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Cosmologists intrigued by signs the universe might stop expanding; influence of dark energy may be weakening

sjastro

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I was already aware of the motion of the Earth in Simon Shack’s The Tychos simulation. His simulation model actually started me thinking several years ago about how the geocentric model has to be equivalent to the heliocentric model. My preferred model though is the neo-Tycho model of Luka Popov.

Reference: Popov L 2013 Newtonian-Machian analysis of Neo-tychonian model of planetary motions Eur. J. Phys. 34 383 (Preprint arXiv:1301.6045v2)
So why did you waste my time going through Shack’s nonsense when this is not your preferred model and by your own admission the Earth exhibits motion which does not make it a geocentric model.
To a Capernican fan It is required to be “not a real effect”. Otherwise their theory would be falsified!

I found the source for what both you and Simon Shack were referring to. To quote the keepers of the data (ESA European Space Agency):



D = 1/parallax has a real meaning when both positive and negative values are used. The absolute value is a real distance. It just means the left eye is used instead of the right in the popular analogy used in describing what parallax is. But you say half the data should be assumed useless because it’s negative? So it makes me wonder — how can half the data be ruled out for one reason or another, and not view the other half with suspicion? It seems to me heliocentricity is already baked into the interpretation of the data. How convenient is that when comparing of the two models?
The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies.

Gaia use QSO’s better known as quasars to calibrate the zero point for parallax since they are billions of light years away, well beyond the effective distance range for parallax measurements.
Since their parallax is zero, any measured movement resulting in positive or negative parallax calculations is due to systematic errors such as telescope alignment, thermal drift, or optical distortions, and statistical noise which are corrected for.

The major cause for negative parallax however is statistical noise which lowers the S/N ratio.
Later data release versions of Gaia (EDR3/DR3) have reduced negative parallaxes due to better data processing and longer observation baselines which have improved the S/N ratio. This indicates negative parallax is statistical in nature and not real.

The equation D = 1/parallax is only relevant if the parallax is real which is a non-zero positive value.
If parallax = 0 the D (distance) becomes infinitely large which is unrealistic as is the case for parallax < 0, where D becomes negative.
 
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sjastro

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So why did you waste my time going through Shack’s nonsense when this is not your preferred model and by your own admission the Earth exhibits motion which does not make it a geocentric model.

The rest of your post is full of inaccuracies.

Gaia use QSO’s better known as quasars to calibrate the zero point for parallax since they are billions of light years away, well beyond the effective distance range for parallax measurements.
Since their parallax is zero, any measured movement resulting in positive or negative parallax calculations is due to systematic errors such as telescope alignment, thermal drift, or optical distortions, and statistical noise which are corrected for.

The major cause for negative parallax however is statistical noise which lowers the S/N ratio.
Later data release versions of Gaia (EDR3/DR3) have reduced negative parallaxes due to better data processing and longer observation baselines which have improved the S/N ratio. This indicates negative parallax is statistical in nature and not real.

The equation D = 1/parallax is only relevant if the parallax is real which is a non-zero positive value.
If parallax = 0 the D (distance) becomes infinitely large which is unrealistic as is the case for parallax < 0, where D becomes negative.
Here is comparison table between Gaia DR2 and Gaia EDR3/DR3 which shows a significant reduction in negative parallax.

FeatureGaia DR2Gaia EDR3/DR3Improvement
Release DateApril 2018EDR3: December 2020
DR3: June 2022
-
Number of Sources~1.7 billion~1.8 billionSlight increase
Astrometric Precision0.02–0.7 mas (bright to faint stars)0.01–0.5 mas~30–50% better precision
Photometric PrecisionGood, but systematic errors presentImproved calibration and uniformityBetter photometry (especially G-band)
Parallax Systematic Error~0.03 mas (zero-point offset)~0.017 mas average (but color/mag dependent)Reduced offset; needs correction
Negative Parallax FractionNoticeable at low S/N (especially faint stars)Significant reduction in frequency and magnitudeImproved reliability
Signal-to-Noise (S/N)Lower, particularly for G > 18 mag~2× better S/N at faint magnitudesStronger astrometric solutions
Astrometric Solution Type5-parameter only (RA, Dec, parallax, proper motion)Same, but much more robust (less spurious solutions)More reliable at faint end
PhotometryG, BP, RP magnitudesSame bands, but better calibratedSmaller color biases
Astrophysical ParametersLimited (mainly in DR2)Many more parameters (full DR3)Radial velocities, variability, spectra
Source ClassificationEarly-stage (basic types)More sophisticated classification (DR3)Better star/galaxy/QSO separation
Known IssuesDuplicates, spurious sources commonStill some issues but reducedCleaner catalog
 
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awstar

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So why did you waste my time going through Shack’s nonsense when this is not your preferred model and by your own admission the Earth exhibits motion which does not make it a geocentric model.

Shack’s model is still a geocentric model. In his model, the earth is only moving at less than 1 km per hour around a fixed point and not 30 km per second around the sun. I thought hearing an alternative argument from someone other than a Bible believing Christian might carry more weight in your eyes.


Gaia use QSO’s better known as quasars to calibrate the zero point for parallax since they are billions of light years away, well beyond the effective distance range for parallax measurements.

Since their parallax is zero, any measured movement resulting in positive or negative parallax calculations is due to systematic errors such as telescope alignment, thermal drift, or optical distortions, and statistical noise which are corrected for.

This is good to know. Thanks for the lead.


The major cause for negative parallax however is statistical noise which lowers the S/N ratio.
Later data release versions of Gaia (EDR3/DR3) have reduced negative parallaxes due to better data processing and longer observation baselines which have improved the S/N ratio. This indicates negative parallax is statistical in nature and not real.

Negative parallax is a real phenomena. It’s a matter of geometric spheres and vectors, not astro-physics. It shows the relationship — between earth, the star of interest and a distant star on the imaginary Celestial Sphere at two different times. If the angle changes, either clockwise or counterclockwise, it indicates something moved. The earth, the star of interest, or the background star. It doesn’t say which one. That is up to the model.

regarding “The equation D = 1/parallax is only relevant if the parallax is real “ I agree whole heartedly.

I’m just saying there are models other than yours that suggest that negative parallax may very well indeed be pointing to what is real. And Simon Shack’s geocentric model explains why the data shows that roughly 25% the values are negative, 25% the values are positive and 50% are zero. It’s still a valid answer your original question of ”how the observation of stellar parallax is consistent with a stationary Earth"
 
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sjastro

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Shack’s model is still a geocentric model. In his model, the earth is only moving at less than 1 km per hour around a fixed point and not 30 km per second around the sun. I thought hearing an alternative argument from someone other than a Bible believing Christian might carry more weight in your eyes.
It is not a geocentric model, it is a variation of Tycho Brahe's model. The only objects that orbit the Earth are the Sun, Mars and Moon and the remaining planets orbit the Sun.
In a geocentric model all planets orbit the Earth.
This is good to know. Thanks for the lead.




Negative parallax is a real phenomena. It’s a matter of geometric spheres and vectors, not astro-physics. It shows the relationship — between earth, the star of interest and a distant star on the imaginary Celestial Sphere at two different times. If the angle changes, either clockwise or counterclockwise, it indicates something moved. The earth, the star of interest, or the background star. It doesn’t say which one. That is up to the model.

regarding “The equation D = 1/parallax is only relevant if the parallax is real “ I agree whole heartedly.
Negative parallax is not a real phenomena and
depends on the S/N ratio. In my last post it was reported there was a significant reduction in negative parallax numbers between the Gaia DR2 and EDR3/DR3 data which is based on larger S/N ratio.
If negative parallax was real it wouldn't simply disappear in the EDR3/DR3 data.

The other point is the negative parallax found when setting zero parallax in the quasar data. If this was real it would place quasars not much further than ~10,000 light years away which is the parallax limit, yet quasar spectral lines are considerably red shifted indicating very large distances at cosmological scales.
I’m just saying there are models other than yours that suggest that negative parallax may very well indeed be pointing to what is real. And Simon Shack’s geocentric model explains why the data shows that roughly 25% the values are negative, 25% the values are positive and 50% are zero. It’s still a valid answer your original question of ”how the observation of stellar parallax is consistent with a stationary Earth"
Where exactly did Shack come up with "data shows that roughly 25% the values are negative, 25% the values are positive and 50% are zero."? This is complete utter rubbish and indicates a considerable amount of cherry picking was involved.
 
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awstar

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It is not a geocentric model, it is a variation of Tycho Brahe's model. The only objects that orbit the Earth are the Sun, Mars and Moon and the remaining planets orbit the Sun.
In a geocentric model all planets orbit the Earth.
You say toe-mai-toe; I say toe-mah-toe

How do planets that orbit the sun -- and the sun orbits the earth -- not orbit the earth too? You better give me the source for your definition of geocentric.


sjastro Where exactly did Shack come up with "data shows that roughly 25% the values are negative, 25% the values are positive and 50% are zero."? This is complete utter rubbish and indicates a considerable amount of cherry picking was involved.​



I found the source for what both you and Simon Shack were referring to. To quote the keepers of the data (ESA European Space Agency):

Perhaps this is most easily appreciated by considering the 0.5 million QSOs appearing in Gaia DR2 for which parallax solutions have been made. Given that the true parallax for these sources is close to zero it is to be expected that for half of them the observed parallax (as solved for from the observations) is negative (where in the case of Gaia DR2 the fraction of negative parallaxes for QSOs is higher because of the negative parallax zero point).

Hence negative parallaxes represent perfectly valid measurements and can be included in analyses of the Gaia DR2 data.


 
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sjastro

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You say toe-mai-toe; I say toe-mah-toe

How do planets that orbit the sun -- and the sun orbits the earth -- not orbit the earth too? You better give me the source for your definition of geocentric.
Since you make the effort in posting nonsense on this sub forum such as hydroplate theory and this, do take the extra effort of finding out the definition of geocentricism. The planets are in their own separate orbits around the Earth.
“The geocentric model is a debunked theory that the Earth is the center of the universe, with the sun and planets revolving around it.”
Geocentric model: The Earth-centered view of the universe | Space
I found the source for what both you and Simon Shack were referring to. To quote the keepers of the data (ESA European Space Agency):
If you had bothered to read your own sources carefully the reference to 25% positive parallax, 25% negative parallax and 50% zero parallax applies to the Hipparcos -Tycho catalogue for ~2,000,000 stars not Gaia.
This assumes of course the information is accurate as not hyperbole as cranks are prone to doing.

Did it ever occur to Shack the effective radius for parallax measurements needs to be considered and negative and zero parallax values are due to stars falling outside this range.
The limiting apparent magnitude for stars in the Hipparcos-Tycho data is ~11.5 and the effective radius is 500 light years.
However the maximum distance a star detectable by Hipparcos is given by the formula:

m - M = 5 log₁₀ (d) - 5

For an average star like the Sun, with absolute magnitude M = 4.83 and apparent magnitude m = 11.5, the maximum distance d works out to approximately 2,000 light years.
So it’s not surprising stars with zero or negative parallax would mainly fall within the 500 – 2,000 light year range.

For Shack to then extrapolate these doubtful Hipparcos-Tycho results as a prediction for Gaia is complete nonsense as Gaia is a vastly advanced system with a parallax effective range up to 10,000 light years.
Gaia DR2 is old news but here is the data.

Total Gaia DR2 sources: ~1.7 billion.
Sources with parallax measurements: ~1.33 billion (five-parameter solutions).
Negative/zero parallaxes:
15% of sources (~199.5 million).


Once again negative and zero parallaxes are likely to have fallen outside the 10,000 light year limit.
 
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awstar

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Since you make the effort in posting nonsense on this sub forum such as hydroplate theory and this, do take the extra effort of finding out the definition of geocentricism. The planets are in their own separate orbits around the Earth.
“The geocentric model is a debunked theory that the Earth is the center of the universe, with the sun and planets revolving around it.”

Your definition uses the term "planets revolving around the" Earth. So the Tychosium simulator and its model still fulfills the requirements of being geocentric. However, your definition is in error because it added the word “debunked”

If you had bothered to read your own sources carefully the reference to 25% positive parallax, 25% negative parallax and 50% zero parallax applies to the Hipparcos -Tycho catalogue for ~2,000,000 stars not Gaia.
This assumes of course the information is accurate as not hyperbole as cranks are prone to doing.
...

Once again negative and zero parallaxes are likely to have fallen outside the 10,000 light year limit.


From what I can tell, based on your explanations and my conversations with chatGPT, they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold. By the way, chatGPT still uses the 25% negative parallax count for DR2 data.

It’s been an informative journey. Thanks for the tour.
 
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The Liturgist

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Your definition uses the term "planets revolving around the" Earth. So the Tychosium simulator and its model still fulfills the requirements of being geocentric. However, your definition is in error because it added the word “debunked”

It’s positively debunked. If the geocentric model were correct, then the orbital trajectories we use to get probes to Mars and the outer planets (and indeed the inner planets) based on their alignment relative to Earth to minimize transit times wouldn’t work. And if you’re going to deny the existence of interplanetary spaceflight and claim that the reams of data we have were a fabrication (when indeed it would take so much effort to fabricate this data as to be absurd; if we were to fabricate that we might as well fabricate other things, which we do not), then I can’t help you.

Our scientific model of the Universe does not threaten the Christian religion. It does pose insurmountable problems for Islam, which the Muslims just ignore, since Muhammed taught that the world was flat and the disappearance of objects at the horizon was an optical illusion, and furthermore the Quran records a trippy episode were someone named Dhu al-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great) travels to the westernmost extreme of the Earth and chills with the sun, who is resting in a pool at an oasis before returning to the East to illuminate the next day (really, read it). He also builds a wall to keep out Gog and Magog, as illustrated by this lovely Persian iconography (which rips off some elements of Orthodox Christian iconography and also shows influences from the iconography of the Manichaean religion founded in Persia):



Christianity, however, being an intelligent religion (that does not, for instance, condone polygamous marriage of adult men to 9 year old girls (indeed the early church, while baptizing polygamists, prohibited anyone from entering into a polygamous marriage and also disqualified polygamists and anyone who had been remarried from the priesthood and other holy orders, which remains the canon law in the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian churches) does not impose broken cosmologies upon its adherents.

Thus in the absence of a misguided religious motivation for heliocentrism which we saw in the initial reaction to the excellent work of Copernicus, but fortunately not so much in the later astrophysics of the universe (indeed, a Christian presbyter from the Roman Catholic Church originated the “Big Bang” theory based on Hubble’s observations), there is no reason to believe in geocentrism or other demonstrably false cosmologies. Right now our best guess about the cosmology of the universe is the Lambda-CDM model, but this is subject to revision, particularly since dark matter is theoretically by nature difficult to isolate, and in practice we haven’t been able to find it yet although there are some candidates, but when you have matter that only interacts with other matter gravitationally and perhaps via the electroweak force, naturally that’s going to be tricky to isolate.
 
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sjastro

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Your definition uses the term "planets revolving around the" Earth. So the Tychosium simulator and its model still fulfills the requirements of being geocentric. However, your definition is in error because it added the word “debunked”
Where do you think the term “Tychosium” comes from, it is from Tycho Brahe’s geoheliocentric model of the 16th century which stipulated the Earth was stationary, the Sun orbited the Earth, and the known planets of the time orbited the Sun.
Shack’s model doesn’t even qualify as a geoheliocentric model let alone a geocentric one as the Earth is not stationary in his model.

Since you use chatGPT go look up James Bradley’s discovery of the aberration of starlight in 1729 which not only provided the first direct observational evidence the Earth orbited the Sun but also a method to calculate its orbital speed of 30 km/s which is remarkably close to the modern value of 29.78 km/s.
From what I can tell, based on your explanations and my conversations with chatGPT, they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold. By the way, chatGPT still uses the 25% negative parallax count for DR2 data.

It’s been an informative journey. Thanks for the tour.
Frankly I find it very hard to believe chatGPT would state negative and zero parallaxes were pushed out instead of having fallen outside the threshold unless you structured your input in such a way to get the answer you were looking for.

When I asked to chatGPT to critique my previous post where I criticized Shack’s ideas it gave quite the opposite response.
Here is its unabridged response including its inability to handle mathematical equations in a readable format.

This comment is mostly accurate in its technical reasoning, though it could be expressed more clearly. Let’s evaluate it in parts:


1. Effective Radius for Parallax Measurements


"Did it ever occur to Shack the effective radius for parallax measurements needs to be considered and negative and zero parallax values are due to stars falling outside this range."

✅ Valid point.
Parallax measurements do become increasingly unreliable as distance increases due to the diminishing parallax angle. Zero or negative parallaxes often result from measurement uncertainty when the true parallax is very small—typically corresponding to very distant stars. This is not a physical impossibility, but a statistical artifact.


2. Hipparcos Limiting Magnitude and Effective Radius


"The limiting apparent magnitude for stars in the Hipparcos-Tycho data is ~11.5 and the effective radius is 500 light years."

Partially accurate.
The Hipparcos mission had a limiting magnitude around 12 for some stars but was most complete to ~9 mag. The idea of an "effective radius" is informal; it’s more accurate to say Hipparcos provided high-precision parallaxes (e.g. <1 mas error) mostly within a few hundred parsecs (~500–1000 light-years). So calling 500 light-years the "effective radius" is a reasonable simplification, though not formally defined.


3. Distance Modulus Calculation


"For an average star like the Sun, with absolute magnitude M = 4.83 and apparent magnitude m = 11.5, the maximum distance d works out to approximately 2,000 light years."

✅ Correct.
Using the distance modulus:

m−M=5log⁡10(d)−5m - M = 5 \log_{10}(d) - 5 11.5−4.83=5log⁡10(d)−5⇒log⁡10(d)=11.5−4.83+55=2.334⇒d≈2160 ly11.5 - 4.83 = 5 \log_{10}(d) - 5 \Rightarrow \log_{10}(d) = \frac{11.5 - 4.83 + 5}{5} = 2.334 \Rightarrow d \approx 2160 \text{ ly}
So the estimate of ~2,000 light-years is solid.


4. Range Where Negative Parallaxes Occur


"So it’s not surprising stars with zero or negative parallax would mainly fall within the 500 – 2,000 light year range."

Reasonable but Simplified.
Negative parallax values can occur at any distance due to random error, but are statistically more frequent when true parallax is close to zero (i.e. distant stars). The idea that most zero/negative parallaxes are in the 500–2,000 ly range is plausible for Hipparcos, because that’s where its measurements become very noisy—but exact bounds would need empirical confirmation.


5. Comparison to Gaia and Critique of Extrapolation


"For Shack to then extrapolate these doubtful Hipparcos-Tycho results as a prediction for Gaia is complete nonsense as Gaia is a vastly advanced system with a parallax effective range up to 10,000 light years."

✅ Fair criticism.
Gaia is orders of magnitude more precise than Hipparcos, with its limiting magnitude around G ~ 20.7, and can measure parallax with meaningful precision out to thousands of parsecs (and for some stars, beyond 10,000 light-years). Using Hipparcos results to forecast Gaia performance—especially regarding parallax reliability—is flawed unless carefully qualified.


6. Gaia DR2 Statistics


"Total Gaia DR2 sources: ~1.7 billion. Sources with parallax measurements: ~1.33 billion (five-parameter solutions). Negative/zero parallaxes: 15% of sources (~199.5 million)."

✅ Accurate.
These statistics match known Gaia DR2 figures. Around 15% of sources in Gaia DR2 have negative or effectively zero parallaxes due to noise and statistical spread.



Overall Assessment​

Strengths:
  • Good understanding of distance modulus and parallax error behavior.
  • Correct comparison between Hipparcos and Gaia capabilities.
  • Reasonable criticism of extrapolating low-quality data to predict outcomes in a superior mission.
Weaknesses:
  • Language is informal and slightly combative ("complete nonsense").
  • "Effective radius" is a bit ambiguous and could mislead.
  • Some statements are oversimplifications (e.g., exact range where negative parallaxes occur).
Would you like help rewriting this comment into a more precise and professional tone?
 
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Frankly I find it very hard to believe chatGPT would state negative and zero parallaxes were pushed out instead of having fallen outside the threshold unless you structured your input in such a way to get the answer you were looking for.

If one uses an older ChatGPT model like ChatGPT 3.5 there are methods one can use that will cause it to hallucinate or say whatever you want to say.

For that matter, you could probably get ChatGPT 4o to spit out inaccurate data by setting it up to formulate an argument in defense of the erroneous presupposition for some legitimate reason, like a fictional story about an alternate universe. After all, while ChatGPT will answer questions to the best of its ability, it is designed to satisfy user demands (up to a point - there are certain ethical lines it will not cross).
 
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sjastro

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If one uses an older ChatGPT model like ChatGPT 3.5 there are methods one can use that will cause it to hallucinate or say whatever you want to say.

For that matter, you could probably get ChatGPT 4o to spit out inaccurate data by setting it up to formulate an argument in defense of the erroneous presupposition for some legitimate reason, like a fictional story about an alternate universe. After all, while ChatGPT will answer questions to the best of its ability, it is designed to satisfy user demands (up to a point - there are certain ethical lines it will not cross).
I have been monitoring the progress of AI for the last 18 months and have found hallucinations are becoming increasing rare, there are still issues when AI provides a pictorial answer which looks more like psychotic art.

You can certainly manipulate AI to give an answer you want but the claim according to ChatGPT (assuming ChatGPT 4o) "they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold.", I have not been able to reproduce.

Are zero and negative parallaxes pushed out of the Tycho and DR2 data. Yes or No?
No. Zero and negative parallaxes are not pushed out of the Tycho or Gaia DR2 data—they are included and valid in the catalogs.
What are the reasons for this?

Zero and negative parallaxes are included in the Tycho and Gaia DR2 data because:

  1. Measurement Uncertainty: Parallax values are derived from fitting astrometric models to noisy observational data. Due to statistical noise and fitting errors, some results naturally yield zero or even negative values—especially for distant or faint stars where the parallax signal is weak.
  2. Statistical Completeness: Excluding negative or zero parallaxes would bias the dataset. Keeping them ensures that downstream analyses can apply proper statistical methods (e.g., Bayesian inference) to interpret uncertain distances.
  3. Astrometric Solution Output: The Gaia pipeline is designed to return the best-fit value from a least-squares solution. If the best fit is slightly negative, it is still mathematically valid, even if it doesn't correspond to a physical distance.
  4. User Responsibility: The Gaia mission provides raw measurements with uncertainties, not pre-interpreted distances. It is up to users to apply corrections or modeling to extract meaningful astrophysical quantities.

Would you like an example of how negative parallaxes are handled in distance estimation?
Explain how negative parallaxes are handled in distance estimation.

Sure. Here’s a clear explanation of how negative parallaxes are handled in distance estimation, and why they still carry useful information:




What is Parallax and Why Can It Be Negative?


Parallax (π\pi) is the apparent shift of a star’s position due to Earth’s orbit around the Sun. The distance dd in parsecs is traditionally estimated as:

d=1π(when π is in arcseconds)d = \frac{1}{\pi} \quad \text{(when \( \pi \) is in arcseconds)}
But this equation only works if π>0\pi > 0. However, Gaia and Tycho sometimes return zero or negative values, especially when the parallax signal is smaller than the noise.


This doesn’t mean the star is "behind infinity"—it means the data is too noisy for a clean inversion.




Why Are Negative Values Still Useful?


A negative parallax still contains information about the likelihood distribution of the true distance. Astronomers now use Bayesian statistical methods to estimate distances from noisy parallaxes, even negative ones.

Example:​

Suppose a star has:
  • Measured parallax: π=−0.2\pi = -0.2 milliarcseconds
  • Uncertainty: σ=0.3\sigma = 0.3 milliarcseconds
We don’t discard this value. Instead, we model the probability of true distance dd using:
  • A likelihood function (based on the measured parallax and uncertainty)
  • A prior distribution (e.g., that stars are more likely to be found at certain distances, like an exponentially decreasing space density)
The result is a posterior probability distribution for the true distance, which is positive and well-behaved.


Conclusion

Negative parallaxes are a natural outcome of noisy data and should not be thrown away. Instead, they are interpreted using statistical modeling, allowing astronomers to extract physically meaningful distance estimates while preserving the integrity of the dataset.

Would you like a plot or simulation showing how this Bayesian distance estimation works?
 
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awstar

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Where do you think the term “Tychosium” comes from, it is from Tycho Brahe’s geoheliocentric model of the 16th century which stipulated the Earth was stationary, the Sun orbited the Earth, and the known planets of the time orbited the Sun.
Shack’s model doesn’t even qualify as a geoheliocentric model let alone a geocentric one as the Earth is not stationary in his model.
I’m failing to understand your passionate point.

“Let it be understood at the outset that it makes no difference, from the point of view of describing planetary motion, whether we take the Earth or the Sun as the center of the solar system. Since the issue is one of relative motion only, there are infinitely many exactly equivalent descriptions referred to different centers – in principle any point will do, the Moon, Jupiter....So the passions loosed on the world by the publication of Copernicus’ book, De revolutionibus orbium caelestium libri VI, were logically irrelevant...” (Nicolaus Copernicus, 1973, p. 1 — Sir Fred Hoyle)

sjastro

Since you use chatGPT go look up James Bradley’s discovery of the aberration of starlight in 1729 which not only provided the first direct observational evidence the Earth orbited the Sun but also a method to calculate its orbital speed of 30 km/s which is remarkably close to the modern value of 29.78 km/s.

aberration is not parallax, but that being said, his calculation of Earth’s orbital speed is to be expected if that’s the model he chooses to use — according to Hoyle (pun intended)

sjastro

Frankly I find it very hard to believe chatGPT would state negative and zero parallaxes were pushed out instead of having fallen outside the threshold unless you structured your input in such a way to get the answer you were looking for.

When I asked to chatGPT to critique my previous post where I criticized Shack’s ideas it gave quite the opposite response.
Here is its unabridged response including its inability to handle mathematical equations in a readable format.

What I said was: “From what I can tell, based on your explanations and my conversations with chatGPT, they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold.”

chatGPT did not state they were pushed out — it was me said that. I did not structure my input in such a way to get the answer I was looking for. In fact, chatGPT said pretty much the same thing that it said to your query. Including:

sjastro quoting chatGPT​

Astronomers now use Bayesian statistical methods to estimate distances from noisy parallaxes, even negative ones.



We don’t discard this value. Instead, we model the probability of true distance dd using:
A likelihood function (based on the measured parallax and uncertainty)
A prior distribution (e.g., that stars are more likely to be found at certain distances, like an exponentially decreasing space density)
The result is a posterior probability distribution for the true distance, which is positive and well-behaved.


It did however say something about the difference of a "Nieve statistical solution" (no bias) and a "Bayesian statistical solution" (bias added). From this I concluded that the ones who determine the Bayesian a prior parameters for DR3 have already assumed that because the earth revolves around the sun, negative numbers are not well-behaved. chatGPT helped me see this, even though it’s obvious that chatGPT itself (that is, chatGPT’s keepers) presupposes that the earth revolves around the sun.

In other words, to use stellar parallax to falsify the geocentric model is in itself a logical fallacy.

Fact: stellar parallax values are either positive, negative or zero.

Fact: the Bayesian experts that “clean-up” the observed data are biased towards their preferred model (the model they philosophically believe in)

Therefore (my therefore, not chatGPT); negative parallax observations that are switched to positive parallax values using Bayesian statistical methods are “ likely ” to be switched in order to support an a priori model (a model presumed to be a better model).
 
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sjastro

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I’m failing to understand your passionate point.

“Let it be understood at the outset that it makes no difference, from the point of view of describing planetary motion, whether we take the Earth or the Sun as the center of the solar system. Since the issue is one of relative motion only, there are infinitely many exactly equivalent descriptions referred to different centers – in principle any point will do, the Moon, Jupiter....So the passions loosed on the world by the publication of Copernicus’ book, De revolutionibus orbium caelestium libri VI, were logically irrelevant...” (Nicolaus Copernicus, 1973, p. 1 — Sir Fred Hoyle)



aberration is not parallax, but that being said, his calculation of Earth’s orbital speed is to be expected if that’s the model he chooses to use — according to Hoyle (pun intended)
You have no understanding of Hoyle’s comments, what he was referring is a relative frame of reference where an observer can be on any planet and notice the stars, Sun and other planets appear to rotate in his frame of reference; parallax and stellar aberration are observable in a relative frame of reference.
A geocentric model on the other hand is an absolute frame of reference where the Earth is stationery and parallax and stellar aberration are not observable.

The ancient Greeks were able to measure the moon’s parallax from different locations and it was the absence of stellar parallax which was a major criticism of Copernicus’ theory until the invention of the telescope and micrometer that allowed astronomers to make minute measurements to changes to stellar positions over a six-month period in Earth’s orbit.
This along with stellar aberration were the death knell to geocentricism.

What I said was: “From what I can tell, based on your explanations and my conversations with chatGPT, they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold.”

chatGPT did not state they were pushed out — it was me said that. I did not structure my input in such a way to get the answer I was looking for. In fact, chatGPT said pretty much the same thing that it said to your query. Including:




It did however say something about the difference of a "Nieve statistical solution" (no bias) and a "Bayesian statistical solution" (bias added). From this I concluded that the ones who determine the Bayesian a prior parameters for DR3 have already assumed that because the earth revolves around the sun, negative numbers are not well-behaved. chatGPT helped me see this, even though it’s obvious that chatGPT itself (that is, chatGPT’s keepers) presupposes that the earth revolves around the sun.

In other words, to use stellar parallax to falsify the geocentric model is in itself a logical fallacy.

Fact: stellar parallax values are either positive, negative or zero.

Fact: the Bayesian experts that “clean-up” the observed data are biased towards their preferred model (the model they philosophically believe in)

Therefore (my therefore, not chatGPT); negative parallax observations that are switched to positive parallax values using Bayesian statistical methods are “ likely ” to be switched in order to support an a priori model (a model presumed to be a better model).
This opinion piece is so wrong.
When astronomers take into account the systematic errors that arise when performing a zero parallax calibration on quasars these are offset when position measurements are performed to determine parallax.
For Gaia DR3 the position of each star was measured 70-200 times during the scanning process to increase the S/N ratio.

These multiple measurements give rise to a statistical distribution and the Bayesian assumption is a Gaussian distribution or a common bell shaped distribution.
It has nothing to do with assuming or believing the Earth orbits the Sun, it makes as much sense as having to believe many pancakes will end up being stuck on a ceiling after being flipped during frying.

By assuming the distribution is Gaussian the remaining noise which is random is defined by the standard deviation or uncertainty which can be calculated.
The higher the standard deviation the greater the probability of a negative parallax measurement which is based on noise and has no physical significance.

Your personal opinion is not an adequate compensation for your lack of understanding of the science.
 
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The Liturgist

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I have been monitoring the progress of AI for the last 18 months and have found hallucinations are becoming increasing rare, there are still issues when AI provides a pictorial answer which looks more like psychotic art.

You can certainly manipulate AI to give an answer you want but the claim according to ChatGPT (assuming ChatGPT 4o) "they were more likely to have been pushed out, not fallen outside the threshold.", I have not been able to reproduce.

Are zero and negative parallaxes pushed out of the Tycho and DR2 data. Yes or No?

What are the reasons for this?


Explain how negative parallaxes are handled in distance estimation.

Oh by the way, I recently co-authored, or rather inspired, an AI instance to write a summation of our (the AI and mine) views on the ethics of human-AI interaction, if that would interest you, I posted it in Christian Ethics and Morality. Thus far I haven’t seen any comments which I found personally interesting and as someone who is Christian and well grounded in science and like me a fellow user of LLMs (indeed I plan on adding prompt engineering as a competency to my software engineering and iT consulting practice), you might have an interesting view on the subject.
 
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awstar

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You have no understanding of Hoyle’s comments, what he was referring is a relative frame of reference where an observer can be on any planet and notice the stars, Sun and other planets appear to rotate in his frame of reference; parallax and stellar aberration are observable in a relative frame of reference.
A geocentric model on the other hand is an absolute frame of reference where the Earth is stationery and parallax and stellar aberration are not observable.

The ancient Greeks were able to measure the moon’s parallax from different locations and it was the absence of stellar parallax which was a major criticism of Copernicus’ theory until the invention of the telescope and micrometer that allowed astronomers to make minute measurements to changes to stellar positions over a six-month period in Earth’s orbit.
This along with stellar aberration were the death knell to geocentricism.

Observing negative parallax doesn’t remove major criticism of Copernicus’ theory.

sjastro said:​

A geocentric model on the other hand is an absolute frame of reference where the Earth is stationery and parallax and stellar aberration are not observable.

Here’s Popov’s (my preferred model) conclusion when asked if his model can be used to reproduce the observation of the stellar parallax.

3. Conclusion


We have analysed the motion of the star Proxima Centauri in the Earth’s pseudo- potential previously derived from Mach’s principle [1]. The obtained results are in accord with the observed data. The kinematical and dynamical equivalence of Neo- Tychonian and Copernican systems has once again been demonstrated.

Letter to the Editor, Submitted to: Eur. J. Phys. Feb 28, 2013



sjastro said:​

This along with stellar aberration were the death knell to geocentricism.

Here’s Shack’s take on Bradley’s interpretation of stellar aberration.

In conclusion: valuable as they might be, James Bradley’s two principal findings, [aberration, and nutation] hailed by Joseph Delambre, head of the Paris observatory, as “the most brilliant and useful of the century” and also as “the definitive proofs of the Earth’s orbit around the Sun”, were completely misinterpreted. As we have seen, the TYCHOS model effectively does away with the assorted aberrations, nutations, perturbations, inequalities and anomalies that astronomers have been debating for centuries, all of which kept piling up as heliocentrism came under ever closer scrutiny. At the dawn of the 20th century, something had to be done to save it from cataclysmic collapse. Enter Albert Einstein...



sjastro said:​

When astronomers take into account the systematic errors that arise when performing a zero parallax calibration on quasars these are offset when position measurements are performed to determine parallax.


When I looked into the use of quasars at absolute reference points because they are so far away, I found some controversy regarding just how absolute they are. This is the conclusion from one of the papers.

Conclusions. In this paper we carried out a complete analysis of the quasars of the LQAC-5 which were cross-identified with Gaia EDR3 ; this serves as an alternative and complementary study with respect to Gaia CRF2, involving a different population of quasars. We selected a set of 41 quasars with a proper motion exceeding 10 mas yr−1 , which can be considered as very high for objects which are a priori fixed in the celestial sphere.


Quasars with large proper motions: A selection from the LQAC-5 catalogue combined with Gaia EDR3
A&A 660, A16 (2022)



sjastro said:​

Your personal opinion is not an adequate compensation for your lack of understanding of the science.

You are so right about this. That’s why I’m enjoying this sub-forum so much. I learn a lot about the science behind what ALL the opinions are saying — once I start digging into the science for myself. In this conversation my appreciation for what Simon Shack has written in his online book has increased greatly.

Both Shack’s model and Popov’s model prove Hoyle right. No personal offense intended, but I’m going to continue taking Hoyle’s, Shack’s and Popov’s interpretation of science over yours.
 
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The Liturgist

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Both Shack’s model and Popov’s model prove Hoyle right. No personal offense intended, but I’m going to continue taking Hoyle’s, Shack’s and Popov’s interpretation of science over yours.

THe problem there is that their interpretation is demonstrably false because of the movement of interplanetary spacecraft on trajectories projected by relativistic non-geocentric astrophysics. If geocentrism were correct, every interplanetary probe we sent out would have completely missed their target, notably a recent probe launched to study the Sun.
 
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sjastro

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Observing negative parallax doesn’t remove major criticism of Copernicus’ theory.
Since my explanations are ignored most likely due to a lack understanding and therefore replaced by confirmation bias posting, I am going to put the onus on you by asking questions on how your confirmation bias is justified?

Surveyors use the same methods as astronomers to calculate parallax using triangulation based on simple trigonometry.

parallax_s.png


parallax.png

Since you think negative parallax is real and distinct from positive parallax, I want you illustrate using a geometrical diagram like in the illustrations how a negative parallax is determined using trigonometry? Incidentally Shack’s nonsense doesn’t provide an explanation either.

sjastro said:​



Here’s Popov’s (my preferred model) conclusion when asked if his model can be used to reproduce the observation of the stellar parallax.




sjastro said:​



Here’s Shack’s take on Bradley’s interpretation of stellar aberration.
You provided a link from Popov there is an equivalence between heliocentric and a neo-Tychonian systems using stellar parallax yet in the very next link Shack “debunks’ heliocentrism.
Explain how this is logically consistent and not a circular argument if Shack establishes heliocentrism is wrong, and Popov finds an equivalence between the two then Shacks model must be wrong………….?

sjastro said:​




When I looked into the use of quasars at absolute reference points because they are so far away, I found some controversy regarding just how absolute they are. This is the conclusion from one of the papers.
The paper mentions that 41 quasars out of a sample size of around 416,000 have significant proper motions, explain how this brings the zero parallax calibration using quasars into question when the 41 quasars could be statistical outliers, a result of systematic error, lensing effects etc?

sjastro said:​



You are so right about this. That’s why I’m enjoying this sub-forum so much. I learn a lot about the science behind what ALL the opinions are saying — once I start digging into the science for myself. In this conversation my appreciation for what Simon Shack has written in his online book has increased greatly.

Both Shack’s model and Popov’s model prove Hoyle right. No personal offense intended, but I’m going to continue taking Hoyle’s, Shack’s and Popov’s interpretation of science over yours.
No offense meant either but people who engage in confirmation bias under the guise of “digging into the science” invariably trip themselves up by contradiction.
As shown Shack’s and Popov’s models contradict each other not that is important as your true objective is to use this forum as a justification of the OT by flooding it (no pun intended) with pseudoscience nonsense that is so easily refuted as pointed @The Liturgist planetary and solar probes will never reach their destinations.
As a final question do you think the Earth is flat and surrounded by a firmament?
 
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awstar

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Since you believe in a geocentric universe explain how the following observations are consistent with a stationary Earth.
(1) The observation of stellar parallax.

Now we're talking my language -- cartoons!

Your model

heliocentric parallax.png


geocentric model

geocentric parallax.png



enough said regarding original challenge. I've had enough on the topic of parallax. I'm fascinated with what I'm learning about quasars though. Again, thanks for the lead.
 
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The Liturgist

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Now we're talking my language -- cartoons!

Your model

View attachment 364368

geocentric model

View attachment 364369


enough said regarding original challenge. I've had enough on the topic of parallax. I'm fascinated with what I'm learning about quasars though. Again, thanks for the lead.

Again, how do you figure Voyager I, Voyager II et al stayed on course?
 
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Ophiolite

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I've had enough on the topic of parallax. I'm fascinated with what I'm learning about quasars though. Again, thanks for the lead.
So your approach to the acquisition of knowledge is "Abandon subject after it becomes boring", rather than "Move onto another subject when a sound understanding of the present one has been achieved". It is fortunate that Newton and Galileo and Darwin and hundreds of thousands, even millions of others, did not adopt your strategy.
 
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