the Roman King

Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ [490 years minus 3.5 years] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place. [Christ's death would bring an end to Jewish Sin under their Temple worship.]
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem [457 BC] until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes [the 1st Coming of Christ], there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens’ [70 Weeks of years]. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble [49 years of restoring Jerusalem and temple worship roughly in the time of Nehemiah]. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens’ [after 483 years], the Anointed One [Christ] will be put to death and will have nothing [Christ's Kingdom did not come immediately]. The people of the ruler who will come [the Roman King of the 4th and last of 4 Kingdoms in the Mediterranean region] will destroy the city and the sanctuary [Jerusalem and the Temple worship]. The end will come like a flood [the Roman Army will destroy Jerusalem and the Temple]: War will continue until the end [an age-long desolation of Israel], and desolations have been decreed. 27 He [the Roman King] will confirm a covenant with many [Israel] for one ‘seven’ [the Roman King will unconsciously fulfill God's promise to bring Messiah to his place of destiny]. In the middle of the ‘seven’ [this final "Week" was fulfilled as only a "Half-Week"] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering [The Roman King will terminate temple worship.]. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation [the pagan Roman Army will lay siege to and destroy Jerusalem], until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [the Roman King is finally ended with the destruction of the "Little Horn" of Dan 7].

Obviously, the brackets are my insertions to reflect my interpretation of the passage. You can consider your own "insertions" as possible interpretations.

Daniel saw future things through the prism of 4 kings, who represented, generally, 4 great kingdoms on earth that impacted the Mediterranean region. It was here that events prepared for the history of the modern world leading eventually to the Kingdom of Christ. In Dan 2 and Dan 7 the 4th Kingdom figures prominently, with the 4th King representing this Kingdom at various stages of its development.

I believe the 4th Kingdom was the Roman Empire, and Daniel describes in chapter 9 some of what this King would do at different stages of its imperial development. It would essentially be in agreement, unconsciously, with the Covenant God made with Israel, to supply a crucified Messiah that brings to an end a long period of temple worship.

2 Thes 2.3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed [the "Little Horn" of Dan 7, the Antichrist], the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple [in Christendom], proclaiming himself to be God.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? [Paul lived in the Roman Empire, and would not openly divulge that the Roman King would be the Antichrist.] 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time [The Roman King himself holds the Empire together until it breaks up into 10 states.]. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back [the Roman King] will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way [the Emperor is temporarily removed]. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed [the Antichrist], whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

After Messiah was put to death by the Roman King a later Roman King destroyed the temple, desolating Jerusalem and the nation Israel for the entire NT age. Ultimately, this King would become the "Little Horn" spoken of in ch. 7 and would be terminated, freeing Israel from the bondage of punishment.

This 4th Kingdom, the Roman Empire, was therefore integral in shaping the future modern world because it would preside over a government that keeps things intact, politically, until, as Dan 7 suggests, it breaks up into 10 states. The Kingdom, originally, developed two distinct sections, the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western Roman Empire. And at different times both sections devolved into a number of distinct states which will eventually comprise a restored Roman Empire under the Antichrist, the "Little Horn" of Dan 7.

Jesus said that the Kingdom of God, the Theocracy, would be taken from Israel and given to another nation worthy of it. This was, I believe, the Roman Empire, which converted to Christianity under Theodosius, giving the Roman Empire cohesion to last throughout the present age.

However, as we are told in ch. 7, this imperial entity would break up into a set of states, in both Eastern and Western Europe, until the Little Horn reconsolidates them under himself, instead of under Christ. He will "take his seat in God's temple, proclaiming himself God." That "temple" is not a literal, physical temple, but God's place within Christendom, which is "God's Temple."

keras said:

Jesus said:.......I will give the Kingdom to the nation, [people group] who produce the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, fidelity, gentleness and self control. Galatians 5:22-26

THIS personifies the Roman Empire?

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I notice you replaced "nation" with "people group." Do you think Jesus was referring to an actual political "nation" or simply an "ethnicity" or "minority?" I think a "kingdom" and a "nation" is used for what we see today as empires, along with kingdoms and nations.

For example, in Dan 2 and 7 we see 4 kingdoms emerge, which we know fit the definition of "empires." So the words "kingdom," "nation," and "empire" can be virtually synonymous, depending on the context.

keras said:

How could the Words of Jesus in Matthew 21:43.....a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof; mean anything other than the Christian peoples?
Who, as we are told in Rev 5:9-10 and 1 Peter 2:9-10, consist of peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language?

Many Prophesies say how we Christians are now scattered around the world, but soon to become one nation in all of the Holy Land.
Only born again believers, circumcised in their hearts, confessing faith, with true repentance, like the Ethiopian eunuch, can become members of the worldwide Christian nation, by full immersion Baptism as he and Jesus were. A public declaration of their commitment.

So the established Churches [I capitalize Churches as they are known entities- bricks and mortar] cannot claim to be the congregation [ecclesia] of God. It is only every individual who is: Crucified with Jesus and the life they now live is not their life, but that of Jesus who lives within them…., Galatians 2:20, who are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

They are people from every tribe, race, nation and language, Revelation 7:9 All the faithful Christ following people, to whom the Promises and Blessings of God come to and those who will finally fulfil God’s desire for a nation, divided into 12 groups; they will produce the fruit of being His witnesses and the Light for the other nations. Matthew 21:43, Matthew 5:14, Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8

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I don't know abut the Church being "divided into 12 groups"--where do you get that? It sounds like you're confusing the nation Israel with the international Church, which you want to describe as if it is the Israeli "nation?"

But I do agree that the nation to which God gave the Kingdom of God refers ultimately to Christian peoples. It's just that you're skipping over the process God used to get there. God has to begin with a promised nation in order to achieve a promised people. He begins with a mixed theocracy in order to achieve a truly Christian group of people within that nation.

God began with the Roman Kingdom, or Empire, which he is here calling a "nation." God begins with a political entity, which includes the people, of course. And then the people become Christian when they accept the gift of God's theocracy.

Obviously, a nation includes both true believers and false believers, even after the nation has become Christian. The nation, in adopting a Christian constitution or a Christian government, in effect becomes a nation receiving the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God is realistic and pragmatic. It does not expect the entire nation to be fully and truly Christian. God just expected nations like Israel and the Roman Empire to receive the Kingdom of God as a people, and let individuals themselves decide who is purely Christian in form and who is Christian in substance.

There will always be nominal Christians in a Christian nation, as well as true Christians. But it is the "nation" that God begins with and has promised, in order to achieve the true individal Christians. You should not, I think, ignore the promise of a "nation" before jumping ahead to the polished product, ie individual Christians composing the true Church.

keras said:

The Bible is also very clear that only faithful believers will be citizens of the new nation in the Middle East. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 62:1-5
They will gather in Jerusalem and Jesus will stand on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1-5 and divide the peoples into 12 groups, selecting 12,000 from each group to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom. Isaiah 66:18-21
They will be the Holy people of God, in the Holy Land, as Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7 tell us. Jew and Gentile, as Jeremiah 50:4-6 says.

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That is what you believe, and that is what you teach. But it isn't so clear to me.

Eze 20.38 I will purge you of those who revolt and rebel against me. Although I will bring them out of the land where they are living, yet they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

Israel has been purged of troublemakers many times in the ancient past without leaving the people only faithful believers. In the wilderness, rebels were purged, but then later more had to be purged. Therefore, a purge does not require a final purging, leaving only a completely faithful people.

Isa 62.4 No longer will they call you Deserted, or name your land Desolate. But you will be called Hephzibah, and your land Beulah.

Ultimately, God will have only reborn, glorified Christians. But the prophecy of the salvation of the nation Israel, and even of the nations of the world, never required that they be glorified prematurely. We know that because Israel entered into a kind of marriage covenant under the Law and became God's People only to later be called "Not God's People."

Hos 1.9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

If you'e to continue to argue that the Church is the "real Israel," and therefore has to become "12 tribes" as in the 144,000, then I think you're making theological statements without any substantial biblical basis for them. The Church is not called "Israel."

The only place that it may seem to do so is so rare that it cannot present an established doctrine as fact. And those few places where it may seem to do so can be shown that "Israel" is *not* being used as a term for the entire Church, but only for Israel proper.

But if that's what your argument is based on, I find your assertions less than clear and lacking in substance. If you lack a biblical basis we have no basis to argue the points.

keras said:

The Church is Israel:
Just as the Gentile Ruth, an ancestor of Israel's Messiah: Matthew 1:5-16, could say to the Israelite Naomi: thy people shall be my people, and thy God my God. Ruth 1:16, so Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel. Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12-19, Galatians 3:29

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We all know that ancient Israel took proselytes into their religion. All nations take in some immigrants, assuming they can assimilate into their culture. They are not to become "nations" with a nation. Minorities are a legitimate part of the citizenry of a national state.

This did not mean that Israel came to be redefined as a "Gentile/Jewish nation." It has always been a Jewish nation, peopled prominently and primarily by those originating from the Jewish culture, and therefore, from Jewish ancestry. Converted minorities simply merge into the Jewish population.

Even a melting pot like the U.S., who has many people flowing into our country from a multitude of other countries, remains predominantly and primarily an English-speaking country. It's majority is of Anglo-Saxon, German, and other White heritage. But the Constitution is originating from the English tradition.

Admitting that there are immigrants in the U.S. in large numbers in no way causes the U.S. to be renamed something else. Neither does a Jewish "Israel" get redefined as a mixed Jewish/Gentile people simply because of the addition of a few Gentile proselytes. You are using false logic here.

keras said:

That is: all genetic Jews in the church remain members of Judah or Benjamin, the tribes they were born into. Romans 11:1 And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel and so will be assigned into its tribes, as per: Ezekiel 47:21-23, Isaiah 66:21 and as seen by John in Revelation 7:9

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You are confusing the *origins* of the name "Jew," which stemmed from the fact the southern Kingdom of Judah provided the initial group behind the Persian restoration . The northern tribes, after the Assyrian Captivity, either merged into their nations of exile or they later joined other Jewish groups in exile.

The fact the southern tribe of Judah provided the main initial group returning to the land of Israel after the Babylonian Captivity does not mean they were all originally from the tribe of Judah. Many from the northern tribes had been moving to Judah to be within distance of worshiping at Jerusalem, as the Law required. These were religious people who did not want to be associated with the worship of false gods in their own tribal areas.

So the people associated with Judah who returned as "Jews" were not really just from the tribe of Judah, but were actually a conglomeration of people from all 12 tribes. As I said, the promise to the 12 tribes was that they would become a nation, with all 12 tribes being given acces to the covenant being dispensed in Jerusalem.

That is what I believe the 144,000 are all about in the vision in Rev 7 and 14. They are a picture of the Jewish fulfillment for the nation, as something climaxing millennia of aspirations for all Jews. They do not remain tribes, which today is impossible. Rather, they represent in the *nation* the equal hope that is now being fulfilled in our day in the form of the Jewish nation.

keras said:

So: the entire church represents the 12 tribes of Israel. This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved by the New Covenant, which will be made only with the Israel of God. Hebrews 8:10

John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church. God knows who His people are, Amos 9:9, and every believer will be placed in the tribe suited to their abilities and characteristics. Revelation 7:9-14

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are ethnic Jews, Acts 22:3 or ethnic Gentiles, Romans 16:4b, have become spiritually-circumcised Israelites, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus. Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13

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You are applying a dualism that is not a part of NT theology. We are not told that OT truth for Israel is now applied to the Jewish-Gentile Church as if the Church is now named "Israel" with "12 Tribes." This is your concoction, and certainly not what is written, explicitly, in the Scriptures.

Where, for example, do you find the Holy Spirit saying, through the Scripture writers, "the Church is Israel and consists of 12 tribes?" You won't find it!

And so, you're creating your own theology, which is fine if you admit it is theoretical and speculative, because the Scriptures simply don't say that. At best they would have to infer it.

keras said:

The books of James and Peter are addressed to the twelve tribes, which is the same as addressing people in the church, people with faith in Christ , James 1:3, that is: Christians, people who have been born again in Jesus and who anticipate His Return.

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Well yes, these are those rare passages that sound as if Peter and James are calling the Church "Israel." And I can understand that. I just happened to think that they were addressing Jewish Christians, and thus referencing ideal Israel as it should be and must become one day. Since these examples are rare, I don't think they meet the requiriement for establishing a biblical theology.

keras said:

All those in the church, from every tribe, race, nation and language, are spiritually Abraham's seed, by their faith. Galatians 3:29 And Abraham's seed is Israel. Isaiah 41:8-10 So the entire church membership are Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16

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Non sequitur reasoning is being employed here! Yes, Israel and all nations casting their vote for Christ are Abraham's "seed." But that does not mean that all such nations are "Israel!"

keras said:

This literally means we are the ‘Overcomers for God’, or ‘God’s Victorious people’. Seen in each of the seven Church’s of Revelation and in Isaiah 56:1-8

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Again, this is non sequitur reasoning. The term "Israel" refers to "soldier of God," and yet it can refer to an individual, a nation, or to any particular nation acting as a soldier of God. It does not mean that all who are soldiers of God must be "Israel."

keras said:

Not just the Jews in the church, but also the Gentiles in the church, are all spiritually Abraham's seed of promise as Isaac was and as Jesus is the one and only true Seed. And so the peoples of the church, Jews and those from every race, nation and language, every faithful believing Christian is an heir of all the as yet, unfulfilled promises made by God to Israel in all of the Bible: Romans 8:16-18, Ephesians 1:11-14

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We are not questioning whether Abraham has spiritual children among other nations than just Israel. We all know that. It does not contribute to your argument that the Jewish-Gentile Church is "Israel."

keras said:

Zechariah 8:7-8 The Lord says: I am going to rescue My people from wherever they are in the world and I will bring them back into the holy Land, to Jerusalem. They will be My people and I shall be their God in truth and righteousness.

The Prophesies are clear; it is a people that God foreknew whom He will rescue, redeem, restore and forgive their sins and misdeeds. None other than the Northern tribes of the House of Israel, scattered among the nations and ‘lost’ to our knowledge, but not to God.
Now; they are the bulk of the faithful Christian peoples.

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Paul uses the argument that if God can rescue Israel from a fallen state then He can also forgive Gentiles if they repent of their paganism. On the other hand, if God has forgiven Gentiles who have repented of their paganism to become Christians, then God can forgive Jews also who repent of their rejection of Christianity.

None of this has a thing to do with whether the entire Jewish-Gentile Church should be named "Israel."
Sorry, we have to disagree on this one...

keras said:

Yes, it is a longstanding disagreement.

One Bible passage that proves the continued separation of Judah and Israel, is: Ezekiel 4:4-6.
There, the 2 Houses are given different time periods of exile from the holy Land. Judah's was up, partly at least; in 1948.
But the 390 year period for Israel, remains unfulfilled, because it was multiplied by 7 times = 2730 years. Leviticus 26:18
The House of Israel was conquered 722 BC, under Shalmaneser, but their final exile was not until about 710 BC. Under Sargon 2.
Therefore; the decreed exile of Israel is only just over now, so we Christian peoples will be able to move into our heritage as soon as the Lord has cleared and cleansed all of the Holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

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It is interesting to try to explain Eze 4.4-6 and the periods of punishment represented for Israel and Judah. I personally accept that it did not mean to depict the literal number of years apportioned to both kingdoms. Rather, Ezekiel bore a representation of both kingdoms, with an eye towards the previous Egyptian captivity of 390 + 40 years, or 430 years.

Exo 12.40 Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years

Only 40 years were assigned to Judah, who were seen as the ones who would come out of Egypt to inherit the Promised Land. The 390 years given to Israel may have represented their eternal Egyptian bondage, never obtaining the inheritance of the Promised Land, except through Judah.

I think the focus was intended to be on the fact Ezekiel had to bear the sins and punishment of Israel, as Christ, the Son of Man, did. It was not on a literal prediction of the time of the restoration of these two kingdoms, since only Judah, or the Southern Kingdom, returned.

keras said:

This is a straight out rejection of Bible Prophecy.
That the House of Israel has not returned yet, in no way means they won't. Isaiah 11:11-13

Do people just ignore the amazing fact of there having just passed, the exact 2730 years since the exile of the Northern ten tribes of Israel?
Also the 40 years decreed for Judah was increased by 7 X7 for their continued sins. Leviticus 26:21 & 27 = 1960 years.
AD 70, the Roman conquest + 1960 = 2030AD, which is 2000 years of the Church age, the probable date when Jesus will Return and the rejoining of Judah and Israel.

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No, it is not a rejection of Bible Prophecy. It is a rejection of *your version* of Bible Prophecy. Do you really think God gave a special code just for Keras? What practical value is that? Did God make something so abstract that only wizardry and cleverness can figure it out?

When God gave timed prophecies they had practical value. The 40 years in the Wilderness gave hope to the next generation. The 70 years in exile gave impetus to Jeremiah's call to prepare for a return when Jewish worship had appeared dead.

But trying to figure out a very distant time using a particular formula seems a bit over the top. What value is there in this, except to provide a basis for your own brand of eschatology? There is no practical value in providing an exact date.

And it lends to people trying to anticipate a date and time that over and over again has provided false hope up until the prophecy fails. But until it is proven wrong it seems to hold credibility.

However, we were told not to put too much credence in knowing the times and seasons. It's much better to just live for the Lord each day. In that way we'll always be ready for judgment.

As I said before, the hope of national salvation was channeled through the return of Judah, who contained members of all 12 tribes. Israel's national hope has been given through the Jewish People. This is a fact of history. It is impossible to restore the ancient tribes.