Time Travel/Bootstrap Paradox?

Neogaia777 · May 21, 2025

Time Travel/Bootstrap Paradox. A reply to somebody.

And that is what is known as the Bootstrap Paradox associated with almost all time travel. You can't go back and change anything if that change will always result in you not going back, or being able to go back, in the first place, etc. So you essentially can't ever go back and change anything ever, is what this theory/paradox amounts to really, etc. Since it will always create a different or alternate future always, etc. But I don't think any of this really matters at all anyway, as I don't think it will ever be possible in the first place, etc. "Time travel", etc. Even faster than light travel can't ever do it, etc. But I also don't know what would or could happen if you could go into a black hole maybe? Or could somehow manage to survive and also escape going into a black hole ever really? But that is only because, right now, nobody can know not one single thing about that right now currently, etc. Because even if that could take you somewhere else in the universe near instantly, the universe still always stays the same age/time equally everywhere really, etc.

Comments?

God Bless.

partinobodycular · May 21, 2025

Neogaia777 said:
And that is what is known as the Bootstrap Paradox associated with almost all time travel. You can't go back and change anything if that change will always result in you not going back, or being able to go back, in the first place, etc. So you essentially can't ever go back and change anything ever, is what this theory/paradox amounts to really, etc.

That's not the Bootstrap Paradox.

The bootstrap paradox is a time travel paradox where an event is both the cause and effect of itself, creating a self-sustaining loop in time. It's a scenario where an object or piece of information seems to emerge from nowhere, with no discernible original cause.
Here's a more detailed explanation:

• The Loop: Imagine a time traveler gives themselves a time machine blueprint in the past. They then use that blueprint to build the time machine, and return to give themselves the blueprint again, creating an infinite cycle.
• No Origin: In a bootstrap paradox, the origin of the object or information is lost within the loop. It's as if it always existed, with no beginning.
• Disrupting Cause and Effect: The bootstrap paradox challenges our understanding of linear cause and effect, as the effect (the time machine) also becomes the cause (the blueprint).
• Examples: The Back to the Future movie provides a popular example. Marty McFly, from the future, plays Johnny B. Goode in 1955, which then influences Chuck Berry to write the song, creating a loop.
• Philosophical Implications: The bootstrap paradox raises questions about free will and determinism, suggesting that even seemingly random acts can be part of a larger, pre-determined loop.

AI responses may include mistakes.

Neogaia777 · May 21, 2025

partinobodycular said:
That's not the Bootstrap Paradox.

It's still the Bootstrap Paradox because the cause (and effect) is that particular timeline for your going back in time, etc.

I may be broadening the definition a little bit with my example of it maybe, etc, and this is probably due to my views/beliefs on determinism and what I believe is the universes deterministic nature, etc, but more specifically it might be that you can't go back in time and change that timeline to a timeline where you never went back in time or it creates a paradox that essentially cannot or could not ever exist in time, etc.

Or with the time traveler and blueprint example your AI used, If your ability to go back in time was always 100% dependent on you going back and giving yourself the blueprint for it, then you never could have ever gone back in time at any of the times ever, etc, because you never did the first time ever, etc. So no "infinite loop" but just only a "non-existent one" that can't exist, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

Neogaia777 · May 21, 2025

partinobodycular said:
That's not the Bootstrap Paradox.

And as far as your AI response goes, it's not a "self-sustaining loop in time", but a "non-existing one that can't exist in time", etc. That's why it's called a paradox in the first place, etc.

What AI are you using?

Take Care/God Bless.

Larniavc · May 21, 2025

Neogaia777 said:
the universe still always stays the same age/time equally everywhere really, etc.

Is that true?

Neogaia777 · May 21, 2025

Larniavc said:
Is that true?

If you could instantly travel 5 billion light years away from where we are right now currently at in our universe to somewhere in the universe that is 5 billion light years away, etc, how old would the universe be there? Would it be 13.7-8 billion years old? Or 13.7-8 minus 5 billion years old there, etc? If you could go from here to there in an instant from here, etc. How old/young would it be there, etc?

SelfSim · May 21, 2025

Neogaia777 said:
If you could instantly travel 5 billion light years away from where we are right now currently at in our universe to somewhere in the universe that is 5 billion light years away, etc, how old would the universe be there? Would it be 13.7-8 billion years old? Or 13.7-8 minus 5 billion years old there, etc? If you could go from here to there in an instant from here, etc. How old/young would it be there, etc?

If one can't go back in time, then how can one also instantly travel 5 billion light years?

Someday, I suppose there's a slim chance that your confused 'arguments' will become more logical ..

Tuur · May 21, 2025

Neogaia777 said:
It's still the Bootstrap Paradox because the cause (and effect) is that particular timeline for your going back in time, etc.

I thought it was like a succinct example I happened to see coming across some animated children's show:

Characters go back in time and someone throws an apple or orange at them, maybe as a warning. A character pockets the apple. Then it turns out that they themselves threw the apple to warn their earlier versions.

"But where did the apple come from?" a character asks.

"We picked it up when we threw it at us," said another character.

"But where did it come from?"

This went back and forth a few times without resolution.

Tuur · May 21, 2025

For the last short few years, I've come to think the paradoxes couldn't happen because time is essentially a dimension of space. So to return to another place and time, then that place and time already exists in the universe. From the POV of someone further along the dimension of time, it's already happened, but to someone further back it's yet to happen. So if you didn't have a nice long chat with yourself one 4th of July in 2021, if you return to July 4th, 2021, you won't have one because you didn't have one before.

sjastro · May 21, 2025

Neogaia777 said:
If you could instantly travel 5 billion light years away from where we are right now currently at in our universe to somewhere in the universe that is 5 billion light years away, etc, how old would the universe be there? Would it be 13.7-8 billion years old? Or 13.7-8 minus 5 billion years old there, etc? If you could go from here to there in an instant from here, etc. How old/young would it be there, etc?

I am sure we have had this discussion before, if you were able to travel instantaneously (faster than the speed of light) you will be outside the light cones of the space-time diagram.
Inside the cones in the timelike region causality is preserved, outside in the spacelike region there are no ordering of events, you could be younger, older or both on reaching your destination.

Why I think perhaps time-travel is impossible

Think about it, if you for example use a strong magnet to speed things up in sort of an attempt to travel in time, people would notice and resist the changes, so only nature would change and speed up or go backwards, but I have the suspicion that the same would happen to nature also, that it...

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Neogaia777 · Thursday at 3:24 AM

sjastro said:
I am sure we have had this discussion before, if you were able to travel instantaneously (faster than the speed of light) you will be outside the light cones of the space-time diagram.
Inside the cones in the timelike region causality is preserved, outside in the spacelike region there are no ordering of events, you could be younger, older or both on reaching your destination.

View attachment 365329

Why I think perhaps time-travel is impossible

Think about it, if you for example use a strong magnet to speed things up in sort of an attempt to travel in time, people would notice and resist the changes, so only nature would change and speed up or go backwards, but I have the suspicion that the same would happen to nature also, that it...

www.christianforums.com

I was saying that if you could, regardless of what would happen with you, what would be the time there, etc? How old (or young) would it be there?

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 3:27 AM

Tuur said:
I thought it was like a succinct example I happened to see coming across some animated children's show:

Characters go back in time and someone throws an apple or orange at them, maybe as a warning. A character pockets the apple. Then it turns out that they themselves threw the apple to warn their earlier versions.

"But where did the apple come from?" a character asks.

"We picked it up when we threw it at us," said another character.

"But where did it come from?"

This went back and forth a few times without resolution.

Yes, it's a "chicken and the egg" argument, and is therefore a paradox, and can't happen in time, because it never happened in the first place, etc.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 3:29 AM

SelfSim said:
If one can't go back in time, then how can one also instantly travel 5 billion light years?

Someday, I suppose there's a slim chance that your confused 'arguments' will become more logical ..

@sjastro also

I was asking people to theorize, and then answer the question, regardless of what could/might happen or go on with you, etc, what would be the time/age there once you stopped, etc?

SelfSim · Thursday at 3:56 AM

Neogaia777 said:
I was asking people to theorize, and then answer the question, regardless of what could/might happen or go on with you, etc, what would be the time/age there once you stopped, etc?

The question is incoherent.
Answers are therefore, irrelevant.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 3:58 AM

SelfSim said:
The question is incoherent.
Answers are therefore, irrelevant.

The answer to the question is obvious. I think you just don't want to answer it.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 4:04 AM

@sjastro @SelfSim

And for those who are still struggling with this question because physical matter/material cannot go faster than light (and I'm not saying it ever can either, etc), then imagine you found a different way to go there, or be transported/placed there near instantly, etc? What would be the time/age there, etc?

It's a very simple question, and I know you guys can answer it.

God Bless.

sjastro · Thursday at 4:50 AM

Neogaia777 said:
@sjastro @SelfSim

And for those who are still struggling with this question because physical matter/material cannot go faster than light (and I'm not saying it ever can either, etc), then imagine you found a different way to go there, or be transported/placed there near instantly, etc? What would be the time/age there, etc?

It's a very simple question, and I know you guys can answer it.

God Bless.

You are missing the point, if travellers can exceed the speed of light so can information.
If information of the Big Bang exceeds the speed of the light, observers can receive the information before the Big Bang occurred.
This means observers existed before space-time of the universe was created and therefore makes the age of the universe invalid.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 5:00 AM

sjastro said:
You are missing the point, if travellers can exceed the speed of light so can information.
If information of the Big Bang exceeds the speed of the light, observers can receive the information before the Big Bang occurred.
This means observers existed before space-time of the universe was created and therefore makes the age of the universe invalid.

How old (or young) do you think the universe is? I'm guessing you go with the common consensus that it is around 13.7-8 billion years old, correct? Well, I'm just looking for an answer to my very, very simple question, etc. So, if we take that number that where we are right now at in the universe is 13.7-8 billion years old since the BB, then how old would it be if you could (theoretically) get to a place in the universe that was several billions of light years distance away from us? (I just used or just threw out the number 5 billion, but you could use any number) How old would it be there if you could get there in an instant, etc? There are only two possible answers if we use these numbers, etc. It's either 13.7-8 billion years old there, or it is 13.7-8 billion years minus 5 billion, etc. So, which is it? Because the rest of what you are saying seems like "woo" to me? There were observers before the universe began? What, are you religious or something, lol? (Although it is interesting though, and I might look more into it though, etc).

God Bless.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 5:10 AM

sjastro said:
You are missing the point, if travellers can exceed the speed of light so can information.
If information of the Big Bang exceeds the speed of the light, observers can receive the information before the Big Bang occurred.
This means observers existed before space-time of the universe was created and therefore makes the age of the universe invalid.

I'll just tell you my opinion on it, k. Light creates the images/information we recieve at our present location, so if you could get somewhere else very far away in an instant, say 5 billion light years away, then we are seeing it 5 billion years in the past from our present position/location, so if we could get there in an instant, it would be 5 billion more years older or more quote/unquote in the "future" from what we were seeing of it from the location we just left, etc. Or 13.7-8 billion years old equally everywhere, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 · Thursday at 5:32 AM

Neogaia777 said:
I'll just tell you my opinion on it, k. Light creates the images/information we recieve at our present location, so if you could get somewhere else very far away in an instant, say 5 billion light years away, then we are seeing it 5 billion years in the past from our present position/location, so if we could get there in an instant, it would be 5 billion more years older or more quote/unquote in the "future" from what we were seeing of it from the location we just left, etc. Or 13.7-8 billion years old equally everywhere, etc.

God Bless.

And now your probably going to say to me, well, it was spacetime that expanded or grew or was expanding in or at or from the very beginning, so of course it would be the same age equally everywhere, etc. But, if that is the case, then it must have expanded very, very fast at the very beginning, and then all but stopped, or slowed way, way down very much severely, very, very shortly after that, etc. But then, that would also directly contradict the evidence that says that the universe is still expanding, and is accelerating right now in that expansion?

Take Care/God Bless.

Time Travel/Bootstrap Paradox?

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