What a time for witnessing!

RandyPNW · Jun 3, 2025

fli said:
I guess that I do not know anything about how to multi quote. I tried to quote RandyPNW and Douggg.

Maybe reply to one person, and before you send it select another person and reply to him/her. Then send them both--when you send the last one you'll send both of them.

Douggg said:
Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

"Come up hither" I think Jesus saying that phrase with a loud voice in such a way that is what is meant by the trump of God in the 1Thessalonians4:16 resurrection/rapture verse. Jesus's shout in that verse is described as the voice of the archangel and the trump of God.

Yes, but the context is very different. What a huge jump in interpreting this passage from John being caught up to heaven to saying it represent the Rapture of the Church!

This is purely calling upon the authority of John Darby or other Pretribbers who have illegitimately used that argument and have, over time, achieved a following.

fli · Jun 4, 2025

RandyPNW said:
Maybe reply to one person, and before you send it select another person and reply to him/her. Then send them both--when you send the last one you'll send both of them.

Yes, but the context is very different. What a huge jump in interpreting this passage from John being caught up to heaven to saying it represent the Rapture of the Church!

This is purely calling upon the authority of John Darby or other Pretribbers who have illegitimately used that argument and have, over time, achieved a following.

Chapter 11 of the book of revelation has the characters and conditions needed for the rapture named in the parable of the tares and in Matthew 24: 29-31. It is after the harvesting of the tares, Sixth trumpet, and Matt 24:23-28. It has the OT and NT Saints being called and the trumpet.

It has the condition of 1 Corinthians 15: 52 the last trumpet, The conditions of 1Thessalonians 4: 16 the voice of Jesus and the trumpet. It has the character of 2Thessalonians 2: 8 the lawless one and the place, Jerusalem and the temple.

Plus it has the characters in Romans 11: 25-27 All Israel OT & NT saints, the unbelieving Israelis ready to have the blinders removed and Jacob ready to have their ungodliness removed.

RandyPNW · Jun 4, 2025

fli said:
Chapter 11 of the book of revelation has the characters and conditions needed for the rapture named in the parable of the tares and in Matthew 24: 29-31. It is after the harvesting of the tares, Sixth trumpet, and Matt 24:23-28. It has the OT and NT Saints being called and the trumpet.

It has the condition of 1 Corinthians 15: 52 the last trumpet, The conditions of 1Thessalonians 4: 16 the voice of Jesus and the trumpet. It has the character of 2Thessalonians 2: 8 the lawless one and the place, Jerusalem and the temple.

Plus it has the characters in Romans 11: 25-27 All Israel OT & NT saints, the unbelieving Israelis ready to have the blinders removed and Jacob ready to have their ungodliness removed.

The entire book of Revelation has all of these things, including all of the symbols of the last days. What does that have to do with anything?

The entire book of Revelation is laced with prophetic imagery simply because the book is, as a whole, looking forward to its culminating event--the Return of Christ. The order and use of the symbols should simply be seen as it is, as paraphernalia adorning all of the events to show the direction they are looking to.

I was simply arguing that a repetitive comparison between John's "rapture" to heaven with the "Rapture" of the Church is an illicit heumaneutical tool. Comparing one Scripture passage with another has limited benefit.

If you compare dissimilar passages and tie them together on flimsy commonalities, you will not interpret things properly. The cults utilize "symbolic interpretations" to prove anything they want to insert into the symbols.

You *cannot* prove the Rapture of the Church from John being "caught up" to heaven to see visions, anymore than Paul's being caught up to the 3rd heaven means the Rapture of the Church will take place in Paul's time.

fli · Jun 4, 2025

RandyPNW said:
The entire book of Revelation has all of these things, including all of the symbols of the last days. What does that have to do with anything?

The entire book of Revelation is laced with prophetic imagery simply because the book is, as a whole, looking forward to its culminating event--the Return of Christ. The order and use of the symbols should simply be seen as it is, as paraphernalia adorning all of the events to show the direction they are looking to.

I was simply arguing that a repetitive comparison between John's "rapture" to heaven with the "Rapture" of the Church is an illicit heumaneutical tool. Comparing one Scripture passage with another has limited benefit.

If you compare dissimilar passages and tie them together on flimsy commonalities, you will not interpret things properly. The cults utilize "symbolic interpretations" to prove anything they want to insert into the symbols.

You *cannot* prove the Rapture of the Church from John being "caught up" to heaven to see visions, anymore than Paul's being caught up to the 3rd heaven means the Rapture of the Church will take place in Paul's time.

There could have been only one meeting between the two main witnesses and the anti-christ. He would not have let such an opportunity pass without killing them. To have them meet in Jerusalem would certainly have been planned by God. To have them, and OT an NT saints, being called to heaven.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." NKJV

Jesus is the only deliever that can come out of Zion and take away ungodliness from anyone.

RandyPNW · Jun 4, 2025

fli said:
There could have been only one meeting between the two main witnesses and the anti-christ. He would not have let such an opportunity pass without killing them. To have them meet in Jerusalem would certainly have been planned by God. To have them, and OT an NT saints, being called to heaven.

Romans 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." NKJV

Jesus is the only deliever that can come out of Zion and take away ungodliness from anyone.

What exactly is it you're arguing for here? As opposed to anything I've said, what are you counter-arguing?

fli · Jun 5, 2025

There is no symbolism in the 2 witness being killed. There is no symbolism in God calling the 2 witnesses to"come up here." There is no symbolism that the God of the ones being called is the "God of the earth", and Jesus has taken controll of the kingdoms of the world. There is no symbolism in the citizens of Jerusalem left alive and on the earth giving praise to the God of heaven. There is symbolism in the Olive trees and lampstands but that has been explained elsewhere. There is no symbolism in all Israel being saved and Jacob having his ungodliness removed.

Search

Search

What a time for witnessing!

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member

More options

fli

Well-Known Member

More options

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member

More options

fli

Well-Known Member

More options

RandyPNW

Well-Known Member

More options

fli

Well-Known Member

More options

Similar threads