

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Lol … I don’t.
But you are since you believe that salvation is possible after death.
Not so fast Mr. Accuracy … You are not standing on your position of ”to die once” but rather making up your own rules of interpretation. It matters not if in the current life or judgement day. Scripture says man dies once and you can’t account for it except to make up something to deflect away from your unstable position. Once means once. No? Still have an unaccounted for contradiction.
There is no contradiction. You still have not even addressed the verse I posted.
Not sure what you mean by this Scripture without any comments about how you are applying this passage? I believe this passage states exactly what it says. Not sure what else to say.
Ok. I thought it was self explanatory. Here it is.

“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

It is the second death.


Your passage above says the Second Death IS the LOF. How do you arrive at using them as distinct one from the other?
One is regular death and the other is the second death for those not resurrected and those in hades which are the wicked and all in hades.
See highlighted/underlined below in the same passage I quoted only a different translation. It says “hurt” not “killed.”

““And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

These are the believers that the devil will throw in prison for 10 days to be tested. If they overcome they will not be hurt. Nothing here about all.
Do you stand on the Scriptures and the guiding of the Spirit of Truth or a council? Ah yes. Safety in numbers …
Same thing. UR is not in scripture.
No fear mongering my friend just pointing out the gravity of your position and the implications of your interpretation. Live with it …

Ok
You claim that most people will go into the LOF which is a fear monger it tactic delivered as an emotional fallacy to impart fear. However you have no way to quantify your statement.
 
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Hentenza

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Maybe because God designed it that way? I mean, if pretty much everyone is going to be tortured in hellfire forever it's because God designed it that way. So if everyone is going to be saved and live forever in bliss, it's also because God designed It that way. Why was it necessary that our Lord die and rise again in either case? Because God designed it that way.
Everything that is in scripture God designed. Your assertion that pretty much everyone will be tortured forever is an emotional fallacy since you have no method of quantifying this.
Because it is necessary?
Yep.
Amen also. :wave:
 
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Hentenza

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Not at all, I find Spurgeon to be quite astute with his statement. To love Christ is to abhor sin and be grieved by it, not to avoid it because of a fear or punishment or desire for reward. If your desire is for sin, then it would seem you haven't truly had the metanoia that relationship with Christ brings.
You explained yourself much better in this post. I agree.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Lol … I don’t.
But you are since you believe that salvation is possible after death.

Reply: No. I don’t “build” my theology around any “one” thing. My hope in Christ concerning UR, is based on an abundance of Scripture stating this beautiful truth. Which in turn is affirmed in my spirit by His Spirit.
Not so fast Mr. Accuracy … You are not standing on your position of ”to die once” but rather making up your own rules of interpretation. It matters not if in the current life or judgement day. Scripture says man dies once and you can’t account for it except to make up something to deflect away from your unstable position. Once means once. No? Still have an unaccounted for contradiction.
There is no contradiction.

Reply: Refusal to acknowledge contradiction does not make it go away.

You still have not even addressed the verse I posted.

Reply: I’m not ignorant. I know how to read. What I am not is a mind reader. So … what is your question concerning your quoted passage? I affirm death and hades are thrown in to the LOF, which is the second death. Do you or do you not have a question surrounding this passage? Sheeesh …
Not sure what you mean by this Scripture without any comments about how you are applying this passage? I believe this passage states exactly what it says. Not sure what else to say.
Ok. I thought it was self explanatory. Here it is.

“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
bible.com

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
bible.com
It is the second death.


Your passage above says the Second Death IS the LOF. How do you arrive at using them as distinct one from the other?
One is regular death and the other is the second death for those not resurrected and those in hades which are the wicked and all in hades.

Reply: I’m sorry but you are not making any sense.
See highlighted/underlined below in the same passage I quoted only a different translation. It says “hurt” not “killed.”
““And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
bible.com

Revelation 2:8-11 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b | New American Standard Bible -

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b
bible.com
These are the believers that the devil will throw in prison for 10 days to be tested. If they overcome they will not be hurt. Nothing here about all.

Reply: You are simply all over the place my brother. Your house of cards is crumbling all around you. In a previous response of yours you asked “where does it say “hurt” instead of “killed.” Now you are quoting it?
Do you stand on the Scriptures and the guiding of the Spirit of Truth or a council? Ah yes. Safety in numbers …
Same thing. UR is not in scripture.

Reply: Ok.

No fear mongering my friend just pointing out the gravity of your position and the implications of your interpretation. Live with it …

Ok
You claim that most people will go into the LOF

Reply: No. Your theology places most people in eternal fire. Not mine … Are you confused about your position?

which is a fear monger it tactic delivered as an emotional fallacy to impart fear.

Reply: Again, I am merely reminding you of “your theological dilemma.” Like I said, live with it. It’s your reality.

However you have no way to quantify your statement.

Reply: Scratching head … which statement am I unable to quantify?

PS I’m going to leave you to it … I simply cannot follow your train of thought. I hope you find rest from your fear brother.

blessings

Last edited: Today at 5:49 PM
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior.

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Hentenza

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But you are since you believe that salvation is possible after death.

Reply: No. I don’t “build” my theology around any “one” thing. My hope in Christ concerning UR, is based on an abundance of Scripture stating this beautiful truth. Which in turn is affirmed in my spirit by His Spirit.

There is no contradiction.

Reply: Refusal to acknowledge contradiction does not make it go away.

You still have not even addressed the verse I posted.

Reply: I’m not ignorant. I know how to read. What I am not is a mind reader. So … what is your question concerning your quoted passage? I affirm death and hades are thrown in to the LOF, which is the second death. Do you or do you not have a question surrounding this passage? Sheeesh …

Ok. I thought it was self explanatory. Here it is.

“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
bible.com

Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
bible.com
It is the second death.



One is regular death and the other is the second death for those not resurrected and those in hades which are the wicked and all in hades.

Reply: I’m sorry but you are not making any sense.

““And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander by those who say they are Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. The one who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭8‬-‭11‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
bible.com

Revelation 2:8-11 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b | New American Standard Bible -

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: T he first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this: ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the slander b
bible.com
These are the believers that the devil will throw in prison for 10 days to be tested. If they overcome they will not be hurt. Nothing here about all.

Reply: You are simply all over the place my brother. Your house of cards is crumbling all around you. In a previous response of yours you asked “where does it say “hurt” instead of “killed.” Now you are quoting it?

Same thing. UR is not in scripture.

Reply: Ok.


You claim that most people will go into the LOF

Reply: No. Your theology places most people in eternal fire. Not mine … Are you confused about your position?

which is a fear monger it tactic delivered as an emotional fallacy to impart fear.

Reply: Again, I am merely reminding you of “your theological dilemma.” Like I said, live with it. It’s your reality.

However you have no way to quantify your statement.

Reply: Scratching head … which statement am I unable to quantify?

PS I’m going to leave you to it … I simply cannot follow your train of thought. I hope you find rest from your fear brother.

blessings

Last edited: Today at 5:49 PM
“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.- Our Lord and Savior.

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Why didn’t you quote my actual post? You are merely paraphrasing my post and adding commentary that I did not say. That is disingenuous.
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Why didn’t you quote my actual post? You are merely paraphrasing my post and adding commentary that I did not say. That is disingenuous.
Good grief … about what am I being disingenuous? Quote yourself back for me and point out how I misrepresented you?
 
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Hentenza

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Good grief … about what am I being disingenuous? Quote yourself back for me and point out how I misrepresented you?
Your post is such a mess that it is hard to understand who said what. The quote boxes are you not me.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

Rom 11:32-God bound everyone to disobedience so...
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One of the most famous verses known by Christians, agnostics, and even atheists is John 3:16.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

If universalism is true and all will be saved “after an age” then why did God sent His Son to die for the sins of those who believe? Why would the Bible spend so much ink teaching us that faith is necessary for salvation?

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
Does Jesus love all people or not?
 
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Free2bHeretical4Him!

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Your post is such a mess that it is hard to understand who said what. The quote boxes are you not me.
Yea, guilty as charged. This cut and paste format on my IPad is a bit tiresome at times. I tried to bring a bit of clarity by using “Reply” to note my response. Nevertheless, since you stated I was disingenuous I expected you would be able to demonstrate how, by quoting “your own post.” Like another proponent of ECT, who made an accusation against me but never demonstrated how, you also fail to do so … or apologize for said accusation, which they also did not.

blessings
 
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Jeff Saunders

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In God. You don’t think that anyone was saved by law did you?
So faith in God ? Did not Jesus say that no man comes to the Father except through him ?( John 14:6 ) Do you believe that all have to go through Jesus to get to the Father or are there other ways to get to the Father?
 
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Hentenza

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So faith in God ? Did not Jesus say that no man comes to the Father except through him ?( John 14:6 )
Jesus was present in the OT times but not yet in the new covenant. The old covenant included the law which He fulfilled, however, it was not the law that saved the people of the OT times it was faith.

“¶“Behold, as for the impudent one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous one will live by his faith.”
‭‭Habakkuk‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
Habakkuk 2:4 ¶“Behold, as for the impudent one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous one will live by his faith. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
Do you believe that all have to go through Jesus to get to the Father or are there other ways to get to the Father?
Yes. I completely believe in the terms of the new covenant.
 
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Jeff Saunders

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Jesus was present in the OT times but not yet in the new covenant. The old covenant included the law which He fulfilled, however, it was not the law that saved the people of the OT times it was faith.

“¶“Behold, as for the impudent one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous one will live by his faith.”
‭‭Habakkuk‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
Habakkuk 2:4 ¶“Behold, as for the impudent one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous one will live by his faith. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.””
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Yes. I completely believe in the terms of the new covenant.
Under the old covenant did those people have to put there trust in Jesus to go to the Father after their mortal body died?
 
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Hentenza

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Under the old covenant did those people have to put there trust in Jesus to go to the Father after their mortal body died?
After death they would have encountered the Trinity. Jesus would still be in His God form.
 
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