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WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

bbbbbbb

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If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would reading 27 Greek books of which He knew and said nothing be something we would do?

STM there is much better support in the NT for praying to the BVM, than for reading the NT books as if they were sacred and canonical Scripture.

True Christians™️ are led by the spirit of God - not by a bunch of books which Jesus never needed, never commanded, never mentioned, & never promised. There is no NT evidence that Jesus ever thought of any other "new testament" than this one: "This cup is the new testament in my blood" (St Luke 22.20). If Jesus fulfilled the Old Law, so that it is totally defunct, then, if He fulfilled the OT, it too must be equally defunct. So if the Old Law is "done away in Christ", the Old Scriptures must be equally "done away in Christ". So a "new testament" Christian will be led by the spirit of God, and will not rely on carnal, dead, books such as the defunct Jewish Scriptures, and the imaginary New Testament Scriptures, of which Jesus knew nothing. A true reformation in the Church would cast out carnal, dead, books like the Bible, because the law of God would be written on men's hearts instead. True Christians, obeying the wise - though not Scriptural - words of John 14.6, go to Christ - not to the Bible. Jesus never told the thief on the cross to read the Bible. Salvation is by faith - not by Bible-reading. The Church, not the Bible, is "the pillar and foundation of the truth". The Pharisees and Sadducees "search[ed] the Scriptures", and much good it did them. Bible-reading leads to crucifying Christ, as they did. Scripture is the devil's most powerful weapon. The Bible in modern Evangelicalism has become a new Dagon, able to stand up only if its worshippers support it. Like all other idols, it cannot speak, cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot touch, cannot taste, cannot walk. And like all other idolatries, this too makes idolaters fools. The fruits of Bible-reading are, to say the least of it, extremely dubious and questionable. Evangelicals cannot serve both Christ and Scripture; for if they serve one, they will despise the other.
This is precisely the line of argument that split the Society of Friends (aka Quakers) in the nineteenth century, leading to their radical loss of influence and numbers. If you believe this, then I recommend that you join a Conservative Friends meeting, if you have not done so already.
 
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BPPLEE

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This is precisely the line of argument that split the Society of Friends (aka Quakers) in the nineteenth century, leading to their radical loss of influence and numbers. If you believe this, then I recommend that you join a Conservative Friends meeting, if you have not done so already.
I don't know if he would be happy there, the Conservative Friends have a lot of customs and practices that Jesus never took part in as well
 
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bbbbbbb

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I don't know if he would be happy there, the Conservative Friends have a lot of customs and practices that Jesus never took part in as well
I agree, but then we all tend to migrate to those fellowships which hold the same views on what we perceive to be major doctrines and then we relegate all the other things to the insignificant issues. The major exceptions are those of us who are perpetually seeking fellowships who dot every i and cross every t just like we do. I cannot think of anyone I know in this category who has actually found a church home.
 
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BPPLEE

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I agree, but then we all tend to migrate to those fellowships which hold the same views on what we perceive to be major doctrines and then we relegate all the other things to the insignificant issues. The major exceptions are those of us who are perpetually seeking fellowships who dot every i and cross every t just like we do. I cannot think of anyone I know in this category who has actually found a church home.
I agree, but then we all tend to migrate to those fellowships which hold the same views on what we perceive to be major doctrines and then we relegate all the other things to the insignificant issues. The major exceptions are those of us who are perpetually seeking fellowships who dot every i and cross every t just like we do. I cannot think of anyone I know in this category who has actually found a church home.
I've never found a perfect Church.
If I did, I wouldn't ruin it by joining
 
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com7fy8

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If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life
We can personally share with Jesus, right now . . . in us >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

In actual union with us Jesus shares how He is and how He loves . . . having us flowing in sharing with Him >

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

So - - there is no second-hand way of trying to imitate Him and how He walked. In us, we are growing in discovering how He is, by being changed by Him to become and love like He is and loves. In His love >

"Love has been perfected in us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

"as He is, so are we in this world" > because His perfect love in us has been perfecting us.

And you can check out Galatians 4:19 >

"My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you," (Galatians 4:19)

So, if this is what you mean by modeling and imitating . . . I agree.
by doing what He did while He was alive,
Well, I haven't raised anyone from the dead. But I trust Jesus to have me loving like He has done.

"And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma." (Ephesians 5:2)

Even if I do not cast out demons and heal maimed people, I can be sweet-smelling to God while I am loving any and all people.
would praying to Mary be something we would do?
While on earth, as I recall the gospels, nowhere does Jesus consult with Mary or pray to her.

And in the book of Acts nowhere does the early church have anything about the church consulting with or praying to or doing devotionals to Mary. And, of course, while the disciples were waiting for the Holy Spirit, Mary was there praying >

"These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers." (Acts 1:14)

So, this appears to say that Mary prayed along with everyone else. And, of course, not all Catholics claim that they "pray" to Mary > ones understand that Mary is not God and therefore not one to pray to.

In any case, Jesus did not leave them in her hands, but she prayed along with the others, and then Peter and other leaders took care of things.

And, by the way, Jesus Himself "makes intercession for us," we have in Romans 8:34. Jesus who is God's own Son is praying for us according to His faith. And I have not been made aware of any Catholic telling me that we need to keep asking Jesus for His intercession. Because Jesus is obedient; He makes intercession for us because our Father has Him to do so. An obedient one is already obeying by praying for us; there is no need to keep begging someone obedient to pray for us.

So, my opinion is that the real Mary would not need to have ones constantly asking her for prayer. And saints are commanded to pray for all the saints . . . so ones perfected in Heaven would have no need to keep being reminded and asked for prayer.

Actually, we ourselves are commanded to pray "for all the saints" > Ephesians 6:18. So, if we ourselves are commanded to pray for all saints, why ever would we need to beg people who have died to pray for us . . . if they really are praying and this is obeying how all of us are ***commanded*** to pray for all saints?

So . . . no . . . even if Mary were praying for people . . . she would be obedient to do this, no need for anyone to be giving her such attention as ones do, when we ourselves are required to be praying for any and all people. We have our things to do, and so we do not need to be using our time to tell anyone else who is obedient what to do!
 
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Valletta

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While on earth, as I recall the gospels, nowhere does Jesus consult with Mary or pray to her.
That would be ridiculous. A request is made to one in power. In the Davidic kingdom, the queen mother (as seen in the Bible) makes requests of the king. She asks what she has no power to do on her own. The king has no person more powerful than he to ask. So God does not make prayer requests to people on earth.
The Word of God instructs us to pray for one another, the best person to ask to make requests of Jesus is our Blessed Mother. We know Jesus granted her request even after telling her at Cana His time had not yet come.
 
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David Lamb

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That would be ridiculous. A request is made to one in power. In the Davidic kingdom, the queen mother (as seen in the Bible) makes requests of the king. She asks what she has no power to do on her own. The king has no person more powerful than he to ask. So God does not make prayer requests to people on earth.
The Word of God instructs us to pray for one another, the best person to ask to make requests of Jesus is our Blessed Mother. We know Jesus granted her request even after telling her at Cana His time had not yet come.
Whose blessed mother? She is nowhere in Scripture referred to as the mother of Christians. Also, as I have mentioned before, there is not a single instance anywhere in the New Testament of any Christian asking Mary or anybody else already in heaven to pray for them, nor any instruction to address such requests to her.
 
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com7fy8

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If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would praying to Mary be something we would do?
Jesus prayed to our Father. And He has given us prayer to say to our Father . . . Himself.

And our Apostle Paul says for us to pray "for all the saints" > in Ephesians 6:18.

So, a child of God has power to pray for a saint. And we are commanded to do this.

"'In that day you will ask in My name, and I do not say to you that I will pray the Father for you; for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.'" (John 16:26-27)

So, it looks like Jesus Himself is saying we can go to the Father Himself, because He loves us who are His children.

And we have Jesus Himself praying for us >

"Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." (Romans 8:34)

So, we have Jesus Himself praying for us according to His faith. And Jesus in us can have us praying to our Father, no need to go through anyone else. "But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17) In union with Jesus in us, we can pray effectively to our Father Himself . . . going through the Holy Spirit to God Himself.

And not only this, be we have the Holy Spirit "who makes intercession for us", our Apostle Paul does say, in Romans 8:26. Plus, we are commanded to pray in the Holy Spirit . . . in submission, then, to how the Holy Spirit has us praying > "in the Spirit" (in Ephesians 6:18) This means praying in God Himself, how He has us praying >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 20-21)

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, already every child of God is personally sharing with God Himself in His own love "in our hearts". And prayer includes our process of keeping ourselves "in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life."

So, in Biblical prayer our attention needs to be to God Himself in us and relating with Him in His own love.

Therefore, I see how we are not to be looking to Mary at some distance not inside of us, but in us be personally submitting to God Himself in His love and how He in us has us praying. Because God "works" in us "both to will and to do for His good pleasure", we have in Philippians 2:13 > God "works" how He wants us to pray.

And Jesus Himself says, "the Father who dwells in Me does the works" > in John 14:10. And works of Jesus included how the Lord prays in John chapter 17. We follow Jesus, then, by personally submitting to God at every moment and praying what He works us to pray . . . like Jesus did.
 
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BPPLEE

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That would be ridiculous. A request is made to one in power. In the Davidic kingdom, the queen mother (as seen in the Bible) makes requests of the king. She asks what she has no power to do on her own. The king has no person more powerful than he to ask. So God does not make prayer requests to people on earth.
The Word of God instructs us to pray for one another, the best person to ask to make requests of Jesus is our Blessed Mother. We know Jesus granted her request even after telling her at Cana His time had not yet come.
Why not just ask Jesus himself?
 
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Valletta

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Why not just ask Jesus himself?
We do, but God also tells us to pray for one another. There is what is called a "communion of saints," and we should not discount the prayers of the saints.
 
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Jipsah

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Whose blessed mother?
Our Lord, God Incarnate.
She is nowhere in Scripture referred to as the mother of Christians.
She is, however, the Mother of Christ, I.e., the Mother of God. That covers a lot of territory, IMO.
Also, as I have mentioned before, there is not a single instance anywhere in the New Testament of any Christian asking Mary or anybody else already in heaven to pray for them
Fair play. But there's nothing in the Bible that says I should (or shouldn't) ask old jundosa (elder) Kim to pray for me, either, but I do anyway.
And that's the problem. All the arguments against asking the BVM to pray for us also serve as arguments against asking anyone else to pray for us as well.
nor any instruction to address such requests to her.
My requests to elder Kim would begin, "Kim jundosa, could you please pray for me?" It isn't in the Bible (Korean or English), it's just simple courtesy. (Although I do bow to her, or as my Pentecostalist acquaintances say "bow down" do her, which they find extraordinarily offensive,.)
 
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Palmfever

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I'm sure He never asked her for anything, ever. I mean, it ain't like she is His real mother. Oh, wait...
Good grief, asking for maple syrup on your waffles is not petitioning God. There is one mediator.
 
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Valletta

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Good grief, asking for maple syrup on your waffles is not petitioning God. There is one mediator.
And all of the prayers and petitions end up going to our one mediator.
 
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David Lamb

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Our Lord, God Incarnate.
That's what I meant. I was answering a post which referred to Mary as our mother.
She is, however, the Mother of Christ, I.e., the Mother of God. That covers a lot of territory, IMO.
She was the mother of Jesus as far as His humanity is concerned. Suggesting that God has a mother is confusing to say the least. As God, Christ had existed in eternity past. His Godhood didn't begin with His conception in Mary's womb.
Fair play. But there's nothing in the Bible that says I should (or shouldn't) ask old jundosa (elder) Kim to pray for me, either, but I do anyway.
And that's the problem. All the arguments against asking the BVM to pray for us also serve as arguments against asking anyone else to pray for us as well.
Not so. We have examples in Scripture of Christians asking other Christians on earth to pray for them. For instance:

“praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints — and for me, that utterance may be given to me, that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.” (Eph 6:18-20 NKJV)

But nowhere in the bible do we read of anybody praying to a Christian in heaven, whether Mary or anyone else.
My requests to elder Kim would begin, "Kim jundosa, could you please pray for me?" It isn't in the Bible (Korean or English), it's just simple courtesy. (Although I do bow to her, or as my Pentecostalist acquaintances say "bow down" do her, which they find extraordinarily offensive,.)
I'm assuming Kim is still on earth and not in heaven yet. If that is the case, then as I have said, there is nothing unbiblical about it. However, this thread is about praying to Mary, not asking Mary to pray for us (though both are unbiblical).
 
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prodromos

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She was the mother of Jesus as far as His humanity is concerned. Suggesting that God has a mother is confusing to say the least.
Mary is the mother of a single person who is God become man. She is not simply the mother of His human nature, no mother is the mother of just the flesh of their children. They are mother to the whole person.
When you start making distinctions as to parts of Jesus that Mary is mother to, that is confusing and in fact divides Jesus where no division exists and potentially leads to grave error.
 
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trophy33

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no mother is the mother of just the flesh of their children. They are mother to the whole person.
What are you saying, that human mothers give also spirit to their children?
 
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prodromos

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What are you saying, that human mothers give also spirit to their children?
No. Every person, excluding of course the three persons of the Holy Trinity, is created by God, Adam from the earth, Eve from Adam's flesh, then every other person from the flesh of their parents.
Mothers don't "create" their children.
 
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