If universalism is true then why did God send His Son to die for our sins?

[caffeinated.hermit]

In Catholic teachings those that go to purgatory are those who die in God’s grace and just need additional cleansing. No unbelivers are included.

True, that. I hold out hope that all souls are given the chance to trust in Christ at the last moment (like the Thief on the cross), and technically, be possibly among the saved. It's just a hope.

 

[Hentenza]

True, that. I hold out hope that all souls are given the chance to trust in Christ at the last moment (like the Thief on the cross), and technically, be possibly among the saved. It's just a hope.

I pray for that daily.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

One of the most famous verses known by Christians, agnostics, and even atheists is John 3:16.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

If universalism is true and all will be saved “after an age” then why did God sent His Son to die for the sins of those who believe? Why would the Bible spend so much ink teaching us that faith is necessary for salvation?

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

bible.com

Christian Universal Redemption is only possible because of what Jesus did for us. John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the cosmos.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Why should I even follow Jesus and continue sinning at will if at the end it does not matter since I will be saved anyway?

Most people that follow Christian Universal Redemption do not think that way at all, there is a place of refinement for those who reject Jesus in the mortal body and it will not be pleasant, the difference is we know that it is not eternal. Why would Jesus tell us to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you if he does not do the same ? That makes God a do as say not as I do God.
My question is do you only follow Jesus out of fear of hell, or has the love of Jesus won you over, once you experience Gods love and walk with him why would you want to keep sinning, I don't not sin because I am afraid of hell, I love Jesus and do not want to sin and have to deal with the consequences of sin, if you love someone why would you do things that grieve them.
Also the offer we have is to be one with Jesus and rule and reign with him, those who are reconciled after this life lose that inheritance and are now subjects of Gods kingdom, not rulers with Jesus.
Jesus saved all through the cross, its not heaven or hell, the offer we get is are we going to be part of the kingdom or a subject of that kingdom.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

We should define " love" first. Universalism has a " hyper love" view of God rather than a " divine love" as described in scripture. God sent Himself in the flesh, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He spread His Divine Love to all by preaching His Gospel and whosoever believes in Him shall not perish and receive His Holy Spirit. It is not possible to find this flesh driven " hyper love" in scripture which is why it would be impossible to imagine Universalism to be true.
Blessings

If God is love as scripture claims, not a God who has love as a attribute, but love itself is God, he is love, and he is infinite, so his love is infinite.
Even " hyper love" comes short, any measure we put on Gods love , will fall short.
How do you add to infinite?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

As would you. . .

Paul thinks otherwise, he said all of Israel will be saved, if not through Jesus who?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

True, that. I hold out hope that all souls are given the chance to trust in Christ at the last moment (like the Thief on the cross), and technically, be possibly among the saved. It's just a hope.

God has all the time of eternity to get the job done, scripture no place says you can only be reconciled while in the mortal body.
All those from Adam till Jesus had to bend the knee after the mortal body died, unless you believe there are multiple ways to God.
John 14:6 I am the way and truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[ozso]

One of the most famous verses known by Christians, agnostics, and even atheists is John 3:16.

““For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

bible.com

If universalism is true and all will be saved “after an age” then why did God sent His Son to die for the sins of those who believe? Why would the Bible spend so much ink teaching us that faith is necessary for salvation?

“But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2‬:‭4‬-‭9‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God

bible.com

I'm not a proponent of Christian Universalism, but I know about it. The idea is Christ's death and resurrection saved everyone. A couple of several verses used to back that up I remember offhand are:

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 (Universalists say all of Romans 5 supports universal salvation).

 

[Hentenza]

I'm not a proponent of Christian Universalism, but I know about it. The idea is Christ's death and resurrection saved everyone. A couple of several verses used to back that up I remember offhand are:

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 (Universalists say all of Romans 5 supports universal salvation).

He is indeed the savior of all people. He died for all, however, many will not believe. Many will continue in their evil ways. The verses you cited need to be interpreted in light of the many verses that exhorts the person to believe in order to be saved. These are many.

The problem with universalists and Romans 5 is that they interpret it in a vacuum. The original bible was written on a scroll and had no chapters. They need to continue reading Romans 6 to get a better understanding.


“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for the one who has died is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 6:1-7 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into | New American Standard Bible - NASB

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into

bible.com

The first words “what shall we say then” works like “therefore” in the sense that it explains or concludes chapter 5. Chapter 6 does not in any way agree with universalism. Every cult reads the Bible in the best way that seems to “support” their teachings. They will ignore the verses that disagree with their teachings. One must be careful of the false prophets.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I'm not a proponent of Christian Universalism, but I know about it. The idea is Christ's death and resurrection saved everyone. A couple of several verses used to back that up I remember offhand are:

"That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!" Romans 5:15 (Universalists say all of Romans 5 supports universal salvation).

The real sticking point is does God pursue us after the mortal body we are temporarily attached to dies.
I personally do not believe that God only loves and pursues us only while in the mortal body, God saves us, we are not our mortal body, God does not save our body but us.
We live forever so why would God quit after a short time, is that love?

 

[Hentenza]

God has all the time of eternity to get the job done, scripture no place says you can only be reconciled while in the mortal body.
All those from Adam till Jesus had to bend the knee after the mortal body died, unless you believe there are multiple ways to God.
John 14:6 I am the way and truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

Nowhere is scripture does it teach that anyone can “believe” in Him after death. No where in scripture does it teach that there is salvation after death.

“And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment

bible.com

Die once get judged. Pretty clear.

 

[ozso]

He is indeed the savior of all people. He died for all, however, many will not believe. Many will continue in their evil ways. The verses you cited need to be interpreted in light of the many verses that exhorts the person to believe in order to be saved. These are many.

The problem with universalists and Romans 5 is that they interpret it in a vacuum. The original bible was written on a scroll and had no chapters. They need to continue reading Romans 6 to get a better understanding.


“What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for the one who has died is freed from sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭1‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Romans 6:1-7 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into | New American Standard Bible - NASB

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into

bible.com

The first words “what shall we say then” works like “therefore” in the sense that it explains or concludes chapter 5. Chapter 6 does not in any way agree with universalism. Every cult reads the Bible in the best way that seems to “support” their teachings. They will ignore the verses that disagree with their teachings. One must be careful of the false prophets.

Okay. Like I said I'm not a proponent of universalism, so I'm not going to argue in favor of it. Even though I could. Unless I change my mind of course.

I will say however that there are some very high level Christian scholars who teach universalism, so it really can't be easily dismissed as "they don't know scripture very well".

My personal position is I don't know for sure.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

If God is love as scripture claims, not a God who has love as a attribute, but love itself is God, he is love, and he is infinite, so his love is infinite.
Even " hyper love" comes short, any measure we put on Gods love , will fall short.
How do you add to infinite?

"Hyper love" is flesh driven, obsessive and twisted so it is a wrong kind of love. "Divine Love" is our Father's love towards us which is perfect.

 

[Kathleen30]

From the universalists perspective I guess it’s a rather easy reply. Gods Son had to die to redeem all of humanity be that past, present and future from their sin

 

[Hentenza]

Okay. Like I said I'm not a proponent of universalism, so I'm not going to argue in favor of it. Even though I could. Unless I change my mind of course.

I will say however that there are some very high level Christian scholars who teach universalism, so it really can't be easily dismissed as "they don't know scripture very well".

My personal position is I don't know for sure.

We have 10000 plus denominations because we have “high level Christian scholars” that know scripture. lol To me if the teaching is taught throughout scripture evenly then it is true but if it is only “taught” via a few verses that are in tension with others, then is not true. Of course, I don’t pretend to understand God‘s ways and mechanisms that He chose not to reveal In scripture.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Nowhere is scripture does it teach that anyone can “believe” in Him after death. No where in scripture does it teach that there is salvation after death.

“And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9‬:‭27‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 9:27 And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment | New American Standard Bible - NASB (NASB2020) | Download The Bible App Now

And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment

bible.com

Die once get judged. Pretty clear.

Hebrews says that it is appointed for man to die once then the judgement, but it does not say what that judgement is, most assume that its heaven or hell, but I believe that it is did you follow Jesus or not, if yes , you go to God, if no, you go to the refinement of the age, Gods punishment are for correction.
John 14:6 " I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me"
If you believe that you can not be reconciled to Jesus after death then you have two choices to make, either you have multiple ways to the Father and Jesus is just one of them or all those from Adam to Jesus can never see the Father because they would not have accepted him while in the mortal body.
I believe that when Jesus said he was the only way to the Father he meant that for all time. So all from Adam till Jesus had to believe after death.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"Hyper love" is flesh driven, obsessive and twisted so it is a wrong kind of love. "Divine Love" is our Father's love towards us which is perfect.

Who is the one who decides what is hyper and what is not?

 

[Hentenza]

Hebrews says that it is appointed for man to die once then the judgement, but it does not say what that judgement is, most assume that its heaven or hell, but I believe that it is did you follow Jesus or not, if yes , you go to God, if no, you go to the refinement of the age, Gods punishment are for correction.
John 14:6 " I am the way and the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me"
If you believe that you can not be reconciled to Jesus after death then you have two choices to make, either you have multiple ways to the Father and Jesus is just one of them or all those from Adam to Jesus can never see the Father because they would not have accepted him while in the mortal body.
I believe that when Jesus said he was the only way to the Father he meant that for all time. So all from Adam till Jesus had to believe after death.

Judgement of the unbelievers.

“For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10‬:‭26‬-‭31‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Hebrews 10:26-31 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL C | New American Standard Bible -

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL C

bible.com

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Who is the one who decides what is hyper and what is not?

Hyper has different meanings depending on the context. I am using this definition:

An excessive, exaggerated, or uncontrolled degree of something, often to the point of being detrimental or dysfunctional. It suggests a state that goes beyond what is normal, healthy, or desirable.

 

[Clare73]

Paul thinks otherwise, he said all of Israel will be saved, if not through Jesus who?

He also demonstrates that not all Israel is "Israel."