What a time for witnessing!

fli said:

The first item of note in Daniels 70 weeks was that God started His count from the end of the seventy weeks back. This will help to determine the following scripture.

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. NKJV

From the time the daily sacrifice and the desolation is set up will be 1290 days. From the start of the seven weeks to the abomination of desolation is 1230 days or 30 days prior to the mid point. Blessed is the Christian who is waiting for Jesus to come who is still around 1185 days after the start of the tribulation.

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You have some things mixed up.

1335 days from when the abomination of desolation is set up, Jesus will return.

So since Jesus returns at the end of the 7 years, on day 2520, we subtract 1335 from 2520 to come up with day 1185 that the abomination of desolation will be setup.

Then we count forward from day 1185, 1290 days days to get day 2475. What happens on day 2475 ? The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, the sixth seal event of Revelation 6.

The reaction of the kings of the earth is that they will gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus and His armies. They prepare for 45 days.

fli said:

70 weeks were determined for Daniels people. From the command to restore Jerusalem to the Messiah there are 7 weeks and 62 weeks or a total of 69 weeks of years. That is 483 years.

Two items to make note of first: God started His count from the end of time to the then present time.

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Let me just stop you right here. Some have this view--I do not. The 70 Weeks ended with the 6 things associated with Messiah being cut off, the end of sacrifices and offerings, and a final desolation of Jerusalem and the Temple. That is in the past. That is *not* the "end of time!"

fli said:

The second item to note: God told Daniel that He was dealing with his, Daniel's, people. Just who are Daniel's people? As we know Daniel is a member of both natural and true Israel.

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I do not make these distinctions. Israel is Israel. Some are illegitimate children in the spiritual sense because God promised Abraham "children of faith." But even illegitimate children are still part of Israel proper.

fli said:

The end times are known in the OT as the time of Jacobs trouble.

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Jesus identified the "end times" as beginning in his own era, with his death, with the end of Temple worship, and with the end of the Jewish People possessing the land of Israel. In the Olivet Discourse Jesus called it the "Great Tribulation," or the "Great Distress."

fli said:

Jacob is Israel prior to his receiving the promises.

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Jacob received promises before his birth, well before God assigned him the name "Israel," or "Soldier of God."

fli said:

Therefore, the last week of years deals with both true Israel and Jacob, natural Israel, whom God has blinded.

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Natural Israel is not identified as "Jacob, as opposed to Israel" in the Bible.

fli said:

Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." NKJV

True Israel at the time of the end times are those in Jesus. Included in Jesus are the fulness of the Gentiles scattered throughout the world. God is dealing with those that He blinded, who are still considered Jacob. So just who is God sending out to gather Jacob at the end times?

Ezekiel 37:19 say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God: "Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand."' 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes. NKJV

The stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim and he will be united to the stick of Judah. Judah is the scattered tribes of Judah after the temple was destroyed by the Romans 60 years after Jesus was crucified. Ephraim is the descendants of the lost tribes scattered after the northern kingdom was scattered. They are the fulness of the gentiles.

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Being that the 2 kingdoms were defeated in ancient times, they have nothing to do with future prophecy now. The 2 kingdoms did become a single nation in the time of the Persian Restoration. But the Herodian kings were a poor replacement for the lost Kingdom of David. Jesus became the rightful heir to the throne of David, but refused to establish his Kingdom by force.

fli said:

Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed: NKJV

The stick of Joseph is in the hand of Ephraim. Ephraim, known as the fulness of the gentiles, will join the two sticks together, They are the 144,000 sealed to witness. The people of Daniel are all contained in the stick of Ephraim and the stick of Judah. God will deal with both in the last week of years. He will perfect true Israel and unite it with those of Judah who will have the blinders removed during the last week of years.

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Again, the stick of Joseph prophecy is in the past. The future salvation of national Israel will take place when Christ returns, and destroys the bad Jews and enlightens the blind in Israel who are receptive to him.

fli said:

The Holy city, Jerusalem, is back in the nation of Israel since 1967, Israel's seven day war.

The first item of note in Daniels 70 weeks was that God started His count from the end of the seventy weeks back. This will help to determine the following scripture.

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days. NKJV

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This prophecy had to do with Antiochus 4's reign, not to be confused with the earlier 3.5 years (12.7). These are two distinct prophecies, both future from Daniel's point of view. The Antiochus prophecy was nearer in time, and of great importance in Israel's national survival. The 3.5 years of Antichrist was detailed earlier in the book, in ch. 7, and is roughly the same length of time, but a totally different prophecy. God was summing up the book for Daniel in ch. 12 by adding a few details to the most important prophecies at that point in time.

Sorry, but we disagree on a number of points. Hopefully we agree on the most important doctrines?

fli said:

The blessing in Revelation comes to those who die in the Lord from immediately preceded the reaping of the harvest of the earth to the rapture. And just who does God harvest first?

Matthew 13:27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'" NKJV

At the time of the harvest God gathers the tares first and burns them.

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Easyyyyy there. Not so fast. lol

Refer to the master outline, as the parable gives a general analogy for understanding principles.

Revelation 14:14-19

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.


18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.



Rapture is first, Son of Man, with a crown, on a cloud. Angel is second.

No one knows the day nor the hour, is a surprise to all, must be first.

Unless I'm missing something in the details. No exhaustive study on it yet, God's Word has so much to read.

fli said:

Paul spoke of the mystery of the fullness of the gentiles in Romans 11.

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Well yes, that's a good point. What is the "mystery" in this, since God had clearly promised Abraham an inheritance among the Gentiles/nations?

I think the mystery has to do with the fact God had erected a wall between Israel and the nations. Israel had a covenant exclusive to themselves, and the pagans, under their Law, would be disqualified from any meaningful relationship with God.

The fact that era of exclusivity came to an end seemed like a "mystery" to Paul. How would pagans be pardoned when they had no covenant? The mystery is in Christ's proclamation of his Gospel to the Gentiles, apart from the Law of Moses which would've excluded them.

fli said:

The term “son of man” was used for both Ezekiel and Jesus. It was a prophecy that the Messiah would unite the lost northern tribes with Judah. The northern tribes were known by various names one of which was Ephraim, Joseph's second son. When Jacob blessed both Joseph's sons in Genesis 48: 17-19 he stated that Ephraim would be greater than Manasseh and would become the fullness of the Gentiles.

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I was with you all the way up until you said Ephraise would "become the fulness of the Gentiles." What do you mean by this? Ephraim did not become Gentile peoples at all! And Ephraim is no longer a tribe in Israel.

fli said:

In Romans 11: 25-27 that blindness in part has happened until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in then all Israel will be saved. So Jesus will not return to gather His church until the last fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Therefore, everyone who hopes for Jesus' quick return should be hoping that the last fullness of the Gentiles comes soon because all believers in the NT are a part of all Israel.

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Yep.

fli said:

Yes, this is not a belief that will determine salvation. But since I believe that the Church will go through half of the 7 years it will help us understand what will happen and what we have to look forward to. The more we know the more our faith should increase.

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Thanks for sharing...

Zceptre said:

Easyyyyy there. Not so fast. lol

Refer to the master outline, as the parable gives a general analogy for understanding principles.

Revelation 14:14-19

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15And I love this passaanother angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.


18And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.



Rapture is first, Son of Man, with a crown, on a cloud. Angel is second.

No one knows the day nor the hour, is a surprise to all, must be first.

Unless I'm missing something in the details. No exhaustive study on it yet, God's Word has so much to read.

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I believe you will run into problems if you read the book of Revelation as if it is depicting a strict chronological sequence. One vision after another does not always indicate a step forward in time. Sometimes visions have their own chronological sequence and is unrelated, chronologically, to the next vision.

Keep in mind that these are visions "on the Lord's day," ie visions that transcend a normal day's sequence. They are full of symbolism enacting events as if they are happening in symbolic fashion, but presenting events that have yet to take place in a more literal fashion.

With respect to the visions of ch. 14, I believe they are each reflecting upon the same general time frame, but not a sequence. At the coming of the Son of Man at the end of the age, the angels will do their work. There will be Armageddon, and there will be Salvation.

The series of visions in ch. 14 begin with a prolepsis, which is a fast forward look into the future, to show the end picture, with Christ already having come to the Mt. of Olives, having already fulfilled his promise to save the elect of Israel.

A chronological sequence of visions concerning the present age does *not* begin with a picture of it all being finished at the end of the age! That is called a prolepsis. Here Salvation is depicted as having already taken place, even though the series of visions are warning people today before that event takes place...

Rev 14.1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders.

This is followed by a return to the current age, before Armageddon actually takes place. It is depicted by the appearance of a 1st angel, who is bringing us up to the point just before Salvation, and Judgment, have come.

Rev 14.7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.

Then a 2nd angel appears and again flashes ahead to a future time when judgment has already taken place...

Rev 14.8 A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”

This shows Babylon as already fallen, which I assume happens before the Son of Man sets down on the Mt. of Olives with the 144,000. This is followed by a 3rd angel who once again returns to the present age, when people are still deciding whether to join the Antichrist or not....

Rev 14.9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath."

By now you should've completely abandoned any hope of setting forth a strict chronological sequence between these visions! Once again we turn to a different time frame, which sort of mixes the time frames together.

The angels appear, not to designate a next stage in time, but only to symbolically present the visions to John, who is to understand that the actual history of these events will involve angelic judgments...

Rev 14.14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

So here we have another vision of the future, when Christ has come, or coming on a white cloud And it from that vantage point looks back to see the decisions that have to be made in the present age, before that takes place and all is fulfilled.

In other words, here Christ is depicted as having already been in the process of coming, being on a white cloud. But this is symbolic of the actual future event given to warn people of the judgments that accompany it, which in our time have yet to come.

The book of Revelatioin contains visions that are symbolic events of things yet to come and sometimes portraying them as if they have already come. Try to turn off your rational mind that sees everything in a strict chronological way. This is apocalyptic language.

fli said:

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV

I do not accept the pre-trib rapture theory. Paul stated that the living would not precede those who have died. Revelation 11 contains the rapture of two olive trees. God had the olive tree under law and the hybrid olive tree under grace. That describe all the OT saints as well as the NT saints. Revelation 11 meets all the above conditions for the rapture.

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The rapture event includes a resurrection of the dead in Christ. resurrection/rapture.

In Matthew 24:31, there is no resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Matthew 24:31 is referring to the final gathering of the Jews from around the world to the land of Israel. It is a promise that God made in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

"from one end of heaven to the other" in verse 31 is a figure of speech to mean from the most distant lands. That figure of speech is also used in Deuteronomy 30:4.

fli said:

It is my understanding the pre-trib people use the call to John at the beginning of chapter 4 as the rapture. If that is true there is no trumpet.

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Revelation 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

"Come up hither" I think Jesus saying that phrase with a loud voice in such a way that is what is meant by the trump of God in the 1Thessalonians4:16 resurrection/rapture verse. Jesus's shout in that verse is described as the voice of the archangel and the trump of God.

Do you recall in John 11:43 that Jesus cried with a loud commanding voice "Lazarus, come forth" when Jesus brought Lazarus back to life from the grave ?

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.


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I am not pre-trib (pre-70th week) exclusively. But I do think that the resurrection/rapture could happen pre-trib (pre-70th week). My view is that the resurrection/rapture must happen before the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation act described in 2Thessalonians2:4 which will trigger the beginning of the day of the Lord.

fli said:

Genesis 5:21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him. NKJV

Job 19:25 For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, 27 Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me! NKJV

Israel did not have exclusive information to salvation. Neither of the above had the law or other information about God except the creation.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, NKJV

I heard a pastor, Dr Mack Evans, do a series on the Zodiac. Each sign of the zodiac had, what he called 2 decants, which told the story of God's plan of salvation. As Paul stated even without the bible man is without excuse.

Matthew 13:44 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and hid; and for joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. NKJV

The above parable explains Jesus' search for the lost tribes, the fullness of the gentiles.

God found Israel in a field, the world. He later hid His treasure by scattering the nation all around the field. Then Jesus came and buys the field, the world, and is now looking for His hidden treasure.

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I agree that the nations have always had access to God via their conscience. They haven't been separated from God as individuals--they were separated from God's blessings, however, by not have a covenant between their nation and God.

This apparently seemed like a mystery to Paul...

Rom 16.25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith.

But Paul seems to have viewed, as a mystery, the NT revelation of Christ, as well--perhaps because he was not legally subject to the Law?...

1 Cor 2.6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

So nobody questions that there was no real "mystery" that God has related to all people on earth, from every nation. After all, in the Scriptures we hear a constant reference to proclamations being made, by God, to the nations, as a testimony to them.

I will say this, that in Daniel the dreams he interpreted expressed a "mystery," as well. And they had to do with the nations. I think perhaps that it is mysterious to depict nations hostile to Israel as if they play a major role in history. How can God justify using these great and powerful nations who abuse the smallest of nations, Israel?

In the NT era we've discovered that these very nations, beginning with the Roman Empire, saw entrance of God into the world of the nations, particularly in Roman Civilization. This does seem "mysterious." So there's that.

I'll ltry to deal with this more a little later. Thanks for the exchange.

fli said:

Three of the scriptures, that I cited, stated there was a trumpet, not a voice like a trumpet. The pre-trib rapture is wrong. Also in the Matthew 24 account it states that Jesus gathers the church from the earth and the dead in Christ need their bodies.

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I think you cited...

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

Those have a trumpet sounding.

Firstly, we must remember that we cannot predict the day nor hour of the resurrection/rapture based upon a prophesied event.

So the last trumpet is not the seventh trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15.

So allow me to address 1Corinthians15:51, what is meant by the last trumpet in that verse. Back in the days of the Exodus, before moving to the next camp location, there were trumpeters who would sound a series of trumpets to signal the tribes to get ready to move, pack up, and then assembly themselves in tribal groups. Then the last trumpet was sounded and the camp move forward in unison as it left for the next camp location.

At a time known only to God the Father, He will instruct a quick series of seven trumpets to be sounded in heaven. Time to move the camp of the saints from earth to heaven. At the sounding of the last trumpet sounding, Jesus will leave the third heaven, come down to earth's atmosphere, shout for the dead to be resurrected, and the living changed. Called up into the clouds, together, to meet Jesus in the air and be taken to heaven.

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In Matthew 24:31, Jesus will send His angels to gather the elect. (Different from the resurrection/rapture when Jesus Himself raises the dead and changes the living). A single great trumpet blast will be sounded and Jesus's angels go forward at His instructions to gather the Jews scattered in the nations from all around the world to the land of Israel. Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 will be fulfilled and Matthew 24:31 is the fulfillment.

@fli

I think a better alternative to constantly arguing over the timing of the resurrection/rapture is to hold it as our great hope that we desire that our bodies be redeemed from corruptible to incorruptible. And all of our troubles of this world will be over when it happens.

As time is not static, and the clock always ticking, if the resurrection/rapture has not happened with each passing second, we can still maintain our hope, knowing that the resurrection/rapture could happen any second, only God the Father knows when.

If the 70th week begins and no resurrection/rapture has taken place, in hindsight we can know that the pre-trib view was verified to be incorrect.

Love God, Trust God, Believe God.

Douggg said:

I think you cited...

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. NKJV

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed — 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. NKJV

Those have a trumpet sounding.

Firstly, we must remember that we cannot predict the day nor hour of the resurrection/rapture based upon a prophesied event.

So the last trumpet is not the seventh trumpet sounding in Revelation 11:15.

So allow me to address 1Corinthians15:51, what is meant by the last trumpet in that verse. Back in the days of the Exodus, before moving to the next camp location, there were trumpeters who would sound a series of trumpets to signal the tribes to get ready to move, pack up, and then assembly themselves in tribal groups. Then the last trumpet was sounded and the camp move forward in unison as it left for the next camp location.

At a time known only to God the Father, He will instruct a quick series of seven trumpets to be sounded in heaven. Time to move the camp of the saints from earth to heaven. At the sounding of the last trumpet sounding, Jesus will leave the third heaven, come down to earth's atmosphere, shout for the dead to be resurrected, and the living changed. Called up into the clouds, together, to meet Jesus in the air and be taken to heaven.

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In Matthew 24:31, Jesus will send His angels to gather the elect. (Different from the resurrection/rapture when Jesus Himself raises the dead and changes the living). A single great trumpet blast will be sounded and Jesus's angels go forward at His instructions to gather the Jews scattered in the nations from all around the world to the land of Israel. Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Deuteronomy 30:1-6 will be fulfilled and Matthew 24:31 is the fulfillment.

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I accept that Israel will be regathered--that seems to be the focus of the Olivet Discourse, when the Son of Man comes to regather his people, Israel. However, the angels are gathering the "elect" from one end of heaven to the other, indicating this is the basis for Paul's later reference to a "Rapture."

Paul is merely adding to the hope of Israel the hope of the Gentile nations when they enter in among God's People. They also will be regathered by angels and taken to the Lord in the clouds so that he will return with his whole Church to bring judgment upon the earth. Paul had no thought to separate Israel's regathering to the clouds from the hope of the Gentiles to experience the same.

The 7 Trumpets are, in my view, all symbols of the Last Trumpet. They are here depicted as 7 different trumpets only to show each component part of this time of final judgment. They are portrayed in the symbolism of "trumpets" purely to show that this entire judgment, taken together, will lead to the Last Trumpet.

To say that each trumpet will sound in the future separately is to confuse the language of symbolism with the literal fulfillment. The story is told symbolically because that is the genre of apocalyptic language, expressing the future in almost timeless fashion.

It is the idea that is communicated, and not the exact sequence, except where that is explicitly indicated. Otherwise, symbolic language should be taken as symbolic, and understood as just the symbolic parapheralia/regalia associated with this event.

Lightnings, earthquakes, trumpets, and angels maneuvering from place to place is part of the vision and its imagery--not the literal process when it is to be fulfilled! Ezekiel had a vision of a temple high up on a mountain--a temple that has never been built. And yet, God used the imagery to shame Israel who had been under a Temple system, and had lost their Temple, due to judgment.

The Temple Vision was just a vision, and expressed truths that would in the future be fulfilled in a very different way. The language used was symbolic of something to be fulfilled differently in ithe future, when the Temple Worship was no longer in play.

John uses this same Temple Imagery in Rev 11 to indicate something that was no longer in play--the Temple had been destroyed. So symbolic language is used in the Revelation in an order that communicates without having to be fulfilled in the order it was communicated.

The means used to described this era of judgment is not the literal process by which its fulfillment is to take place. The 7 Trumpets is just the delivery of the message, with accompanying symbolism, as appropriate. But that doesn't mean angels will, in the future, blow trumpets, one after another, and see each event happen consecutively. Just my view....

fli said:

Israel did not have exclusive information to salvation. Neither of the above had the law or other information about God except the creation.

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As I said earlier, there is a "mystery" associated with the creation of Moses' Covenant and its ultimate fulfillment, which became something altogether different. Why would God begin with Temple, Priest, and Sacrifice only to end with none of them? Why would God begin with Israel, ommitting the Gentiles and then focus on the Gentiles to the exclusion of the Jews?

Well, it does seem designed to bless the obedient and to fool the skeptics and pretenders. Many Jews went on following the Law of Moses after it had expired. And many could not believe that God would've instituted a Temple/Priestly/Sacrificial system in the 1st place!

But that's the mystery. Christ came outside of the Law to save those who had been obedient under the Law, and he gave the same opportunity to the world that He had given to Israel. This was God's chosen historical process that is based on preference for the obedient and rejection of the disobedient, and it based on fairness and nondiscrimination.

fli said:

Where does it say that Jesus returns at the end of the tribulation?

Matthew 24:26"Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together. NKJV

Jesus said as the lightning flashes from the east to the west so would His coming be.

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Jesus ends THE TROUBLES by killing the wicked and throwing Satan into the pit for 1000 years.

BACK UP two verse, in Matt. 24:24 Jesus tells about THE AC & False Prophet and then says IF IT WERE POSSIBLE (Key) they would deceive the very Elect (of God or the 1/3 Jews who repent in this case). Then in vs. 25 he says LO.........I have told you BEFOREHAND (Key/Key)

By leaving off this context, one can confuse what Jesus is saying here. So, what he really says is because I have told you BEFOREHAND, it will not be possible for the Elect to be deceived. Now verses 26-28 makes much more sense.

Verses 24 & 25 is Jesus saying the Elect can not be deceived. Therefore in vs. 26, when Jesus says if they tell you I am in the STORE ROOM, or in the Desert, do not believe it. THEN He tells them where he will be coming from, so they can never be DECEIVED. As the lightening comes out oof the east, so will I also. So, we know Jesus will be seen coming in the air, from the East. Vs. 28 is just an axiom of sorts. Jesus says wherever the carcass is at, thee will the Eagles gather.....OR........Wherever the Church is at, that us where I will be, but the carcass mention seems to point towards the Armageddon War, Jesus will be there, where all the dead bodies are at