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Denominations

The Liturgist

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I have NO IDEA as to which denomination I belong. Does it matter?

Well, yes, in a sense, in that denominations have become placards which represent beliefs about Christianity, and some of those beliefs are known to be erroneous and to not constitute right worship of God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and thus to be a hazard from a soteriological perspective.
 
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timothyu

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Well, yes, in a sense, in that denominations have become placards which represent beliefs about Christianity, and some of those beliefs are known to be erroneous and to not constitute right worship of God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and thus to be a hazard from a soteriological perspective.
In other words it gives some a reason to 'critique' others.
 
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bèlla

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We too should not be complacent and blindly follow organized religion on it's own say so. It has always been those outside the sanctioned 'human' church that have been on the path of truth. It doesn't need tradition, ritual, doctrines or regulatory powers to exist.

I agree with your perspective and have a similar approach. I wonder if it’s a reflection of personality, experience, spiritual endowment or a combination of the three. I’ve never been the type of person to believe everything I hear, follow the crowd or accept things as fact without study and research. Especially when it comes to religion and my walk with Lord. That requires a lot of trust and faith and a commitment to truth. You’ll inevitably discover inaccuracies and dichotomies you’ll have to confront and it’s easier when truth is your barometer as opposed to a system. Our affiliations don’t divorce us from the necessity of pursuing the same.

~bella
 
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Beth77

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Well, yes, in a sense, in that denominations have become placards which represent beliefs about Christianity, and some of those beliefs are known to be erroneous and to not constitute right worship of God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and thus to be a hazard from a soteriological perspective.

Thank you.

I believe in Jesus and am doing my best to follow his commandments such as loving God and loving one another.

Is that sufficient for God and in what denomination might I best belong?

Thank you again!
 
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timothyu

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I wonder if it’s a reflection of personality, experience, spiritual endowment or a combination of the three.
Probably to a degree, but I believe God will more readily influence and encourage those who willingly seek Him on their own, rather than put trust in fellow man to represent Him without extra effort. Some of us feel we have no choice but to expand horizons above a religious exercise program where we sweat to the oldies, and may have found transcending opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God rather than the kingdoms of man. The two are opposite, after all and Christianity abandoned the Kingdom of the Jesus Movement a looong time ago..
 
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Rescued One

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I am a Christian (follower of Christ) first and foremost. Personally, I do not believe there will be any denominations in heaven. What do you think Jesus would say today about so many denominations
Job 42: 2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

The Word of God teaches us that God is in control. He allows denominations.
 
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Rescued One

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Job 42: 2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

The Word of God teaches us that God is in control. He allows denominations, cults, non-Christian religions, and many sins. He could strike all sinners with lightening but He doesn't.
 
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bèlla

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Probably to a degree, but I believe God will more readily influence and encourage those who willingly seek Him on their own, rather than put trust in fellow man to represent Him without extra effort. Some of us feel we have no choice but to expand horizons above a religious exercise program where we sweat to the oldies, and may have found transcending opened their eyes to the Kingdom of God rather than the kingdoms of man. The two are opposite, after all and Christianity abandoned the Kingdom of the Jesus Movement a looong time ago..

One of the things that remained with me from my time in the synagogue was the encouragement to reflect on the message openly and hear the same from others. The perspectives were always surprising and beneficial. We’re at different points spiritually and learning from one another is important. There were many times when the Lord dropped something in my spirit during a sermon and no one knew because I couldn’t speak and I‘m not alone in that.

We started following the biblical calendar seriously a year ago and the spiritual attunement that followed was phenomenal. When a new month arrives I know where my focus belongs and the things I’m meant to address within myself and in prayer. I saw correlations with the seasons and began to align my diet and activities to its frequency and my mind was blown. I saw spiritual gifts in a new light and there’s a continual outpouring that brings me closer to Him.

I want to have a trifecta of sorts in my walk with the Lord. Where what I say is what I do and how I live. If I’m professing faith or knowledge at a certain degree. There should be a reciprocal expression in my actions and spiritual response.

~bella
 
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ARBITER01

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Well, yes, in a sense, in that denominations have become placards which represent beliefs about Christianity, and some of those beliefs are known to be erroneous and to not constitute right worship of God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, and thus to be a hazard from a soteriological perspective.

And some of those denominations are operating correctly with Jesus.

As a Triune believing Pentecostal, would I really be comfortable in a traditional style church that is adamantly against the gifts, or would it make more sense for me to go to a Pentecostal church that has similar beliefs as I do, where I can learn and share with others there?
 
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ARBITER01

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In the end, are we supposed to fit God in in ways that pleases us, or are we to change ourselves to suit His will which has no interest in our establishments.

I don't hate church, in fact, I receive quite a blessing every time I attend a service.

I think the biggest blessing I was receiving was when I was attending 3 different churches each week a few years back, and I'm thinking about attending those same churches again that way.

If you're not getting anything out of fellowship with other believers, then maybe there is something you're not doing right. Just saying.
 
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The Liturgist

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And some of those denominations are operating correctly with Jesus.

I would have no argument with you there.

As a Triune believing Pentecostal, would I really be comfortable in a traditional style church that is adamantly against the gifts, or would it make more sense for me to go to a Pentecostal church that has similar beliefs as I do, where I can learn and share with others there?

Well that’s kind of begging the question because you assume that all traditional liturgical churches are cessationist. Some liturgical churches have been known to accept the Charismatic movement, for example, there are charismatic parishes within Anglicanism and Lutheranism, and there have been charismatic movements in Roman Catholicism.

In Orthodoxy we are absolutely not cessationist although our experience of the gifts of the spirit is very different from that of the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. For example, I have been blessed to meet Orthodox saints who have these gifts, and it was very remarkable but also very subdued. I am not in a position to make a generally negative statement in denying the authenticity of all Pentecostal gifts; we don’t know about your gifts because we aren’t in communion with you, and likewise you don’t know about the gifts that exist in our church for fairly similiar reason.

The only issues where the Orthodox tend to be concerned about Pentecostal and Charismatic worship is in regards to certain gifts which seem contrary to the idea of good church order, for example, the so-called “Toronto Blessing”, which seems to run contrary to the instruction of St. Paul, in the context of the charisms and worship by the way, that everything be done “Decently and in order.” You might disagree on that, but the rauckus nature of some services in churches that are Pentecostal or Charismatic particularly compared to the very solemn liturgies of the early church has been a subject of concern. However I have seen Pentecostal churches in which everything was done decently and in order, and so that is not a concern for us. Likewise, the small minority of Pentecostals who handle venemous snakes - that is not something the Orthodox would endorse; indeed most Christians, indeed I think most Pentecostals, regard the Applachian snake-handling Pentecostals to be operating on a misunderstanding of the Longer Ending of Mark. And by concern, to be clear, I mean a concern in terms of ecumenical dialogue.

One issue your post also intersects is the idea of liturgical rite. For example, you mention that there are things in some traditional churches that would make you uncomfortable. Actually, historically, Christians in different places worshipped in slightly different ways, that incorporated local customs, and while nothing in any of the traditional liturgical rites such as those of the Christians of Syria, Ethiopia, Egypt, Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq, Persia and Kurdistan), India, Greece, Romania, the Slavic lands, or various parts of Western Europe should make anyone uncomfortable, there is the fact that people do become accustomed to worshipping in a certain way based on the particular local church they are a member of. For example, in Oriental Orthodoxy, there are different liturgical rites used by the persecuted Armenians, the persecuted Copts of Egypt, the persecuted Aramaic-speaking Syriac Orthodox in the Middle East, the persecuted Mar Thoma Christians in India, the persecuted Eritrean Orthodox, and the persecuted Ethiopian Orthodox (who were persecuted throughout the land during the Derg communist regime, and additionally have experienced violent persecution and martyrdom outside their country at the hands of ISIS, Al Shabaab and other regional terrorist organizations.

Likewise, in Eastern Orthodoxy, there exists a Western Rite for Western Christians who prefer not to switch to the Byzantine Rite liturgy, and the Byzantine Rite is celebrated in several distinct ways, for example, the Slavs sing in Church Slavonic, with the Serbians having a different set of music from the Bulgarians, Russians and Ukrainains, and there being some difference between those three groups as well, and the Carpatho-Rusyns having a completely different form of music. And while in every Eastern Orthodox regional church there is some use of Byzantine Chant, there are different forms of Byzantine Chant, for example, Syro-Byzantine Chant or the exquisite Slavonic Byzantine Chant of the Bulgarians. The Georgians for their part mostly worship using three-part harmony, which has also seen some minimal use in the Greek chruch, but is primarily a Georgian Orthodox practice.

Likewise the Roman Catholics, Anglicans and Lutherans have different liturgical rites. For example, the Ukrainian Lutheran Church uses a version of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom also used by the Orthodox.

This relates to an important point made by CS Lewis, that when people learn the worship services and use them, change can be extremely disruptive spiritually. CS Lewis was in the Church of England at a time when ill-advised tinkering with the traditional services of the Book of Common Prayer started to become extremely widespread. For this reason I oppose casual meddling in the liturgy of existing churches. This includes the sweeping changes many mainline Protestant denominations and the RCC have made since 1969.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thank you.

I believe in Jesus and am doing my best to follow his commandments such as loving God and loving one another.

Is that sufficient for God and in what denomination might I best belong?

Thank you again!

Well, it’s a start. But there is an important issue, which is what Jesus are we worshipping? If your church rejects the idea that Jesus Christ is God Incarnate, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God (John 1:1-18), who is of one essence with the Father, and who is fully God and fully man without change, confusion, separation or division, or the idea of God as the Holy and Life Giving Trinity, one God in three persons: the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, these are serious issues. There is a substantial semantic difference that results from whether or not we believe that God in the person of the Son died on the Cross, vs. if one believes that a created being, a Son of God by adoption, who is not Himself God, as the Unitarians argue, died on the Cross; our God who suffers for us by putting on our nature, becoming mortal so that we might become immortal through His resurrection, is very different from for example the Islamic God who boasts of having nothing in common with humans but is rather entirely transcendent. Unitarianism is uncomfortably close to Islam. At some point we have to draw the line.

Fortunately Christian Forums solved this problem by adopting the Nicene Creed as part of the Statement of Faith, which rather than being exclusionary, is inclusionary, in that it invites the participation of all normative Christians on the forums while at the same time protecting us from being harrangued by Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons and others. It is one of the reasons why I love this forum so much. I would not be a member here if we did not have the Statement of Faith as a standard for participation in the theological debate forums.

Additionally this site has done everyone a further service by including the relevant supporting Scripture for each line in the Nicene Creed in the Statement of Faith, and by clarifying the meaning of words such as “Catholic” so that there is no confusion about whether nor not the Creed is Scriptural, or what it is talking about, and also includes a few other useful things such as a prohibition against people alleging that St. Paul was not a legitimate apostle of Christ our True God: CF Statement of Faith
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't hate church, in fact, I receive quite a blessing every time I attend a service.

I think the biggest blessing I was receiving was when I was attending 3 different churches each week a few years back, and I'm thinking about attending those same churches again that way.

If you're not getting anything out of fellowship with other believers, then maybe there is something you're not doing right. Just saying.

I would agree with that entirely.
 
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The Liturgist

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and in what denomination might I best belong?

Well I myself, frustrated with the state of the mainline Protestant churches in which I had grown up, made the decision to join the persecuted Orthodox Church, due to the persecution that was ongoing in 2014 against the Christians in Syria. 11 years later and it is still ongoing, and so my preference is to be with the churches that are experiencing the most persecution. I’ve also found the people to be lovely.

There are other churches besides the Orthodox that are being actively persecuted, by the way, for example, the Anglicans of Pakistan and certain other Muslim majority countries, and also Christians in India are experiencing increasing persecution from the Hindus, and indeed in some Western countries Christians have been persecuted for expressing Scriptural views concerning sexual morality which are unpopular in the present climate. And of course, in North Korea the situation is a nightmare; somewhat less so in Communist China, but conditions there are far from ideal, and in particular the historic Chinese Orthodox Church, which was in China very early because of trade with the Russian Empire (the first Christians in China, who were of the Church of the East, were martyred in a genocide by the Mongol-Turkic warlord Tamerlane and his sons, starting in the late 12th century, who killed off everyone in the Church of the East outside of Mesopotamia, Persia, and India. And before that time, the Church of the East was geographically the largest in the world, stretching from Socotra, an island off the south coast of Yemen, to the Caucausian mountains in what is now Azerbaijan, and from there right across central Asia to Mongolia, and from Mongolia to Tibet in the Southeast corner, across China, and thence to India and Sri Lanka. And all were killed, in some cases with probable Buddhist complicity, except in the Malabar Coast of India and what is now an area of modern day iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey.

And the Ancient/Assyrian Church of the East, along with its neighbors, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Antiochian Orthodox Church, the Chaldean Catholic Church, the Syriac Catholic Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church and others in the region of the Levant and Iraq are still enduring persecution at present; they also experienced the genocide in 1915 waged by the Ottoman Empire.

Yet the people are loving and happy.

So in general, I like to be with Christians who are experiencing or who have experienced martyrdom, having joined the Orthodox Church for that reason, but that’s just my view. But there are a number of denominations, including Protestant denominations, which fall into this general category.

Lately large numbers of people have been going the Orthodox Church; I’m glad I got in before the rush, because at present the demand for baptisms is intense. Our growth rates are now beginning to exceed the combined growth rate of all Restorationist churches (not traditional Protestant, but rather Restorationist churches of 19th century origin, which had lately been growing in several cases), by a wide margin, and indeed I suspect we are now the fastest growing denomination, but we also do have a shortage of clergy and organizational problems.

I very much love the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

Essentially, you hit the core element, which is love: love for God, love for our neighbors. Don’t join a church without love. There are a group of ostensibly Orthodox churches that are not in communion with the majority of Orthodox Christians known as “Old Calendarists” who I had unpleasant experiences with due to a lack of love, but the problem could have been specific to the parish I encountered, but it was a clear problem. I did not like the extremely negative view they had about the “World Orthodox” as they called the major Orthodox churches, which are not exactly worldly, given that not one Orthodox church has even considered, for example, departing from Scriptural teaching on human sexuality. But they object because we are engaged in loving dialogue with our Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran brethren, dialogue which I would note has resulted in Anglicans providing the persecuted Orhtodox with finanical assistance and installing icons in Westminster Abbey (also King Charles III and his father donated large amounts to restore the Holy Mountain; Prince Philip, memory eternal, was baptized Orthodox as part of the former Greek monarchy), the Lutherans in Western Europe dropped the filioque from their creed, which had been a major issue of contention, and the Roman Catholics organized for items to be returned to us - various holy relics which had been taken during and after the Crusades by various Western European powers. And we have benefitted from a loving relationship in a great many respects, including on this site.

St. Paul said that if we have not love, we are nothing, and I believe in that very strongly. Truth and Love are important and go hand-in-hand, so the ideal denomination must embrace Truth and Love in a loving manner which does not reduce itself to holier-than-thou elitism or legalism.
 
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jmldn2

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Job 42: 2
“I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

The Word of God teaches us that God is in control. He allows denominations.
God allows much and yes He is in control. However, there are denominations whom do not represent God's plan(s). Instead of concentrating on denominations, it is His Word we should study and act upon. What do we worship; God's Word or denominations
 
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ARBITER01

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Well that’s kind of begging the question because you assume that all traditional liturgical churches are cessationist. Some liturgical churches have been known to accept the Charismatic movement, for example, there are charismatic parishes within Anglicanism and Lutheranism, and there have been charismatic movements in Roman Catholicism.

I don't expect to find anyone practicing the gifts in any of the more traditional churches in my area. Even bringing the subject up in one of those churches would probably invite trouble.

In Orthodoxy we are absolutely not cessationist although our experience of the gifts of the spirit is very different from that of the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. For example, I have been blessed to meet Orthodox saints who have these gifts, and it was very remarkable but also very subdued. I am not in a position to make a generally negative statement in denying the authenticity of all Pentecostal gifts; we don’t know about your gifts because we aren’t in communion with you, and likewise you don’t know about the gifts that exist in our church for fairly similiar reason.

The Spiritual gifts Paul listed in 1 Corinthians should be the same across the body of Christ. Anyone trying to add to that list is more likely trying to wrongly draw attention unto themselves.

The only issues where the Orthodox tend to be concerned about Pentecostal and Charismatic worship is in regards to certain gifts which seem contrary to the idea of good church order, for example, the so-called “Toronto Blessing”, which seems to run contrary to the instruction of St. Paul, in the context of the charisms and worship by the way, that everything be done “Decently and in order.” You might disagree on that, but the rauckus nature of some services in churches that are Pentecostal or Charismatic particularly compared to the very solemn liturgies of the early church has been a subject of concern. However I have seen Pentecostal churches in which everything was done decently and in order, and so that is not a concern for us.

From what I was able to gather, those individuals involved with that "Toronto blessing" junk were preying on the the more charismatic churches. I don't think any of the Assemblies of GOD churches allowed it. It was just hypnotism. Anytime someone has to prep the audience beforehand is trying to operate in hypnotism.

Likewise, the small minority of Pentecostals who handle venemous snakes - that is not something the Orthodox would endorse; indeed most Christians, indeed I think most Pentecostals, regard the Applachian snake-handling Pentecostals to be operating on a misunderstanding of the Longer Ending of Mark. And by concern, to be clear, I mean a concern in terms of ecumenical dialogue.

You and your snake phobia. What's a matter with a few snakes in the service, huh? They only bite every once in a while, what's a little bit of arthritis? /jk

The term Pentecostal encompasses a wide variety of churches. You will find that a lot of the proclivity towards the snake handling in service was coming out of the oneness Pentecostal camps, or worse yet, from small Pentecostal churches in those areas that just had their own wild set of beliefs that they allowed.

From what I can find, snake handling was never a product of the Assemblies of GOD.
 
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timothyu

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If you're not getting anything out of fellowship with other believers, then maybe there is something you're not doing right. Just saying.
Fellowship with other believers, or perhaps a better word should be seekers, is fine. Jesus said to serve God and each other. It's the pause to listen to the commercial that can be unsettling, listening to a lot of talk that doesn't really say anything. People back in the day lived the life with each other and didn't need weekly schooling. As the old saying goes from back in Jesus' day, they were doers, not listeners.
 
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timothyu

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Are denominations just a way to worship God according to what that denomination believes is the correct way? Does the Lord not tell us how to worship God?
Perhaps the personality seeks that which suits itself to avoid further seeking or change. It's like clothing. Instead of being comfortable in our own skin, we seek whatever pleases us to cover up who we really are. The world is an illusion backwards to the Kingdom, and religion seems to be built upon bolstering that illusion rather than what Jesus taught about the Kingdom. He showed the way to remove the blinders from our minds, but even the religion went back to aligning itself with the world rather than the Kingdom. We keep reverting back to self.
 
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