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WWJD Did Jesus Pray to Mary?

The Liturgist

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Of course, I do. However, I think you would agree with me that stating that "Mary is the one most often asked for intercessory prayers" is highly inaccurate, to say the least.

I can’t agree with that because Jesus Christ is fully God, and when we pray to Him, who according to Scripture will sit in judgement on us (Christ is both our mediator and our judge), we are not asking for his prayers. I would argue that such an interpretation of the phrase “through Jesus Christ our Lord” commonly found in Western liturgies in prayers addressed to the Father is extremely problematic.

Rather, this refers to His mediation, which should not be regarded as one person praying to another but rather to His consubstantial mediation between our humanity, with whom He is consubstantial, and the unoriginate divine essence of the Father which is shared with Christ and the Holy Spirit, both uncreated, coeternal and coequal persons in a familial union of pure love. Thus the essential mediation of Jesus Christ is in His consubstantiality with us and consubstantiality with the Father - he unites, in one person and one hypostasis, our humanity, which He assumed, with the ineffable divine nature. Whatever He knows, the Father knows, and the Holy Spirit knows.

Thus insofar as people might ask Jesus Christ for his intercession, if they do so imagining Him praying to the Father precisely as we pray to Him, in a manner that violates His coequality with the Father, they have made a minor and understandable error of trinitarian theology, one which could be avoided by improving the quality of music, since in those churches that replaced the traditional Protestant chorales with praise and worship music, much of the catechetical function of the worship service was obliterated, and the problem of undercatechesis has not diminished but increased.

Nor is this solely the fault of the Protestants; poor catechesis in the Roman church is largely to blame - they create a stumbling block for potential converts by forcing any, even those trained in theology from a high church Anglican or Old Catholic church whose beliefs are basically the same to go through RCIA, so that only Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and members of the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East, who are officially regarded as separated brethren, can join directly, but at the same time “cradle Catholics” no longer go through as extensive a catechism prior to Confirmation, and furthermore, while great pains were made after Vatican II to translate the rich hymns of the Mass from each liturgical season into the vernacular, and likewise with the Breviary, and to further promote the communal celebration of Vespers, Lauds and the renamed Matins, “The Office of Readings” before Mass and in the evenings, this did not happen, and those proper hymns from the Mass are all too frequently set aside in favor of praise and worship music, in many cases the same music one might hear at a Protestant church.

Thus the distinct beauty of both strands of Western Christianity is becoming increasingly endangered and threatened by a banal model. People have less of an actively Trinitarian and Incarnational faith, and are instead distracted by a morbid fascination with the end times driven by the popularity of premillenarian dispensationalist eschatological concepts pertaining to the Rapture and the Tribulation and speculation on who the anti-Christ will be or is. This is not spiritually healthy. In focusing on the kind of details Left Behind focuses on, according to a model of the End Times that did not exist in its present form until the 19th century, and which was otherwise rejected at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD, which officially rejected Chiliasm and modified the Nicene Creed to attempt to discourage a literal interpretation of the Millenium, by declaring of our Lord quite scripturally that “His Kingdom shall have no end”, people are distracted from the important point that whether our Lord comes tomorrow or in ten million years or in ten trillion years, when we die, we face the dread judgement seat of Christ as surely as we would if he came tomorrow. They also fail to appreciate what a fearful event the return of Christ as Pantocrator will be and the need to ensure that their faith is a living faith as per the Epistle of James.

These problems are also creeping into the Eastern Church, so even as we receive record numbers of converts, some parts of the church such as many of the Greek diaspora communities are at risk of becoming lukewarm, since the Ecumenical Patriarchate seems pre-occupied with Hellenic culture and with its own agenda and also must contend with the fact that it resides in a country that is hostile to Christians on the best of days. The damage to the Patriarchal Cathedral of St. George from the most recent pogrom against Christians in the 1950s has never been repaired, and not for want of funds.
 
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The Liturgist

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Whether or not other individuals serve in an intercessory role is not relevant to my response. My response is in regard to the assertion that Mary's role as intercessor is the most sought after, at least within Christendom.

There is as @prodromos pointed out a difference between intercession and mediation, and between intercessory prayers to God and the mediation between Christ and the Father. But really it is Christ who we must be concerned with since it is He who will sit in judgement over us (Matthew 25:31-46 etc), and is also our mediator. And the Holy Spirit in turn is the means by which we are convicted of sin and receive God’s grace, both through the sacraments and through specific actions such as the fulfillment of prayers outside the scope of sacramental worship.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yes, I must say I was surprised to see Jesus described as our Father rather than our Brother. The only place I could think of in the bible where the Messiah is referred to as "Father" is the prophecy of Isaiah, in that wonderful verses often read at Christmas time:

“For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isa 9:6 NKJV)

Indeed, Christ our True God is consubstantial and coessential with God the Father, thus becoming both our Brother and representing the Father so completely that he who has seen Christ has seen the Father. Likewise the Holy Spirit is of one essence with the Father and the Son.

The Son, however, is consubstantial both with the Father and the Spirit and with us, since He unites in one person and one hypostasis the human and divine natures, being fully God and fully Man, in His incarnation uniting our humanity to His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division. Nestorius, whose ideas have had a renaissance in the past two centuries unfortunately, stressed the division of the humanity and deity of Christ.
 
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Valletta

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I perceive that there is a degree of misunderstanding on my part, for which I apologize. In my understanding, the Bible is quite explicit that Jesus Christ intercedes for His people (Hebrews 7:25), but is not at all explicit concerning the intercessory role of others apart from the Godhead. Regardless, I have no doubt that Jesus Christ does make intercession. Therefore, it is my understanding that He is the one whose intercessions are most sought after, certainly by Protestants.

Whether or not other individuals serve in an intercessory role is not relevant to my response. My response is in regard to the assertion that Mary's role as intercessor is the most sought after, at least within Christendom.
Your misunderstanding is grammatical. In fact as has been pointed out to you, the statement is factual. Mary is indeed the individual most asked to pray for causes and for others. Her role as queen mother in the Davidic kingdom and her request at the wedding at Cana show us that she asks Jesus to intercede.. You disagree with the actual intercession of saints.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Your misunderstanding is grammatical. In fact as has been pointed out to you, the statement is factual. Mary is indeed the individual most asked to pray for causes and for others. Her role as queen mother in the Davidic kingdom and her request at the wedding at Cana show us that she asks Jesus to intercede.. You disagree with the actual intercession of saints.
I agree with you that among human intercessors Mary is, by far, the most popular. However, Jesus Christ does, indeed, intercede for His people and because of that my vote is cast for Him.
 
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RileyG

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I agree with you that among human intercessors Mary is, by far, the most popular. However, Jesus Christ does, indeed, intercede for His people and because of that my vote is cast for Him.
Well….yes, but only God- the holy trinity- deserves our worship and adoration. Ordinary humans do not.
 
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Valletta

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I agree with you that among human intercessors Mary is, by far, the most popular. However, Jesus Christ does, indeed, intercede for His people and because of that my vote is cast for Him.
"Prayers" was the noun. We typically don't ask Jesus to pray for us, we ask Him to intercede for us.
 
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The Liturgist

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"Prayers" was the noun. We typically don't ask Jesus to pray for us, we ask him to intercede for us.

Indeed, Jesus Christ mediates by virtue of His consubstantiality, for He both fully man, having put on our humanity through His incarnation by the Holy Spirit in the womb of our Glorious Lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary, and is the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, one of the Glorious Holy Consubstantial and Life-Giving Trinity, three persons, ever one God, in the unoriginate essence of the Father from whom the Son is begotten and the Holy Spirit proceeds now and ever and unto the ages of ages.

We venerate the Theotokos, together with our Lutheran and Anglican friends, and worship God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Together with most of our upper high church/Anglo-Catholic Anglican friends, and I think some Lutherans and a few other high church Protestants, we ask for the prayers of the Theotokos to her Son, our Mediator, who will sit in judgement on us as Pantocrator.
 
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prodromos

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I agree with you that among human intercessors Mary is, by far, the most popular. However, Jesus Christ does, indeed, intercede for His people and because of that my vote is cast for Him.
I find it frustrating that you acknowledge what has been posted, and then respond as if none of it was posted.
 
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JoeT

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Yes. Yes, because that is where God has Jesus being, that needs for then were provided. It is God that can be credited for that, while Mary was doing what she needed to be doing. This was not a good argument for us to pray to Mary to ask for help to us in what we see need for it.
Let me get this straight, the most holy Word of God, the Word made flesh, comes to us through a low life wench, hired hand, a surrogate mother who sold her body? How much do you think she got paid?

I thought it was an excellent argument for the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

There is one stone for the church being built on, it is the real gospel of Jesus Christ.
Its funny then that Stone built His Church on another stone, for He said, "upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Are they two different Churches? I wonder if He built 40,000 + 1 Churches?

JoeT
 
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FredVB

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It explains why Mary is the one most often asked for intercessory prayers.
I do not get this from that.

Let me get this straight, the most holy Word of God, the Word made flesh, comes to us through a low life wench, hired hand, a surrogate mother who sold her body? How much do you think she got paid?

I thought it was an excellent argument for the spouse of the Holy Spirit.


Its funny then that Stone built His Church on another stone, for He said, "upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" [Matthew 16:18]. Are they two different Churches? I wonder if He built 40,000 + 1 Churches?

JoeT

Excuse me if I am not following your argument.

The gospel of God's kingdom is what the overall church is built on. It is not defined by any recognized organization. It is consisting of all real believers, who are in Christ, who have ever been. The recognized organizations disagree, not always about real essential stuff though, but some do. Believers themselves all disagree about something or another. None are inerrant. But the essential of that gospel is present with all real believers, who are in Christ. And there will be reconciliation among all of them.
 
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RileyG

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No recognized organization? Matthew 16:18? And the book of acts make it clear the Church is a “recognized organization.”
 
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concretecamper

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No recognized organization? Matthew 16:18? And the book of acts make it clear the Church is a “recognized organization.”
Eph 4:3-5 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Protestantism have resulted in 10s of Thousands of different faiths. So sad.
 
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RileyG

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Eph 4:3-5 Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
Yup. Clearly sounds like an organization to me!
 
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David Lamb

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Let me get this straight, the most holy Word of God, the Word made flesh, comes to us through a low life wench, hired hand, a surrogate mother who sold her body? How much do you think she got paid?


JoeT
Who is saying that Mary was "a low life wench, hired hand, a surrogate mother who sold her body"? Who is even suggesting that she was paid?
 
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jamiec

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If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would praying to Mary be something we would do?
If we are to model ourselves after Jesus Christ and imitate His life by doing what He did while He was alive, would reading 27 Greek books of which He knew and said nothing be something we would do?

STM there is much better support in the NT for praying to the BVM, than for reading the NT books as if they were sacred and canonical Scripture.

True Christians™️ are led by the spirit of God - not by a bunch of books which Jesus never needed, never commanded, never mentioned, & never promised. There is no NT evidence that Jesus ever thought of any other "new testament" than this one: "This cup is the new testament in my blood" (St Luke 22.20). If Jesus fulfilled the Old Law, so that it is totally defunct, then, if He fulfilled the OT, it too must be equally defunct. So if the Old Law is "done away in Christ", the Old Scriptures must be equally "done away in Christ". So a "new testament" Christian will be led by the spirit of God, and will not rely on carnal, dead, books such as the defunct Jewish Scriptures, and the imaginary New Testament Scriptures, of which Jesus knew nothing. A true reformation in the Church would cast out carnal, dead, books like the Bible, because the law of God would be written on men's hearts instead. True Christians, obeying the wise - though not Scriptural - words of John 14.6, go to Christ - not to the Bible. Jesus never told the thief on the cross to read the Bible. Salvation is by faith - not by Bible-reading. The Church, not the Bible, is "the pillar and foundation of the truth". The Pharisees and Sadducees "search[ed] the Scriptures", and much good it did them. Bible-reading leads to crucifying Christ, as they did. Scripture is the devil's most powerful weapon. The Bible in modern Evangelicalism has become a new Dagon, able to stand up only if its worshippers support it. Like all other idols, it cannot speak, cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot touch, cannot taste, cannot walk. And like all other idolatries, this too makes idolaters fools. The fruits of Bible-reading are, to say the least of it, extremely dubious and questionable. Evangelicals cannot serve both Christ and Scripture; for if they serve one, they will despise the other.
 
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