Why did God choose Israel?

Jamdoc · Jun 18, 2025

fhansen said:
I think all humans sort of default to an image of God as being distant, aloof in His superiority, angry, etc, and "jealous of His prerogatives" as it's been said, and that this is a distorted image actually first conceived at the Fall. Jesus revealed a very different God, but one Whom we must come to know for ourselves-and who is taught by some catechisms, for example, and yet not always understood and taught and modeled so well by the teachers, themselves: Matt 23:3 rings in my head here.

Anyway, I've gradually come to know of a God who-is-love, who would actually place Himself on a cross and suffer an excruciatingly humiliating and painful passion and death on a cross in human flesh to show just how far that love would go for us-in order to prove itself to us, for our good. A God who always had man’s best and highest interest-and uncompromised satisfaction and happiness-at heart while enmity came/comes from man, not Him. Our job here is to come to learn of that God-and value Him above all else as Adam failed to do at the beginning.

“Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

To truly know Him is to love Him, BTW.

the thing is though, through some teachings/teachers, the cross was even done for a self serving purpose: "For His glory" IE, He did it all so that you're indebted to sing His praises forever. It gives God an ego, that He desires be stroked.

Hard chain of thoughts to break out of because there is biblical support that everything is for His glory, and I can't separate a desire for glory from ego/narcissistic personality.
John Piper's teaching on this did a lot of damage to me.

fhansen · Jun 18, 2025

Jamdoc said:
the thing is though, through some teachings/teachers, the cross was even done for a self serving purpose: "For His glory" IE, He did it all so that you're indebted to sing His praises forever. It gives God an ego, that He desires be stroked.

Hard chain of thoughts to break out of because there is biblical support that everything is for His glory, and I can't separate a desire for glory from ego/narcissistic personality.
John Piper's teaching on this did a lot of damage to me.

And I think we need to get back to Jesus's teaching -and demonstration. Because the crucifixion was God on the cross in the ultimate act of humility. And when we read the beatitudes or we read 1 Co 13 we have to realize that we're reading, amazingly, about the attributes of God.

We love and glorify Him because we've come to recognize and value His love, a love so wide and vast and deep it's barely fathomable but by grace we can begin to fathom it. It's His sheer, infinite goodness that makes us turn to Him and being turned to Him is the ultimate good for ourselves. We all desire good, that's how we're designed and that's only normal but humans were made for the perfect Good and that will be found only in God. Anyway, everything God does is motivated by love. Pride is a human trait, a fallen human trait and not at all of God; love and pride are actually opposed to each other. Sounds like Mr Piper didn't know Him so well.

Clare73 · Jun 18, 2025

jamiec said:
IMHO, God did not choose Israel. Any more than God chose the UK, the USA, Poland, China, Germany, or any other country. I think the talk in the OT about Israel being chosen, is national propagandist mythology, no different from any other; and that some or all of it is a reaction to the trauma of the Babylonian victory over Judah in 586 BC. After that victory, the Jews, or what was left of them, had to decide what to do with themselves - and part of the OT is taken up with answering that question.
Israel then was not special - nor is it special now. There is no reason to believe in any covenant with Abraham - that is just part of Israel/Judah’s foundation-myth, concocted long after the alleged events, had they occurred, would have taken place. Abraham, Isaac & Jacob are, ISTM, no less mythical than Aeneas, his son Iulus AKA Ascanius, and their descendants Romulus & Remus.

So Israel should be treated just like any other country, because that is what it is. And the idea of Israel having a right to the land based on a covenant with God, needs to be forgotten, or treated as a fantasy; because to rely on ancient Jewish mythology as a guide to modern politics, is as crazy as it would be to use the Aeneid as a guide to modern Italian or Roman politics.
And in case anyone is wondering, I see nothing unChristian in saying that much of the OT is Jewish mythology.

Jesus, the divine Son of God, does not share your view of the OT.

Jesus believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Jn 10:35, Lk 11:28, 5:1),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).

Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).

Belief in the authority and truth of the OT as the word of God was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

jamiec said:
As for the question, I have three of my own:
1. Why does God choose anyone ?

For no reason other than his sovereign will to do so to accomplish his purpose.

jamiec said:
and 2. Does God choose anyone or any nation ?

He chooses both for his own purposes.

jamiec said:
or, 3. Is the idea of being chosen by God simply a theological interpretation of events as being an act of Divine choosing ?

Not when the word of God uses the words "choose," "chose" and "chosen."

Jamdoc · Jun 18, 2025

Clare73 said:
Jesus, the divine Son of God, does not share your view of the OT.

Jesus believed the OT was the "word of God" in every detail (Jn 10:35, Lk 11:28, 5:1),
that it was the truth of God vested with the authority of God and backed by the power of God (Mt 5:17-19).
He treated arguments from Scripture as having clinching force. When he said, "It is written," that was final. There was no appeal against Scripture, for "the scripture cannot be broken." (Mt 4:5, Mt 4:7, Mt 4:10, Jn 10:35). God's word holds good forever.
He constantly scolded the Jews for their ignorance and neglect of Scripture: "Are you not in error because you do not know the Scriptures?". . ."Have you not read. . .?". . ."Go and learn what this means. . ." (Mk 12:24, Mt 12:3, Mt 12:5, Mt 19:4, Mt 21:16, Mt 21:42,
Mt 9:13).

Likewise, Jesus himself submitted to the OT as the word of God:
he lived a life of obedience to Scripture (Lk 4:17-21, Mt 8:16-17, Mt 11:2-5),
and then he died in obedience to Scripture (Lk 18:31, Mk 8:31, Mk 9:31, Mk 10:33-34, Mt 26:24, Lk 22:37, Mt 26:53-56),
when he arose, he explained who he was by the Scriptures (Lk 24:44-47, Lk 24:27),
he presented himself to the Jews as the fulfiller of Scripture (Jn 5:39-40, Jn 5:46-47).

Belief in the authority and truth of the OT as the word of God was the foundation of Jesus' whole ministry.

For no reason other than his sovereign will to do so to accomplish his purpose.

He chooses both for his own purposes.

Not when the word of God uses the words "choose," "chose" and "chosen."

Absolutely.. I'm a bit gobstopped at a Christian treating the bible as "Jewish mythology"

Jesus never just "source: trust me bro, I have the Holy Spirit". He defended every theological position and doctrine He taught through scripture, Old Testament scripture. With the one exception being Matthew 22:30 where there's nothing in canon scripture about marriage not existing after the resurrection unless you consider Enoch scripture. Which I have puzzled over for some time because the rationale Jesus gives is the exact same rationale that God gives the angels for why they don't have wives in Enoch, and it is NOWHERE in what we consider canon.
and I've never accepted Jesus just making up doctrine out of the ether, nor Paul, too many people do.
They always sourced the doctrine they taught based on what had already been revealed in scripture. They expanded on it, explained it, interpreted it in ways that blew people's minds.. but everything was in the Old Testament.

If the Old Testament is just "Jewish Mythology" then we have absolutely nothing. No savior, no forgiveness, no eternal life, and we just die in our sins.
The Old Testament is the foundation, it must be true or our entire faith falls like a house of cards.

Jamdoc · Jun 18, 2025

So some meditating on this:

Ephesians 5:

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

The same comparison of the relationship between God and His people Israel is the basis of the book of Hosea as well (Just remember Romans 11, the gentiles are grafted into Israel, that's how we're "married" to Christ, the Betrothal was to Israel, and Gentiles have been grafted into that).

So how is this relationship spousal? I've generally only been able to see the relationship between Master and slave (or servant if that word makes you squeamish but they use the term "bondservant" and a servant in bondage.. is a slave), and Father and son in the relationship between God and His people. I've never been married, so I can only speculate and analyze from an outside point of view.

I can imagine that ideally each spouse values the other above themselves, and focuses on them. IE, the husband's focus is on the wife, the wife's focus is on the husband, and through their joint efforts the needs of both are taken care of with neither being selfish. In the case of the comparison of God and the Church/Israel to a marriage, Jesus died for His bride, and the bride devotes her (corporate) life to Jesus. There can be harmony in that. Where there is dissonance .. and the warped perspective that plagues me, is that the relationship can be more like, the Bride is devoted to Jesus, and Jesus is devoted to Himself and His own glory. So everything on Jesus and the Bride's needs are kinda unimportant in the relationship. Does that kind of marriage work?
My gut feel is no, but I can obviously be wrong, I have no experience.

Now back to the Israel responds to God with bargaining and trying to change His mind idea, and how that ties into marriage.

I guess the ideal in the past was that the wife was dutiful and obeyed her husband, but in reality, married couples differ on opinions, spouses argue, spouses attempt to change the mind of the other when there's disagreement. So that actually fits in. Israel, as the bride, vowed to be obedient, but then argued and tried to bargain, because they had a different opinion. It is of course, it seems to stem from valuing self over valuing the spouse. But it became a dysfunctional "marriage" and eventually Israel "played the harlot" as God put it in Jeremiah and Ezekiel, "whoring after" other gods, which the book of Hosea displays in a carnal example we can see.

But then there's the example of Esther. Esther did seek supplication before her husband the king, and as a result, saved her people.

and so the bride is not expected to just duck her head and accept her hand without a peep, but is expected to submit supplications to God. Which is backed up in the New Testament, in James 1, Philippians 4, etc. Asking God to change His mind (Esther's supplication was made after the king had already signed an order) is then seemingly not always bad.

DragonFox91 · Jun 19, 2025

Jamdoc said:
So, first a disclaimer. I do love Israel, out of them came our savior, and because God supports them, I do too.

But God did not choose Israel because they're such wonderful obedient people. In fact, history has shown quite the opposite. Throughout the Old Testament there's the pattern of Israel doubting God, striving against God (in fact, Israel's very name means "one who strives against God" because Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis). God repeatedly chastised them and even cursed them, put them in captivity, released them, they killed His Son, He scattered them, then gathered them back. He repeatedly refers to them as a stiff necked people (Exodus 32-34, Deuteronomy 9, etc), stubborn and rebellious. Yes, Abraham was justified by having faith in God in the first place and that faith was counted for righteousness, and was obedient even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his miraculously born son Isaac.

But that one example, followed by a deliberately stiffnecked, willful, and rebellious people.

Is it possible that God did not choose them because they're such wonderful people but because they represent what can be the worst of us as people, to magnify His grace by showing He can do something wonderful with the worst rebels?

I got on this line of thinking after hearing a Jewish man talk about eschatology in a podcast. Where, if a prophecy from God is good... then it's for sure going to happen, but if it's bad, well then, that's something they have to bargain with God about. I was kinda gobstopped. This idea that God pronounces judgement and a Jew's response is.. strive against God, bargain with Him, try to change His mind.

To me that just seems nonsensical, it's the Lord right? We can't bargain with the Lord and change His mind!

But then he went on to explain. Noah, represents the Gentiles, God said there's judgement, build an ark, and Noah built the ark and did what the Lord said, everyone but 8 people perished. God said He would destroy Sodom.... and Abraham bargained with God. There it was from the beginning of the Hebrews, Abraham striving against God, trying to change God's mind... God actually kinda acquiesced to it, but never found the 10 righteous people in Sodom to prevent its destruction.

Peter also is an example of this. When Jesus explains He'll be killed in Matthew 16, Peter tries to rebuke Jesus. This is just after Peter had confessed the Jesus is the Son of God! So Peter... knowingly tried to rebuke and bargain with God! Peter was not only given grace for that, but even had leadership among the apostles!

It's really rather astounding that God has responded to people trying to bargain with Him with just.. more grace, and even favor.

Of course then there's Jonah who was definitely worse for wear trying to defy God.. but .. Jonah's still a prophet, still cited by Jesus as such.

so what do you think? Why did God choose stiffnecked, rebellious people who try to rebuke Him and bargain with Him?

He picked them b/c they were a little people. He could've picked the biggest, richest, most powerful country, but he picked a people no one else would've b/c he has a special heart for the small. There's a verse where he says this. The People of this Age wouldn't have picked them, they would've picked Egypt or Babylon

The beginning of Romans says all the nations have gone astray. And the Jews & Gentiles aren't any different in their sin.

But yeah, he picks people who are rebellious but ultimately b/c there is no one else to pick. & this is to show it is him working & not man

Hawkins · Jun 20, 2025

It is result oriented. Israel is the only ethnicity remained loyal to its culture and religion in a 2000 years of exile without its own homeland.

trophy33 · Jun 20, 2025

Hawkins said:
It is result oriented. Israel is the only ethnicity remained loyal to its culture and religion in a 2000 years of exile without its own homeland.

What do you mean by that?

And Israel is not ethnicity.

Hawkins · Jun 20, 2025

trophy33 said:
What do you mean by that?

And Israel is not ethnicity.

The Jews are if you want to argue sementically and equivocally.

trophy33 · Jun 20, 2025

Hawkins said:
The Jews are if you want to argue sementically and equivocally.

Jews today do not have the same culture or religion as 2,000 years ago. Many of them do not even believe in God. Can you find today's Pharisees, Saducees or Essenes, for example?

If we wanted an example of ethnicity that basically did not change their culture or religion for 2,000 years, then they would be the Khmer ethnic people in southern Vietnam. If we want some country, then it would probably be India.

St. Helens · Jun 20, 2025

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Guojing · Jun 21, 2025

Israel came from Jacob.

Jacob pleased God and God promised to make his descendants the dust of the earth (Genesis 28:12-14)

That is why God chose Israel.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 22, 2025

Jamdoc said:
So, first a disclaimer. I do love Israel, out of them came our savior, and because God supports them, I do too.

But God did not choose Israel because they're such wonderful obedient people. In fact, history has shown quite the opposite. Throughout the Old Testament there's the pattern of Israel doubting God, striving against God (in fact, Israel's very name means "one who strives against God" because Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis). God repeatedly chastised them and even cursed them, put them in captivity, released them, they killed His Son, He scattered them, then gathered them back. He repeatedly refers to them as a stiff necked people (Exodus 32-34, Deuteronomy 9, etc), stubborn and rebellious. Yes, Abraham was justified by having faith in God in the first place and that faith was counted for righteousness, and was obedient even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his miraculously born son Isaac.

But that one example, followed by a deliberately stiffnecked, willful, and rebellious people.

Is it possible that God did not choose them because they're such wonderful people but because they represent what can be the worst of us as people, to magnify His grace by showing He can do something wonderful with the worst rebels?

I got on this line of thinking after hearing a Jewish man talk about eschatology in a podcast. Where, if a prophecy from God is good... then it's for sure going to happen, but if it's bad, well then, that's something they have to bargain with God about. I was kinda gobstopped. This idea that God pronounces judgement and a Jew's response is.. strive against God, bargain with Him, try to change His mind.

To me that just seems nonsensical, it's the Lord right? We can't bargain with the Lord and change His mind!

But then he went on to explain. Noah, represents the Gentiles, God said there's judgement, build an ark, and Noah built the ark and did what the Lord said, everyone but 8 people perished. God said He would destroy Sodom.... and Abraham bargained with God. There it was from the beginning of the Hebrews, Abraham striving against God, trying to change God's mind... God actually kinda acquiesced to it, but never found the 10 righteous people in Sodom to prevent its destruction.

Peter also is an example of this. When Jesus explains He'll be killed in Matthew 16, Peter tries to rebuke Jesus. This is just after Peter had confessed the Jesus is the Son of God! So Peter... knowingly tried to rebuke and bargain with God! Peter was not only given grace for that, but even had leadership among the apostles!

It's really rather astounding that God has responded to people trying to bargain with Him with just.. more grace, and even favor.

Of course then there's Jonah who was definitely worse for wear trying to defy God.. but .. Jonah's still a prophet, still cited by Jesus as such.

so what do you think? Why did God choose stiffnecked, rebellious people who try to rebuke Him and bargain with Him?

God choose Abraham to be the Father of the Jews/Israel because he had the right heart condition. He came after the flood when God destroyed everyone except 8 people, because the thoughts of their hearts were evil continually Genesis 6:5 And than shortly after the flood, people continued in that same pattern as seen with the tower of Babel- I think people under estimate the power of the devil.

Sin separates man from God (His version of sin)
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Abraham had the right heart condition to share the oracles of God through his lineage

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Unfortunately Israel lost those oracles due to their disobedience

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

God still has a remnant who is faithful

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Its no more literal Israel Rom 9:6 but those who are grafted in God's Covenant Promise made to Abraham through faith Gal 3:26-29

Jamdoc · Jun 22, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
God choose Abraham to be the Father of the Jews/Israel because he had the right heart condition. He came after the flood when God destroyed everyone except 8 people, because the thoughts of their hearts were evil continually Genesis 6:5 And than shortly after the flood, people continued in that same pattern as seen with the tower of Babel- I think people under estimate the power of the devil.

Sin separates man from God (His version of sin)
Isa 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Abraham had the right heart condition to share the oracles of God through his lineage

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

Unfortunately Israel lost those oracles due to their disobedience

Act 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

God still has a remnant who is faithful

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman (church), and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Its no more literal Israel Rom 9:6 but those who are grafted in God's Covenant Promise made to Abraham through faith Gal 3:26-29

I mean Abraham was a documented sinner too, telling people his wife was his sister.

SabbathBlessings · Jun 22, 2025

Jamdoc said:
I mean Abraham was a documented sinner too, telling people his wife was his sister.

Yes, we have all sinned and fall short, what maters is when we sin, do we continue in that path or turn from it like Abraham. Abraham never rebelled against God’s commandments, he may have fell short, but He was a man of great faith, When we refuse to embrace God’s law Rom 8:7-8, the Holy Spirit has nothing to work with, He calls on us, but do we listen Heb 3:7-8. You asked why God choose Israel and it was because of Abraham’s great faith. Heb 11:8-12

Aseyesee · Jun 26, 2025

Jamdoc said:
So, first a disclaimer. I do love Israel, out of them came our savior, and because God supports them, I do too.

But God did not choose Israel because they're such wonderful obedient people. In fact, history has shown quite the opposite. Throughout the Old Testament there's the pattern of Israel doubting God, striving against God (in fact, Israel's very name means "one who strives against God" because Jacob wrestled with God in Genesis). God repeatedly chastised them and even cursed them, put them in captivity, released them, they killed His Son, He scattered them, then gathered them back. He repeatedly refers to them as a stiff necked people (Exodus 32-34, Deuteronomy 9, etc), stubborn and rebellious. Yes, Abraham was justified by having faith in God in the first place and that faith was counted for righteousness, and was obedient even to the point of being willing to sacrifice his miraculously born son Isaac.

But that one example, followed by a deliberately stiffnecked, willful, and rebellious people.

Is it possible that God did not choose them because they're such wonderful people but because they represent what can be the worst of us as people, to magnify His grace by showing He can do something wonderful with the worst rebels?

I got on this line of thinking after hearing a Jewish man talk about eschatology in a podcast. Where, if a prophecy from God is good... then it's for sure going to happen, but if it's bad, well then, that's something they have to bargain with God about. I was kinda gobstopped. This idea that God pronounces judgement and a Jew's response is.. strive against God, bargain with Him, try to change His mind.

To me that just seems nonsensical, it's the Lord right? We can't bargain with the Lord and change His mind!

But then he went on to explain. Noah, represents the Gentiles, God said there's judgement, build an ark, and Noah built the ark and did what the Lord said, everyone but 8 people perished. God said He would destroy Sodom.... and Abraham bargained with God. There it was from the beginning of the Hebrews, Abraham striving against God, trying to change God's mind... God actually kinda acquiesced to it, but never found the 10 righteous people in Sodom to prevent its destruction.

Peter also is an example of this. When Jesus explains He'll be killed in Matthew 16, Peter tries to rebuke Jesus. This is just after Peter had confessed the Jesus is the Son of God! So Peter... knowingly tried to rebuke and bargain with God! Peter was not only given grace for that, but even had leadership among the apostles!

It's really rather astounding that God has responded to people trying to bargain with Him with just.. more grace, and even favor.

Of course then there's Jonah who was definitely worse for wear trying to defy God.. but .. Jonah's still a prophet, still cited by Jesus as such.

so what do you think? Why did God choose stiffnecked, rebellious people who try to rebuke Him and bargain with Him?

Why did Jesus choose a devil ...

Jamdoc · Jun 26, 2025

Aseyesee said:
Why did Jesus choose a devil ...

Ultimately to fulfill prophecy. He had to be betrayed, He had to be killed in a specific way, etc.

I guess a question I have is why that specific method and time? There were other times when the Jews wanted to kill Jesus and He escaped, because it was not prophecy that Messiah would die by being stoned or pushed off a cliff, it was prophecied that He'd be pierced and hung up in such a way that it dislocated His joints.
But if makes me wonder why did God choose that method? Why would stoning be invalid? Why would being pushed off a cliff be invalid? Why wouldn't He be beheaded like John the Baptist?

Aseyesee · Jun 27, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Ultimately to fulfill prophecy. He had to be betrayed, He had to be killed in a specific way, etc.

I guess a question I have is why that specific method and time? There were other times when the Jews wanted to kill Jesus and He escaped, because it was not prophecy that Messiah would die by being stoned or pushed off a cliff, it was prophecied that He'd be pierced and hung up in such a way that it dislocated His joints.
But if makes me wonder why did God choose that method? Why would stoning be invalid? Why would being pushed off a cliff be invalid? Why wouldn't He be beheaded like John the Baptist?

I believe it has to do with (the language of God) what a tree is in symbolism (just as it is the case with the various feasts, or why Abram is called out into a land he is shown, and then wanders around in it looking for a city, or why Cain and Abel bring God an offering he never asked for, and why Judas hung himself on a tree, and why Adam (and the woman) covered themselves with the leaves of a (fig) tree, etc. etc. etc.) that relates to our soul and the process of a Son being revealed in us as us.

BelieveItOarKnot · Jun 29, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Ultimately to fulfill prophecy. He had to be betrayed, He had to be killed in a specific way, etc.

I guess a question I have is why that specific method and time? There were other times when the Jews wanted to kill Jesus and He escaped, because it was not prophecy that Messiah would die by being stoned or pushed off a cliff, it was prophecied that He'd be pierced and hung up in such a way that it dislocated His joints.
But if makes me wonder why did God choose that method? Why would stoning be invalid? Why would being pushed off a cliff be invalid? Why wouldn't He be beheaded like John the Baptist?

The position that Judas was a devil isn't a solid position

All of Israel are taught to be God's children inclusive of Judas and even all the religious leaders.

The most obvious conclusion is Mark 4:15 happened to them all, and still does

I'd even say John had a misread. When Jesus said one of you is a devil it would apply to all of them, not just Judas

And Judas or people are not devils

Why did God choose Israel?

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