Does Matthew 24 describe the rapture?

Spiritual Jew · May 13, 2025

keras said:
I shake my head in wonderment, that seemingly intelligent people see things that are not there.

That is what I do often when reading your posts that describe things that are not there. Like nuclear missiles in Zechariah 5, for instance.

keras said:
It would be better if all wars ceased now, and sure: being present with the Lord would be better too, but it is never said to happen,
Until the Millennium.

You are completely ignoring what Paul said because of your doctrinal bias. He very clearly indicated that while we are in the body we are absent from the Lord, but being absent from the body results in being present with the Lord. You thinking that someone can only be present with the Lord in a body completely contradicts what Paul indicated in 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 and Philippians 2:21-24.

keras said:
Who it was that John saw in heaven, was the Christian martyrs.

Hello??? You just admitted that he saw Christians in heaven and at the same time you try to say that no Christians have ever gone to heaven? You are contradicting yourself.

keras said:
You have to admit; they are special and God keeps their souls/spirits under the Altar in heaven.

LOL! God does not show favoritism to His people. There is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave or free, male or female, martyr or non-martyr, in Christ's church. It is foolish to think that God would have only some, rather than all, of His people who are physically dead in heaven.

keras said:
They are also the multitude of Revelation 19:1, who are allowed to cry out at times. In no way are they fully conscious and alive as we are now.

Hahaha! They cry out, but are not fully conscious?! Get serious! Talk about seemingly intelligent people seeing things that are not there. While their existence is in heaven and not on earth, and I'm sure heaven is not exactly how it is on earth, the fact is that they are shown to be fully conscious. Conscious enough to know that their deaths have not yet been avenged and conscious enough to wonder how much longer it would be for that to happen.

keras said:
Is this a 'rapture' proof?
It is not, because they are all the martyrs killed since Stephen. Millions; cruelly murdered, they are special to God.
Proved by how they thank God for having taken vengeance for their blood. Rev 19:2b, which you cunningly left off.

That any rapture to heaven is false, is proved by the total lack of any Prophecy saying He will do that. What we do face very soon, is the great test of our faith, 1 Peter 4:12, and many will fail when what they expected - does not happen.

Please do not respond to multiple different people in one post. I wasted time trying to figure out why you were saying this to me until I went back and looked at the post and noticed that you were talking to Douggg instead.

Spiritual Jew · May 13, 2025

Fisherking said:
How about cutting out the quips?

How about cutting out the nonsense?

Fisherking said:
As a preacher of 40 plus years sir nothing is a joke to me,

I hope you don't preach often on eschatology because you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about in relation to that.

Fisherking said:
I have written a blog long ago explaining why Mattt. 24 is not what people think, they take verses 7-8 and many thrust it into being the 70th week judgments, it could never be, the BIRTH PANGS deliver the BABY (70th week). Jesus only used verses 7-8 to show the disciples why vs. 6 and the 70 AD events could not be THE END (70th week). Verses 7-8 is basically just a demonstration to reaffirm why the temples destruction, would not be Jesus' 2nd coming. That was way on down the road and................HERE'S WHY................verses 7-8, then back to the Disciples in vs. 9. Jesus told them they would all die save John, remember when Peter asked about why John would not die and Jesus told him to let him worry about that? (paraphrasing).

I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Why would He use global events that occurred before 70 AD to prove that what would happen in 70 AD was not the second coming?

Fisherking said:
Well, when are those three questions divided up? What divides them? Vs. 14 the Rapture.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Now w get a simple DEMONSTRATION BELOW why the end can not be the 70 AD events.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom(not happening in Rome's time): and there shall be famines, and pestilences(Black Plague/COVID19), and earthquakes, in divers places.8 All these are the beginning of sorrows(The Birth Pangs that BIRTH the 70th week).

Then in vs. 9 Jesus reverts right back to a "Survival Guide for the Disciples to birth the Church, but he also warns them they will all die, and must be examples to the early church by enduring.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end[OF ONES LIFE), the same shall be saved.

This is nonsense. I thought you said Matthew 24:4-13 relates to 70 AD? But, you're saying verses 7 and 8 refer to the future? I can't make any sense at all out of what you're saying here.

Fisherking said:
Now we get the Raptures TIMING in passing.......in vs 14

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come(70th week end times.........BOOM, ten we jump to the 70th week AoD).

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand}

So, the first question was WHEN SHALL THESE THINGS BE........(Temples Destruction) then they ask the other two question what will be the sign of your coming (vs. 14 and verses 36-51 and even verses 29-31) and the End of the Age (verses 30-31),

So, why would verses 4-13 have anything to do with those other two questions? It was about the First Century Church and the Disciples lives. Everything after vs. 14 is about the 70th week end times. So, verses 4-13 were ONLY ABOUT the 70 AD events and first century Christians.

Above, you indicated that verses 7 and 8 relate to future events that occur but not indicate that the end has come yet, but now you are saying verses 4-13, which includes verses 7 and 8, are about the 70 AD events. I can't follow what you're saying at all because you're contradicting yourself.

Fisherking said:
Then verses 15-31 are about the 70th week end time events.

It quit letting me QUOTE/REPLY so I will COPY&PASTE then put your reply/points in ALL BLACK.

When it refers to "the end" in Matthew 24:6, 13 and 14 it's related to the end of the age. Yes, verse 13 may refer to the end of their lives or the end of the age, whichever comes first, but the overall passage relates to His coming and the end of the age. So, the comparison I made to 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 is valid.

Verses 15-31 are about the 70th week end and the 2nd coming, not vs. 13.

But, you indicated that verses 7 and 8 referred to the future. You can't seem to make up your mind as to what you believe. No, verses 15-22 refer to things related to the destruction of the temple buildings because those verses relate to things in Judea, not the whole world. Jesus said let those in Judea flee to the mountains, not those throughout the world. His second coming is a global event, not a local event.

Fisherking said:
Before Jesus comes and we are gathered to Him, there will be a mass falling away from the faith first. Think about it. Don't you think when wickedness is no longer restrained that it would result in more people falling away from the faith? Of course it would. Just like how Jesus said in Matthew 24:9-13 that an increase in wickedness would result in many turning away from the faith and the love of most growing cold.

For starters, we are in Heaven when the 70th wee starts, you guys have it all backwards, the reason the Beast is not RESTRAINED is because the Church DEPARTS !! The Gates o Hell, SHALL NOT overcome my Church (Jesus' own quote about the plight of the church). We the Church delivered the MORTALM WOUND to the Beast (Rome, the 6th Head) and God locked Apollyon (Destroyer of Israel) into the bottomless pit until the First Woe falls. Only when we depart will the Beast return. Why? Because the 70th week was designed to bring Israel unto repentance. So, by not getting the timing of the Rapture correct, Satan can have a field day on everything else to do with Eschatology and its all important TIMINGS of Events. Verses 9-13 are about the First Century only.

Only Jesus Christ can fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that needed to be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks. For example, one of the things was to "make reconciliation for iniquity". Only Jesus could do that! And He did by shedding His blood and sacrificing Himself on the cross!

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

JulieB67 · May 13, 2025

Fisherking said:
It never ceases to amaze me how people will change the bible they are using, or try to look up and twist the meaning, like they do for the word "Anti" [Christ] they say can mean also mean they are pro for.

And it doesn't amaze me at all that you don't have an answer.

And how is posting Greek words and their actual meanings twisting? It's the actual definitions.

Fisherking said:
While "anti-" is most commonly understood to mean "against" or "opposed to", it can also be used in a way that implies a supportive or affirmative stance.

It can also mean "instead of".

Fisherking said:
Received into Heaven

Not biblical. And you accuse others of adding or changing God's word??

Spiritual Jew · May 13, 2025

Fisherking said:
The 70 weeks prophesy is about Israel, not Jesus, he is one of THREE MARKERS.

1.) THE WALL
2.) The Messiahs life & death
3.) The Agreement (Covenant) between Israel and the Little Horn/AC power over the E.U. (10)

Never have so many thought they knew so much whilst knowing so little. That is my all time favorite quote on Prophetic Understandings. Jesus was killed after 69 weeks or 483 years exactly.

Nonsense! This is blasphemy! Only Jesus Christ could fulfill the requirements of the fulfillment of the 70 weeks. Only He could do what Israel could not do for themselves.

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Here is my understanding of the fulfillment of each of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24. I will list the scriptures that I believe refer to the fulfillment of each of them.

1. To Finish Transgression

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Hebrews 9:15 That is why he is the one who mediates the new covenant between God and people, so that all who are invited can receive the eternal inheritance God has promised them. For Christ died to set them free from the penalty of the sins they had committed under that first covenant.

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace".

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

2. To Put an End to Sin

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

1 John 3:5 And ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not.

2 Cor 5:21 For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

3. To Make Reconciliation for Iniquity

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

2 Corinthians 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven

4. To Bring In Everlasting Righteousness

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Romans 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

5. To Seal Up the Vision and Prophecy

Luke 18:31 Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Matt 26:56 But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled.

6. To Anoint The Most Holy

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Acts 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed.

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel.

Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week.

Douggg · May 13, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
Only Jesus could fulfill those things. Without His death and resurrection, none of those things could be fulfilled. So, if your interpretation of the 70 week prophecy does not have Him being cut off (crucified) within the 70th week, it is a false doctrine as His death is crucial to fulfilling the prophecy. He was to be cut off after the end of the 69th week (Daniel 9:26) and that placed the timing of His death within the 70th week.

I may be misunderstanding you. Please, clarify if I am.

You believe that Jesus's death and resurrection was in the middle of the 70th week ?

What event ended the 70th week ? Or do you believe that 3 1/2 years of the 70th week are still future ?

Jamdoc · May 13, 2025

JulieB67 said:
And it doesn't amaze me at all that you don't have an answer.

And how is posting Greek words and their actual meanings twisting? It's the actual definitions.

It can also mean "instead of".

Not biblical. And you accuse others of adding or changing God's word??

the paralambano is the same root as used in John 14

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

to receive unto the place He prepares for us is not really in line with the idea of we go up to meet Jesus and then come right back down to Armageddon.

There are saints in heaven regarding the 24 elders, Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19.
Now I'm not arguing for pre-trib, the 24 elders are... 24. 2 dozen. Not representing a much larger number of the Church, I believe that is represented by the uncountable great multitude.

But they do wind up in heaven after the 6th seal, where the signs Jesus gave as being immediately after the tribulation happen. They are before the throne of God in Revelation 7, wearing clothes and holding objects in their hands (IE they have bodies), In Revelation 15, they're carrying harps, again, bearing objects, I don't think non-corporeal. In Revelation 19 it's explicit that they are people in heaven, and wearing clothes.

All 3 places unlike the 5th seal, where they are described as souls, they are not described as souls, and they are doing things that people with bodies do.
the 6th seal contains the signs for the end of tribulation, so that is enduring till the end.

It's not till the end of the wrath of God.

Spiritual Jew · May 13, 2025

Douggg said:
I may be misunderstanding you. Please, clarify if I am.

You believe that Jesus's death and resurrection was in the middle of the 70th week ?

Yes. Basically, anyway. Surely, you must be familiar with that belief? It is shared by millions of Christians and is a view that has been shared on this forum many times.

But, did you notice that I "liked" your post on the other forum which indicated that the sacrifices and offerings would cease "in the midst" of the 70th week rather than exactly in the middle of the 70th week? That is because I think Jesus's ministry lasted about 3 years, not 3.5 years. So, His death wasn't exactly in the middle of the 70th week, but it was in the midst of the 70th week. Some say His ministry was 3.5 years, so they say that the sacrifices and offerings of the old covenant became obsolete (ceased) in the middle of the 70th week. It doesn't make a big difference either way.

Douggg said:
What event ended the 70th week ? Or do you believe that 3 1/2 years of the 70th week are still future ?

So, this is a prophecy that is related to Israel in particular even though we know, of course, that Jesus didn't die only for the sins of Israel. I believe that Christ's ministry, His death, His resurrection, and the preaching of the gospel of Christ first in Israel all were part of confirming the new covenant to Israel. So, I believe the end of the 70th week is when the gospel started going to the Gentiles since the purpose of the 70th week in terms of confirming the new covenant in relation to Israel had been accomplished at that point.

I don't believe it makes any sense at all to see a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks or between the middle or so of the 70th week and the second half or part of the 70th week. No gaps at all in the first 69 or 69 1/2 weeks, but then suddenly a long gap between the 69th and 70th weeks or between the 69 1/2 week point and end of the 70th week? I'm sorry, but I think that is complete nonsense.

To me, what Daniel 9:24 says is that a continuous 70 week time period was given in which to fulfill the six things listed there, so I see nothing anywhere in the prophecy to suggest that the 70 weeks would have any gaps between them at any point. Also, as I showed, I believe the NT is clear about what fulfilled those six things listed in Daniel 9:24. We need to allow the NT to shed light on the OT prophecies for us whenever possible.

JulieB67 · May 13, 2025

Jamdoc said:
the paralambano is the same root as used in John 14

This does not mean anyone is raptured to Heaven though. Satan and his gang will arrive before Christ returns and he will receive many unto himself. When Christ returns he will receive us unto himself.

Jamdoc said:
to receive unto the place He prepares for us is not really in line with the idea of we go up to meet Jesus and then come right back down to Armageddon.

I never said it was.

Jamdoc said:
But they do wind up in heaven after the 6th seal, where the signs Jesus gave as being immediately after the tribulation happen. They are before the throne of God in Revelation 7, wearing clothes and holding objects in their hands (IE they have bodies), In Revelation 15, they're carrying harps, again, bearing objects, I don't think non-corporeal. In Revelation 19 it's explicit that they are people in heaven, and wearing clothes.

All 3 places unlike the 5th seal, where they are described as souls, they are not described as souls, and they are doing things that people with bodies do.
the 6th seal contains the signs for the end of tribulation, so that is enduring till the end.

I'm of the belief that the seals are an outline of the entire tribulation period. Because they are not actions, they are seals -stamps in the Greek.

For example this is the same event,

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

Douggg · May 13, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
So, I believe the end of the 70th week is when the gospel started going to the Gentiles since the purpose of the 70th week in terms of confirming the new covenant in relation to Israel had been accomplished at that point.

Since you believe that the 70th week is over, complete, what about the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the destruction of Gog's army ? Ezekiel 39 has Jesus's Second Coming in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Here is the breakdown of Ezekiel 39 (I posted this also to keras in another thread of his, titled "The Holy Peoples and the Treaty")....

Ezekiel 39:1-6, the destruction of Gog's army.

Ezekiel 39:9 the seven years that follow are the same seven years of Daniel 9:27 which the prince that come, anointed as the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah (becoming the Antichrist) will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - it is not a peace treaty, which so many think, basing their reasoning on Daniel 8:25 that the person destroys many by peace.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 at the end of the seven years, will be the feast on the armies that will attempt to make war on Jesus and His army. Corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18. Read it.

The kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army. Read Revelation 19:19 as that verse validates it.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having just executed judgement on the heathen (the nations of the world other than Israel). At His Second Coming.

Ezekiel 39:22 the Jews will acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord their God from then and forward. (They actually turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in middle of the 7 years, Revelation 12:10.)

Ezekiel 39:24, Jesus explains the reason for the Jews' blindness down through the past two thousand years toward Him. And why subsequently they went into captivity to the nations around the world beginning in 70 ad.

Ezekiel 39:25-29, Jesus will gather all the Jews scattered in the nations to the land of Israel. The gathering of the elect of Matthew 24:31. As God promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Read it.

Fisherking · May 13, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
I hope you don't preach often on eschatology because you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about in relation to that.

I can explain the whole book of Revelation in one post. You can't even get the simple things right brother, like the raptures timing, the 70th week, there is no way I heed a guy on Eschatology who can't get the simple things correct.

Spiritual Jew said:
I can't make any sense of what you're saying here at all. Why would He use global events that occurred before 70 AD to prove that what would happen in 70 AD was not the second coming?

Global Events that happen before the 70th week which IS END TIMES, see why I say above your understandings can not be trusted? Not knowing the 70th week is END TIME as in soon, throws you off, you can't even understand my points because you are locked into an untruth.

Spiritual Jew said:
This is nonsense. I thought you said Matthew 24:4-13 relates to 70 AD? But, you're saying verses 7 and 8 refer to the future? I can't make any sense at all out of what you're saying here.

Everything relates to the Disciples its basically a survival guide. So, if you are in Jesus place and have to teach the first century disciples how to survive, but mostly how to sure the church gets off the ground and survives, and you know all via God, then you need to tell them verses 4-6 (70 AD events) IS NOT THE END, and so after you tell them this you give them a DEMONSTRATION (Think CLASS ROOM) which shows them why 70 AD can not be THE END which is the 70th week to come (matters not that you think it has past). One would dop so by showing them all the things that must come to pass before the 70th week end can get here. Then you describe it as a Birth Pang, or a crescendo of events that must happen before the 70th week Tribulation falls upon mankind. Then you go right back into explaining things that must befall the Disciples.

Spiritual Jew said:
Above, you indicated that verses 7 and 8 relate to future events that occur but not indicate that the end has come yet, but now you are saying verses 4-13, which includes verses 7 and 8, are about the 70 AD events. I can't follow what you're saying at all because you're contradicting yourself.

Yes, this is simple stuff. Jesus was teaching the Disciples their plight and how to make the Church survive the first century Romans, so he needed to make 100% sure they understood 70 AD was not Jesus returning, so he shows BY EXAMPLE, why the 70 AD events CAN NOT BE his 2nd Coming, because THIS, THIS AND THIS must happen first.

Spiritual Jew said:
Only Jesus Christ can fulfill the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 that needed to be fulfilled by the end of the 70 weeks. For example, one of the things was to "make reconciliation for iniquity". Only Jesus could do that! And He did by shedding His blood and sacrificing Himself on the cross!

I have a old blog on this, you clearly are not hip on much of Eschatology brother.

Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

1. Finish the transgression (Israel rejection of God must be completed, they must repent)
2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins must stop, of course sin nature will continue for the 1000 year reign)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel must repent, not Jesus, we see 1/3 repent at the very end)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus rules over Mankind which brings in Everlasting Righteousness)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All Prophesy must be Fulfilled by the time Jesus starts reigning)
6. Anoint the most Holy (Some see this a the Holy Temple, I see this as Jesus being Anointed the King of kings and Lord of lords)

1. The Hebrew word used for transgression denotes revolt or rebellion. The Jewish people chose to reject God, many chose to stay in Babylon once they were freed. It also denotes their rejection of Jesus Christ. Jesus prophesied in Matthew 23:39 that the Jewish people would not see him again until they accepted him. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. So in order for Jesus to return, Israel has to repent of their rejection of God and Jesus, and Israel will open their hearts to the Messiah, as Paul, Isaiah and Zechariah (Zechariah 12:10) prophesied, among others.

2. This is fairly straightforward, willful sins can only end when the millennial reign starts, so by the time this 70 week decree is over, Jesus will have returned to set up his kingdom, ushering in the millennial kingdom where there will be no more willful sinning. Since the tribulation week is the last week of the 70 weeks decree, that makes perfect sense, as soon as the tribulation period ends, or the “time of Jacob’s trouble” ends, then “willful sins will also end”.

3. Israel has to be reconciled unto God before the 70 weeks have been fulfilled. There is no doubt that Jesus died for all of our sins, thus the atonement for sins has been made, but there is a conditional requirement for all of us to receive that atonement, we must accept Jesus as our Savior. When Israel accepts the Messiah Jesus, as their Messiah, then the atonement for sins will have been completed, and Israel will have been reconciled unto God, thereby ushering in the millennial kingdom.

4. This 70 week decree has to bring in everlasting righteousness, and we know this can not happen until Jesus sets up his Kingdom. This world has always had sin, and always will until Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings. By the time Daniels prophecy ends, it must usher in everlasting righteousness.

5. Seal up vision and prophecy, the word used here denotes to close up, meaning that before this 70th week can come to an end, all prophecy must be fulfilled or closed up. This will only happen when Israel accepts Jesus as their Messiah and he lands on Mt. Zion to rule over this wicked world with a rod of iron.

6. The very last goal that this 70 week prophecy has to usher in is the anointing of the most holy. The bible says most holy, many try to add holy place, but whether it is the temple being anointed, or Jesus Christ as Lord of Lord and Kings of Kings as I suspect, we know this must happen before the 70 weeks decree is fulfilled. And Jesus must return and rule on earth.

All six of these things have to happen before this prophecy is fulfilled. These are six spiritual goals that have to come to pass or this prophecy will not be finished or sealed up. We know these things have not come to pass yet, but we also know they are very near to happening, therefore watch, for Israel is now a nation again, and the world is against her, soon she will need her Messiah's (Jesus) help, then she will call upon him, and he will save her from this wicked world.

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The Prophesy is about the Children of Israel, not Jesus per se.

Spiritual Jew · May 14, 2025

Douggg said:
Since you believe that the 70th week is over, complete, what about the 7 years in Ezekiel 39:9 that will follow the destruction of Gog's army ? Ezekiel 39 has Jesus's Second Coming in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

Here is the breakdown of Ezekiel 39 (I posted this also to keras in another thread of his, titled "The Holy Peoples and the Treaty")....

Ezekiel 39:1-6, the destruction of Gog's army.

Ezekiel 39:9 the seven years that follow are the same seven years of Daniel 9:27 which the prince that come, anointed as the king of Israel, thought-to-be messiah (becoming the Antichrist) will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years of Deuteronomy 31:9-13 - it is not a peace treaty, which so many think, basing their reasoning on Daniel 8:25 that the person destroys many by peace.

Ezekiel 39:17-20 at the end of the seven years, will be the feast on the armies that will attempt to make war on Jesus and His army. Corresponds to Revelation 19:17-18. Read it.

The kings of the earth will gather their armies at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to prepare to make war on Jesus and His army. Read Revelation 19:19 as that verse validates it.

Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text having just executed judgement on the heathen (the nations of the world other than Israel). At His Second Coming.

Ezekiel 39:22 the Jews will acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord their God from then and forward. (They actually turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation in middle of the 7 years, Revelation 12:10.)

Ezekiel 39:24, Jesus explains the reason for the Jews' blindness down through the past two thousand years toward Him. And why subsequently they went into captivity to the nations around the world beginning in 70 ad.

Ezekiel 39:25-29, Jesus will gather all the Jews scattered in the nations to the land of Israel. The gathering of the elect of Matthew 24:31. As God promised in Deuteronomy 30:1-6. Read it.

So, you didn't address my points at all, but now you expect me to address yours. I have told you many times that is not how discussions work. Address my points first and then I'll address yours. I'm not interested in a one way discussion where I'm the only one who addresses any points that are made.

Spiritual Jew · May 14, 2025

Fisherking said:
I can explain the whole book of Revelation in one post. You can't even get the simple things right brother, like the raptures timing, the 70th week, there is no way I heed a guy on Eschatology who can't get the simple things correct.

You should look in the mirror because you are describing yourself here. You are wrong in every single thing that you are saying in this thread without exception. It's an incredible feat to be wrong about everything, but you have managed to pull it off.

Fisherking said:
Global Events that happen before the 70th week which IS END TIMES, see why I say above your understandings can not be trusted? Not knowing the 70th week is END TIME as in soon, throws you off, you can't even understand my points because you are locked into an untruth.

You do nothing but babble. Why should I take you seriously? You are clearly incapable of making a coherent argument. You're all talk with no exegesis of scripture to be found.

Fisherking said:
Everything relates to the Disciples its basically a survival guide. So, if you are in Jesus place and have to teach the first century disciples how to survive, but mostly how to sure the church gets off the ground and survives, and you know all via God, then you need to tell them verses 4-6 (70 AD events) IS NOT THE END, and so after you tell them this you give them a DEMONSTRATION (Think CLASS ROOM) which shows them why 70 AD can not be THE END which is the 70th week to come (matters not that you think it has past). One would dop so by showing them all the things that must come to pass before the 70th week end can get here. Then you describe it as a Birth Pang, or a crescendo of events that must happen before the 70th week Tribulation falls upon mankind. Then you go right back into explaining things that must befall the Disciples.

LOL. Have you never taken an English class? You have no idea how to communicate. You are incredibly long winded. Get to the point, man.

Fisherking said:
Yes, this is simple stuff. Jesus was teaching the Disciples their plight and how to make the Church survive the first century Romans, so he needed to make 100% sure they understood 70 AD was not Jesus returning, so he shows BY EXAMPLE, why the 70 AD events CAN NOT BE his 2nd Coming, because THIS, THIS AND THIS must happen first.

The things He talked about in Matthew 24:4-14 had nothing to do with 70 AD because they are GLOBAL things that would relate to a coming GLOBAL event, which 70 AD was not. He was answering the question about His coming and the end of the age in those verses and then He transition to talking about 70 AD in verses 15-22 before returning to talking about things related to His coming and the end of the age. Going back and forth in time like that was not unusual at all in Bible prophecy. You can see things like that in the books of Daniel and Isaiah and certainly in the book of Revelation as well.

Fisherking said:
I have a old blog on this, you clearly are not hip on much of Eschatology brother.

LOL. When do you plan on actually speaking coherently...brother? You are all talk. You bring nothing but indecipherable gibberish to the table.

Fisherking said:
Daniel's 70 Weeks Decree against Israel

In Daniel 9:24, Daniel prophesied that these six things must come to pass before this judgment against Israel would be fulfilled. Some think Jesus fulfilled all of these, most seem to think, as I do, that these things have not come to pass, and when they do that will be the end of the age.

And I gave my understanding of this, which you can't even be bothered to comment on. You expect me to address your points while you ignore mine. Did you learn that from Douggg?

Fisherking said:
1. Finish the transgression (Israel rejection of God must be completed, they must repent)
2. Make and end of sins (Willful sins must stop, of course sin nature will continue for the 1000 year reign)
3. To make reconciliation for iniquity (Israel must repent, not Jesus, we see 1/3 repent at the very end)
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness (Jesus rules over Mankind which brings in Everlasting Righteousness)
5. To seal up vision and prophecy (All Prophesy must be Fulfilled by the time Jesus starts reigning)
6. Anoint the most Holy (Some see this a the Holy Temple, I see this as Jesus being Anointed the King of kings and Lord of lords)

This is insane! Only Jesus can make reconciliation for iniquity, finish the transgression and make an end of sins (take away sins)! He is the most holy! You are butchering this verse horribly! You are acting as if the Israelites can do themselves what only Jesus can do! This is blasphemy! Israel cannot make reconciliation for themselves. Jesus did that for them long ago already. Individuals repent and accept what He did, not an entire nation. That verse is all about what Jesus did to bring about the opportunity for the Israelites to have their sins forgiven and have the hope of eternal life and everlasting righteousness.

Israel making reconciliation for their own iniquity? Nonsense!

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Douggg · May 14, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you didn't address my points at all, but now you expect me to address yours. I have told you many times that is not how discussions work. Address my points first and then I'll address yours. I'm not interested in a one way discussion where I'm the only one who addresses any points that are made.

What do you mean address your points ? You explained your rationale.... and conclusions.

I am asking, given your conclusions, what about Ezekiel 39 - there are 7 years in that chapter that fit between the Gog/Magog event and Jesus's Second Coming ? Those 7 years indicate that your rationale and conclusion that the 70th week has been fulfilled is incorrect.

Thus, there is no reason to address your points.

Douggg · May 14, 2025

Douggg · May 14, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
So, this is a prophecy that is related to Israel in particular even though we know, of course, that Jesus didn't die only for the sins of Israel. I believe that Christ's ministry, His death, His resurrection, and the preaching of the gospel of Christ first in Israel all were part of confirming the new covenant to Israel.

It does not say "new" covenant in Daniel 9:27, but "the" covenant. It also does not say that the messiah confirms "the" covenant. But the prince that shall come.

The prince that shall come, who becomes the Antichrist, king of Israel thought-to-be messiah will confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 years cycle that Moses stipulated in Deuteronomy 31:9-13. There is no 7 years associated with any other covenant in the text of the bible.

At the conclusion of the 7 years, Jesus returns, and the 1000 year millennium begins.

Fisherking · May 14, 2025

Spiritual Jew said:
Israel making reconciliation for their own iniquity? Nonsense!

Israel like YOU or ME can only repent when we accept Jesus, Israel must repent, ISRAEL MUST REPENT, not Jesus. Jesus died 2000 years ago for our sins, but I was atoned in 1984, when I accepted Jesus, not in 1964 when I was born

1. Finish the transgression (can Jesus finish or STOP Israel from sinning? NO, Israel still has to repent, they had an Animal Sacrifice that also purged their sins, but they still rebelled, no matter if God forgives or not He will not forgive willful sins of people who plan on sinning again, then confessing like Catholics do.

No use replying to the rest because you are not a serious person on Eschatology and you do nothing but LOL, LOL, LOL. Its not funny stuff to me. People who do this can't put forth a good argument and thus when they get defeated on a point they turn to LOL...........or other quips that are a waste of time for me.

The prophesy is about Israel needing to repent and thus being chastised until they do repent.

You clearly do not understand prophesy. We get THREE MARKERS in this prophesy, THE WALL, Jesus' Death and THE Agreement or Covenant.

Has Israel repented NO...........It's not even a hard prophetic utterance. Doing an Exegesis on Dan. 11 & 12 was hard stuff, this is easy stuff. Whenever I a person who doesn't understand the 70th week has yet to come I know they will never understand anything about Eschatology.

Douggg · May 14, 2025

Fisherking said:
1. Finish the transgression (can Jesus finish or STOP Israel from sinning? NO, Israel still has to repent, they had an Animal Sacrifice that also purged their sins, but they still rebelled, no matter if God forgives or not He will not forgive willful sins of people who plan on sinning again, then confessing like Catholics do.

I think the transgression being referred to is the transgression of Daniel's people to the Mt. Sinai covenant that ended up in their going into Babylonian captivity.

Daniel 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

I think the return of the Jewish people back to Israel from Babylonian captivity finished the penalty of the transgression.

That still leaves other things to be accomplished in the 70 weeks.
to make an end of sins
to make reconciliation of iniquity
to bring in everlasting righteousness
to seal up the vision and prophecy
to anoint the most Holy.

Each of those could be debated, item by item. But I think, collectively, the 70 weeks are still unfulfilled. As the 70th week deals with the prophecy events of the end times time frames stated in the bible.

Jamdoc · May 14, 2025

JulieB67 said:
This does not mean anyone is raptured to Heaven though. Satan and his gang will arrive before Christ returns and he will receive many unto himself. When Christ returns he will receive us unto himself.

Except again, Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19 all contain saints being in heaven. Not on Earth. They are described doing things that people with bodies do.

JulieB67 said:
I never said it was.

Well it's the general idea behind the post trib "rapture" is that people go up to the clouds, meet Jesus coming down, and go right back down to Earth to Armageddon.
Except there are scriptural contradictions, such as people being in heaven in Revelation 7, 15, and 19, and Isaiah 63 having Jesus tread the winepress of His wrath alone. That means there must be a time when we are not on Earth, but He is.

Isaiah 63:

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.
5 And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
6 And I will tread down the people in mine anger, and make them drunk in my fury, and I will bring down their strength to the earth.

So Jesus comes to Earth, and there are no faithful left. Either they have 100% been martyred, or they were raptured. Either Paul was wrong about there being people alive and remaining when Jesus comes.. or they're in heaven, and Jesus is on Earth and nobody on Earth but His enemies to trample.

JulieB67 said:
I'm of the belief that the seals are an outline of the entire tribulation period. Because they are not actions, they are seals -stamps in the Greek.

For example this is the same event,

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

Revelation 16:20 "And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found."

True but there's another thing involved.

Revelation 6:17 is the declaration that God's wrath has come, but then Revelation 7, the Angels that were given charge to harm the Earth are stayed until the 144000 are sealed. There's the 144,000, there's the great multitude in heaven, worshiping God on the throne and the Lamb.

Then there's the 7th seal, and after the 7th seal there's the 7 trumpets.

So either the trumpets are sequential after the seals, or the 7th seal is.. nothing.
God's day of wrath is come, the angels are told to hold their attack, the 7th seal is loosed.. and then nothing? Anticlimactic.
If the 7 trumpets are sequential after the 7th seal, then it makes sense the angels that are charged with harming the Earth and told to hold back until the sealing, hold back, the 7th seal is loosed, they get the trumpets, and then they harm the Earth.

Revelation 14 has Jesus on the clouds the first reaping I interpret to be the rapture as they're not put into the winepress, but the 2nd reaping is, then there's the bowls.

I do have a repeat starting at Revelation 12, but I don't further break it down because the bowls seem to be contingent on the Mark of the Beast from Revelation 13. The trumpets are contingent on the sealing of the 144000 in Revelation 7. But the bowls don't seem contingent on anything from the trumpets, which seems to be a repeat of the same time period. But I can't break it down into more than 2 narratives because of the contingencies mentioned.

So for me it's easy to see the seals and Revelation 12/13 being actions on Earth, by men and Satan, that God has "unsealed" they were previously restrained but no longer restrained. But from the 6th seal (technically the 7th, as I believe the silence in Heaven is Jesus doing something that most people do not expect: Leaving heaven without them), and Revelation 14:14 and on, Jesus has come back and the wrath of God happens after that.

But in either way, I can't buy the trumpets and bowls as being "tribulation" Tribulation is religious persecution.

keras · May 14, 2025

Jamdoc said:
Revelation 7, Revelation 15, and Revelation 19 all contain saints being in heaven. Not on Earth. They are described doing things that people with bodies do.

It is simply not correct to think the multitude of people that John sees, Rev 7:9; are in heaven.
John was in heaven, viewing a preview of earthly scenes.

Those who cry out to God, in Rev 6:11. Rev 15 & 19, are the martyrs killed by the 'beast'. Proved by Revelation 15:2b
Their souls are placed under the Altar in heaven, but they do not live as such. Either God allows them to cry out, or what they do, is just allegorical and Written as a message to us, now at the edge of all the end times events.

Jamdoc · May 14, 2025

keras said:
It is simply not correct to think the multitude of people that John sees, Rev 7:9; are in heaven.
John was in heaven, viewing a preview of earthly scenes.

Those who cry out to God, in Rev 6:11. Rev 15 & 19, are the martyrs killed by the 'beast'. Proved by Revelation 15:2b
Their souls are placed under the Altar in heaven, but they do not live as such. Either God allows them to cry out, or what they do, is just allegorical and Written as a message to us, now at the edge of all the end times events.

They're before the throne of God. That's in heaven. Earth is His footstool.

they are also directly worshiping God on the throne, and the Lamb. 2 distinct persons. God the Father (God on the Throne) and God the Son (the Lamb).

the People in heaven in Revelation 19.. worship God on the throne (God the Father)...... but are not worshiping the Lamb.

Does Matthew 24 describe the rapture?

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

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Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Watching and Praying Always

Amillennialist

Well-Known Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Amillennialist

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Active Member

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

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