Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

FreeinChrist · Mar 26, 2025

I am not avoiding anything.

You planning on refusing to pay taxes?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 26, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
I am not avoiding anything.

You planning on refusing to pay taxes?

You are. Also respond to me directly. You know what happens to someone who doesn't pay taxes. You then know they can get arrested. You then know that if they resist arrest the police will force them into a state of compliance and that could be lethal if resisted for long enough. The ultimate basis of law and government is force.

ralliann · Mar 26, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
Where does Jesus say that taxes are only used for that purposes of law enforcement, courts, and military protection

I just gave you the scripture.

FreeinChrist said:
not for helping the needy and infirm?

This was rendering to God what is God's. The law of Moses had laws with regards to these things "AMONG THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS", as well as those NON citizens dwelling in their border, which were LIMITED. Example: you could apply interest on a loan to NON CITIZEN (non jew's/ uncircimcised) But you could not apply interest to a fellow citizen....

FreeinChrist said:
Is it acceptable in your view for taxes to go road construction? Or maintain city parks? What about utilities? Should government be overseeing utlities so that they are safe? What about providing clean water, and managing the sewer system?

Sure but those are things that all men naturally like....

FreeinChrist said:
Christianity has really changed in my 70+ years, as for most of that time it was seen as a good thing to help the needy, clothe the naked, and feed the hungry, and aid the disabled.

The lefties go beyond that today. Way beyond. To other nations, non citizens, etc.

FreeinChrist said:
My father's generation, the greatest generation, supported the interstate highway system. That required tax money.

Certainly and the Roman rulers taxed for that. But......Courts of Justice and law enforcement were not lacking in any way for that. If roads etc were not the best, it was because of the economy of that nation.

FreeinChrist said:
We are suppose to be the salt of the earth, right?
Why do so many Christians now seem to view things as "I got mine, you can suffer" as it comes off to me?

That is not the view of many Christian. It is let me take care of mine, instead of giving it to you.....mentality. Like the scripture I quoted you.
The prosbul some quotes
"The Prozbul (Hebrew: פרוזבול, borrowed from Koinē Greek: προσβολή)[1] was established in the waning years of the Second Temple of Jerusalem by Hillel the Elder. The writ, issued historically by rabbis, changed the status of individual private loans into the public administration, which made them ineligible for cancellation on the year of Shmita. This allowed the poor to receive interest-free loans before the Sabbatical year while protecting the investments of the lenders."

In other words instead of FORGIVING THE DEBT in the SHMITA year they still owed and were indebted

"The Torah mandates a Sabbatical year, Shmita, every seventh year (not to be confused with the Jubilee, which is the year following seven cycles of Shmita).[2] Among other things, the departure of the Sabbatical year cancels all debts. This is one of the many laws in the Torah meant to protect the poor and disadvantaged, affording them a chance to escape from eternal debt.

Conversely, the law harmed the lenders who would never be reimbursed once the Sabbatical year ended to remit all debts. The wealthy refused to loan money during the latter years of the seven-year cycle, refusing the poor even a temporary opportunity to make ends meet.[3]"

This was a big issue before.....
Read Nehemiah 5.

FreeinChrist · Mar 26, 2025

ralliann said:
I just gave you the scripture.

This was rendering to God what is God's. The law of Moses had laws with regards to these things "AMONG THEIR FELLOW CITIZENS", as well as those NON citizens dwelling in their border, which were LIMITED. Example: you could apply interest on a loan to NON CITIZEN (non jew's/ uncircimcised) But you could not apply interest to a fellow citizen....

You stick to the Old Testament and not what Jesus says?

ralliann said:
Sure but those are things that all men naturally like....

I disagree with the idea that all men naturaly like the things I listed. Some begrudge highways, and fight clean water such as replacing lead pipes. Flint got into that problem because some Republicans wanted to save money and use the Flint river water which caused a great deal of problems.

ralliann said:
The lefties go beyond that today. Way beyond. To other nations, non citizens, etc.

Name-calling is not acceptable.

ralliann said:
Certainly and the Roman rulers taxed for that. But......Courts of Justice and law enforcement were not lacking in any way for that. If roads etc were not the best, it was because of the economy of that nation.

That is not the view of many Christian. It is let me take care of mine, instead of giving it to you.....mentality. Like the scripture I quoted you.

Yeah, it is sadly the view of many Christians today.

ralliann said:
The prosbul some quotes
"The Prozbul (Hebrew: פרוזבול, borrowed from Koinē Greek: προσβολή)[1] was established in the waning years of the Second Temple of Jerusalem by Hillel the Elder. The writ, issued historically by rabbis, changed the status of individual private loans into the public administration, which made them ineligible for cancellation on the year of Shmita. This allowed the poor to receive interest-free loans before the Sabbatical year while protecting the investments of the lenders."

In other words instead of FORGIVING THE DEBT in the SHMITA year they still owed and were indebted

"The Torah mandates a Sabbatical year, Shmita, every seventh year (not to be confused with the Jubilee, which is the year following seven cycles of Shmita).[2] Among other things, the departure of the Sabbatical year cancels all debts. This is one of the many laws in the Torah meant to protect the poor and disadvantaged, affording them a chance to escape from eternal debt.

Conversely, the law harmed the lenders who would never be reimbursed once the Sabbatical year ended to remit all debts. The wealthy refused to loan money during the latter years of the seven-year cycle, refusing the poor even a temporary opportunity to make ends meet.[3]"

This was a big issue before.....
Read Nehemiah 5.

Got anything from the New Testament?

FreeinChrist · Mar 26, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
You are. Also respond to me directly. You know what happens to someone who doesn't pay taxes. You then know they can get arrested. You then know that if they resist arrest the police will force them into a state of compliance and that could be lethal if resisted for long enough. The ultimate basis of law and government is force.

I already pointed out that Trump avoided taxes and was taken to court.
Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." He never said to avoid the tax man.

If you fail to pay taxes, you will be taken to court. You won't be killed, like you suggested, unless you resist with violence. Live by the sword, died by the sword.

You will not be doing what Jesus said.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 26, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
I already pointed out that Trump avoided taxes and was taken to court.
Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's." He never said to avoid the tax man.

If you fail to pay taxes, you will be taken to court. You won't be killed, like you suggested, unless you resist with violence. Live by the sword, died by the sword.

You will not be doing what Jesus said.

I'm not defending Trump. I'm only questioning this Leftist and Socialist belief that you are entitled to this money. I am also questioning your insistence in basing the legitimacy of wealth redistribution on Jesus Christ and all that it entails.

That you can't even acknowledge that force is a central component of the political system, force to imprison, force to kill, shows you have a child like understanding of power and governance In that you cannot understand that the system is ultimately backed by power.

The ability to inflict violence to compel taxation and wealth redistribution is what you are suggesting Jesus taught us. I don't believe he taught us any such thing, nor did he give earthy governments any such moral authority.

Is there any limiting principle to what a government can take from a person and redistribute? Can they take everything so long as you personally deem the cause as just?

ralliann · Mar 26, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
You stick to the Old Testament and not what Jesus says?

I disagree with the idea that all men naturaly like the things I listed. Some begrudge highways, and fight clean water such as replacing lead pipes. Flint got into that problem because some Republicans wanted to save money and use the Flint river water which caused a great deal of problems.

Name-calling is not acceptable.

Yeah, it is sadly the view of many Christians today.

Got anything from the New Testament?

LOL I just gave you the new testament. Jesus ministered and spoke to those under the old covenant. That I think is another problem. Modern day leftists want to apply to gentiles and nations not judged under the law.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus and John came among them because the curse and wrath that specifically was upon them by the law At that time. To escape it...The Jew first..

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Israel as a theocrasy is a pattern shadow of the CHURCH, and the common citizenship we have in heaven.....Not the earthly worldly states and nations we live in this world and this life, which the left speaks blurs the line.

FreeinChrist · Mar 26, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I'm not defending Trump. I'm only questioning this Leftist and Socialist belief that you are entitled to this money. I am also questioning your insistence in basing the legitimacy of wealth redistribution on Jesus Christ and all that it entails.

That you can't even acknowledge that force is a central component of the political system, force to imprison, force to kill, shows you have a child like understanding of power and governance In that you cannot understand that the system is ultimately backed by power.

The ability to inflict violence to compel taxation and wealth redistribution is what you are suggesting Jesus taught us. I don't believe he taught us any such thing, nor did he give earthy governments any such moral authority.

Is there any limiting principle to what a government can take from a person and redistribute? Can they take everything so long as you personally deem the cause as just?

I used Trump to show that you can owe a great deal of money in taxes, and not get killed. YOU are the one who said, "If someone doesn't pay tax the government will arrest or kill said person." I asked for the law that would execute a man for not paying taxes, and of course, none was mentioned. Then you turned it into resisting arrest. A person can be forcibly arrested and charged with resistence to arrest without violence. If there is violence on the person's part, then that person can be arrested for resistence with violence. If that person resists using a gun aimed at a police officer and threatens to kill, that person risks being killed. They are not killed for not paying taxes, they are killed for threatening an officer. You do bear the consequence of your accions.
Consult a lawyer if you doubt me.

Fact is, the failure to pay taxes does not lead to death unless a person commits other crimes leading to that. Failure to pay taxes may or may not be criminial or civil, it depends. It may not lead to an arrrest depending on the situation. Trump was not arrested regarding taxes that I remember.

Jesus didn't say to treat others as bad as possible, which is happening in the deportations as I pointed out in the first of my posts in this thread.
I was referring to this:
Chained for hours on a prison bus without access to food, water or a toilet. Told by guards to urinate on the floor. Held "like sardines in a jar," as many as 27 women in a small holding cell. Sleeping on a concrete floor. Getting one three-minute shower over three or four days in custody.

Christians are cheering that on which is disgusting and a terrible witness to others.

If you don't pay taxes, bear the consequences. Jesus said to render to Caesar (the government) what is Caesar's. The way to address it is by voting, not resisting arrest.

FreeinChrist · Mar 26, 2025

ralliann said:
LOL I just gave you the new testament. Jesus ministered and spoke to those under the old covenant. That I think is another problem. Modern day leftists want to apply to gentiles and nations not judged under the law.

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Jesus and John came among them because the curse and wrath that specifically was upon them by the law At that time. To escape it...The Jew first..

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Israel as a theocrasy is a pattern shadow of the CHURCH, and the common citizenship we have in heaven.....Not the earthly worldly states and nations we live in this world and this life, which the left speaks blurs the line.

You really aren't making a point like you think.

Richard T · Mar 26, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
No where. But did he say you have a right to take someone else's property and redistribute it?

Taxes in most countries are fully legitimate. There are a few that go so far as renouncing their citizenship and living in another country. Others just try to reform the system to reduce taxes. While there is waste and abuse, nearly everyone benefits from many government programs such as public education; k-12 being free in most nations as an example. Such spending makes society as a whole better off. I would argue too that if you failed to offer some form of safety net for food and medical, that there would be quite a bit of suffering by many. It would create lots of public unrest as well. If you are unsure, visit a nation where most available hospitals require cash up front before treatment of even an emergency.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 26, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
I used Trump to show that you can owe a great deal of money in taxes, and not get killed. YOU are the one who said, "If someone doesn't pay tax the government will arrest or kill said person." I asked for the law that would execute a man for not paying taxes, and of course, none was mentioned. Then you turned it into resisting arrest. A person can be forcibly arrested and charged with resistence to arrest without violence. If there is violence on the person's part, then that person can be arrested for resistence with violence. If that person resists using a gun aimed at a police officer and threatens to kill, that person risks being killed. They are not killed for not paying taxes, they are killed for threatening an officer. You do bear the consequence of your accions.
Consult a lawyer if you doubt me.

Fact is, the failure to pay taxes does not lead to death unless a person commits other crimes leading to that. Failure to pay taxes may or may not be criminial or civil, it depends. It may not lead to an arrrest depending on the situation. Trump was not arrested regarding taxes that I remember.

Jesus didn't say to treat others as bad as possible, which is happening in the deportations as I pointed out in the first of my posts in this thread.
I was referring to this:
Chained for hours on a prison bus without access to food, water or a toilet. Told by guards to urinate on the floor. Held "like sardines in a jar," as many as 27 women in a small holding cell. Sleeping on a concrete floor. Getting one three-minute shower over three or four days in custody.

Christians are cheering that on which is disgusting and a terrible witness to others.

If you don't pay taxes, bear the consequences. Jesus said to render to Caesar (the government) what is Caesar's. The way to address it is by voting, not resisting arrest.

You seem to nit understand the deeper point I am making about power. Which is not unexpected.

Do you believe a government can lawfully kill someone who resists arrest?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 26, 2025

Richard T said:
Taxes in most countries are fully legitimate. There are a few that go so far as renouncing their citizenship and living in another country. Others just try to reform the system to reduce taxes. While there is waste and abuse, nearly everyone benefits from many government programs such as public education; k-12 being free in most nations as an example. Such spending makes society as a whole better off. I would argue too that if you failed to offer some form of safety net for food and medical, that there would be quite a bit of suffering by many. It would create lots of public unrest as well. If you are unsure, visit a nation where most available hospitals require cash up front before treatment of even an emergency.

I am not denying that society does a certain amount of good or that society is better than no society. I am not an anarchist. I do however have a problem with people who try to interpret use of force that governments use as inherently moral or justified. Or that Christ taught this. I don't see where Christ backed the state in such a fashion.

Richard T · Mar 26, 2025

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I am not denying that society does a certain amount of good or that society is better than no society. I am not an anarchist. I do however have a problem with people who try to interpret use of force that governments use as inherently moral or justified. Or that Christ taught this. I don't see where Christ backed the state in such a fashion.

I guess the force of taxes are justified because we hold elections and not enough vote for those who want far less government. America even put in the 16th amendment to allow income taxes. I will say the momentum to spend is far too much. It exists in both parties, they only difference is exactly who each party wants to pay and what categories each party wants to spend.

Yarddog · Mar 26, 2025

Michie said:
We’re seeing a society become unhinged … again. Trump has quite a way with the radical Left. They absolutely hate him and DOGE, and they lose it by the hour. Now they’re burning Teslas (so much for climate care), raging in hotel lobbies and on college campuses to defend Hamas supporters, and cursing up a storm at rallies.

It's not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it’s leftist “faith leaders” too. Recently, nearly 100 “progressive” religious folks signed a letter demanding an unbiblical “Return to Jesus.” The Lent letter demanded that hundreds of millions of dollars of wasted taxpayer dollars continue to flow to (leftist) NGOs.

Funny. I don’t recall the Bible ever advocating that government fund the Church. I don’t recall Jesus demanding the government take care of the poor and the needy and ensure justice for those being crushed. Oh, wait, that’s because that’s the Church’s job. But a social justice worldview sees forced taxpayer funding of (leftist) faith-based organizations (despite massive taxpayer fraud and little to no accountability) as good stewardship.

Continued below.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

It s not just paid activists and politicians jumping into the resistance ring; it s leftist faith leaders too

www.christianpost.com

Funny how people flip flop on things they have claimed. The government is the people and Jesus did tell us to care for the needy.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 26, 2025

Richard T said:
I guess the force of taxes are justified because we hold elections and not enough vote for those who want far less government. America even put in the 16th amendment to allow income taxes. I will say the momentum to spend is far too much. It exists in both parties, they only difference is exactly who each party wants to pay and what categories each party wants to spend.

It's kind of weird to justify taxation based on democracy when any biblical verse you would appeal to in order to justify this view would be regarding non democratic governments. Yet the issue isn't so much the theory but the actual reality. Government and taxes ultimately rely on force regardless of their ideology and do we really want to say that Jesus is teaching us that it is moral for governments to redistribute wealth?

I don't see Christ ever doing that. Rather he talks about our responsibility as individuals. Not collective rights. Not what society ought to do to solve the problem.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
... We are suppose to be the salt of the earth, right?
Why do so many Christians now seem to view things as "I got mine, you can suffer" as it comes off to me?

Political capture. And a little help from groups like Paul Weyrich or the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

FreeinChrist said:
I already pointed out that Trump avoided taxes and was taken to court.
Jesus said, "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Jesus articulated modern monetary theory almost 2,000 years ago. Conservative economists, on the other hand, don't like talking about what money is in itself, because their whole model of economics and political messaging rests on obfuscating that reality.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Mar 27, 2025

FireDragon76 said:
Jesus articulated modern monetary theory almost 2,000 years ago. Conservative economists, on the other hand, don't like talking about what money is in itself, because their whole model of economics and political messaging rests on obfuscating that reality.

Where did Christ argue we ought print more money endlessly and borrow from future generations to serve the present?

Merrill · Mar 27, 2025

sanderabeer said:
The author might want to read the Old Testament.

do you think we still live under the old Hebrew covenant?

FireDragon76 · Mar 27, 2025

Merrill said:
do you think we still live under the old Hebrew covenant?

Jesus certainly lived and taught in that manner.

Leftist ‘faith leaders’ twisting Bible to support wasteful gov't spending

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