Heaven Or Hell

SabbathBlessings said:

It sounds like you are indicating that if we are in Him, we stay in our sinful state, but I believe the scriptures say something different. Our obedience to Him leads to righteousness continuing in sin leads us down the wrong path Rom 6:16 May 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15

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We are to be obedient and leave our sins. We will never be perfect though as we have a battle within us that is flesh verses the spirit.

SabbathBlessings said:

This is the faith that reconciles us back to Christ- sin separated man from God Isa 59:2 our faith in Christ and through Him, He changes us from the inside out where we want to obey Him through faith and love which reconciles us

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Fully agree. However, we will always have that battle within us.

CoreyD said:

You are right. It's a silly argument, and never should have started.

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Not saying that you should not have started this discussion about a Christian being perfect.
I am saying that I can bring out verses that counter what you are saying. So, it was silly to imply that am calling God a liar. We need to reconcile these verses that oppose each other.

CoreyD said:

So, let me try to understand you.
People are righteous when they meet God's criteria.
Is that true or false?

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No. We are but filthy rags. We are not righteous. That only thing that cleans us is the blood of Christ. This is what makes us righteous.

CoreyD said:

If you see drawing to your attention how people might see an individual saying contradicting things, is being rude, I will not do that again, Tonne.
I apologize, and you can be sure, I will not do that again... Actually, I said that before, and I am repeating.
It's a weakness. I'm sorry.
I will work on not being firm when talking to persons here, and I will keep any "reproof" to myself.

Paul reproved Peter. Was he rude to do so?
However, I accept your reproof. I am being a bit too firm.

Let me start again. Please scratch my previous rudeness.
From today I work extra hard at toning down, and please Tonne, may you do the same, because I don't think I did anything that you have not done on these forums.
So, probably we can both start over.

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I'll do my best to keep our conversation friendly. We've been part of the same discussions for a while now and have managed to communicate in a respectful way. I don’t mind being corrected when needed, but it’s important to be mindful of how we do it. Words online can sometimes come across harsher than intended since I can't see your expressions.

CoreyD said:

Psalm 53:1-3
1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
Did you notice whom are the ones not righteous?
They, in those verses, are the fools.
Surely, you don't think all of us are fools, do you?
Theses are not the ones who meet God's standard of righteousness.

God has set the "bar" for imperfect people to reach.
Once an imperfect person reaches that "bar" - God's standards of righteousness, they are righteous.
It is not a matter of being righteous to self. That is self righteousness. It is being a matter of being righteous to God.
That is what the poster I was responding to said, and what I agreed with.
So, one can be righteous, even though sinful. The scriptures say it is the righteous that will be rewarded with everlasting life. The Bible uses the word righteous over 1,000 times.
I hope you understand that.

If the context of the statement is understood, we agree, and can move on.

That is the end of my conversation on a subject that is not the topic of the thread, and I would rather spend time discussing the topic, which you" bailed" out from, than engaging in a "silly" argument.

I hope that does not sound rude. I am just letting you know the turn the thread has taken, which is not preferred.

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It sounds like you are saying that a believer will get to sinless perfection. This I do not agree with.

1Tonne said:

So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time. We put our faith in Him and He imputes His righteousness onto us.

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CoreyD said:

Forgive me Tonne, but I just wanted to draw your attention to this.
Do these two statements agree?

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They do agree. We are sinners but Jesus's blood washed us clean and so now when we stand before God, we are classed as righteous though His sacrifice. Our debt has been paid.

CoreyD said:

If you find it's not that straightforward, the Bible leaves no doubt as to what it means to be righteous.
Ezekiel 18:5, 9
5 Now suppose a man is righteous and does what is just and right: 9 He follows My statutes and faithfully keeps My ordinances. That man is righteous; surely he will live, declares the Lord GOD.I hope we can agree that this is very basic, as simple as it gets, so that we don't have to pull up multiple scriptures to explain it.

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This verse is not saying that we can be perfectly righteous by our own actions.
Can you give me an example of a man that lived perfectly? There is none apart from Jesus.

This is what I believe this verse is saying. If someone chooses to believe and they choose to honour God in the way they live; surely this person would live. They will not be perfect as there is none that is perfect, but they will do their very best. Just like Abraham. He was a sinner, but his faith was accounted to him as righteousness. So, Abraham, though he was not perfect, tried to live in a way that was just and right, and honoured God; and so, God saw his faith and even though he had sinned, it was accounted to him as righteousness.
So, this verse is simply saying that if a man lives out his faith, then it is accredited to him as righteousness.

"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;" Isaiah 64:6
A spotless rag that is perfectly clean is righteous. But we are not. We have sinned and so our so-called righteousness is dirty.
This verse is part of Isaiah’s prayer of confession on behalf of Israel. The people had sinned and turned away from God, and Isaiah acknowledged their spiritual condition before Him.
1. "We are all like an unclean thing" – This refers to the impurity of sin. In the Old Testament, being "unclean" meant being unfit for worship and unable to approach God. Isaiah is saying that the people are spiritually defiled because of their sins.
2. "All our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" – Even the best deeds of sinful humanity are tainted. The term "filthy rags" (Hebrew: beged iddim) refers to cloths used by a woman during menstruation, symbolizing impurity under the Law (Leviticus 15:19-24). This means that even what people consider "good" is still stained by sin when measured against God's holiness.

How Does This Apply to Us?
-It emphasizes that human righteousness cannot earn salvation. No amount of good works can make us right with God; we need His grace.
-It points to the need for faith in Christ. Only through Jesus' righteousness, not our own, can we be justified before God (2 Corinthians 5:21).
-It reminds us of our dependence on God’s mercy. Like Isaiah, we should humbly acknowledge our sin and seek God's forgiveness.

CoreyD said:

You really can't see that you are contradicting yourself, can you... Or can you.
Sorry if I sound rude and condescending. I'm just trying to help, and don't want to go easy on you for a reason.
Sometimes the spirit moves us to say something in a way that brings a person out of the grip they may not be aware of.

Can you take a step back and listen to yourself?
Would you like me to remind you of every statement you made that contradicted the other?
Just say the word though, and I'll be hands off if you don't need my help.

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There is no contradiction. If we have an unclean rag and then we wash it, it is then clean. So, that is what Jesus's sacrifice does. It cleans our slate. His blood washes us. So, even though we are not righteous, like Abraham, it is accredited to us as righteousness.

1Tonne said:

We are to be obedient and leave our sins. We will never be perfect though as we have a battle within us that is flesh verses the spirit.

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Paul talks about overcoming the flesh

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

1Tonne said:

Fully agree. However, we will always have that battle within us.

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Yes, but God gives us a way to escape

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Our God is bigger than our devil to deliver us from sin, than the devil is to keep us in sin. Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 and through Christ we can overcome. Rev 14:12

CoreyD said:

So, we can be both a sinner, but righteous at the same time.
and
If you are righteous then you are without sin and that would make you a liar
agree?

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Once again, you need to watch your wording. You are rude.
Just because you lack understanding regarding this, does not make me a liar. I can easily reconcile the two statements. But you are not able to reconcile. This is something that you may need to work through to understand. Most people can understand it straight away but some, if they have a thought pattern already in their head, can find it hard to change their set pattern.

CoreyD said:

So, you think one who says we can be righteous even though we have sin is a liar, yet you think we we can be righteous even though we have sin.
Okay.

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The question you should be asking is. Is God going to accept only righteous people into heaven? The answer is yes.
So, since we have already sinned against God, how do we become righteous? Is it through our works or is it because Jesus's blood washes our sins away?
-1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Jesus washes our sins away

CoreyD said:

This is a strawman Tonne.
Where did you pull the word perfect from, except from your mind.

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What is your definition of righteous?

SabbathBlessings said:

Paul talks about overcoming the flesh

Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

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Paul talks about the battle with the flesh, and John talks about having an advocate with the Father when we sin.

Paul on the Battle with the Flesh
Paul describes the struggle between our sinful nature (the flesh) and our desire to follow God:
-Romans 7:18-19, 22-23
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice... For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
-Galatians 5:16-17
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

Paul makes it clear that even as believers, we still struggle with our sinful nature. However, we are called to walk by the Spirit and rely on God's power to overcome sin.

John on Having an Advocate When We Sin
John reassures believers that if we sin, Jesus is our advocate before the Father:
-1 John 2:1
"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."
-1 John 1:9
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Paul teaches that believers still struggle with sin, but the Holy Spirit empowers us to overcome it.
John reassures us that when we do sin, Jesus Christ is our advocate, interceding on our behalf.

SabbathBlessings said:

Yes, but God gives us a way to escape

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.

Our God is bigger than our devil to deliver us from sin, than the devil is to keep us in sin. Jesus came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 and through Christ we can overcome. Rev 14:12

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He does give us a way to escape, and we should not just casually walk into sin. We need to fight it. But when we do sin, we are lucky as we have an advocate to the Father.

1Tonne said:

Paul talks about the battle with the flesh, and John talks about having an advocate with the Father when we sin.

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It doesn’t say when we sin, it says if, which means there’s is another option

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Sin should be painful to us because of what it did to Jesus on the Cross. It should not be something we take lightly, I can sin because I have an Advocate. We are told we can overcome- do you believe this? It’s a promise of the Scripture

1Tonne said:

Paul on the Battle with the Flesh
Paul describes the struggle between our sinful nature (the flesh) and our desire to follow God:
-Romans 7:18-19, 22-23
"For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice... For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
-Galatians 5:16-17
"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish."

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Yes, there is no doubt there is a struggle, but as we already established God gives us a way to escape 1 Cor 10:13 which why would He give us to that if we can’t overcome. We should not be a salve to sin and if we are my suggestion is more time in prayer and pray for the promises of the Scripture that we can overcome through Christ.

We serve a very Big God who not only redeems us by His blood, He doesn’t leave us in the condition of sin, He came to save us from sin Mat 1:21 not in sin Heb 10:26-30

If we have Christ’s imputed righteousness, would we have a little sin. Did Jesus sin a little or did He overcome? Heb 4:15 1 Peter 2:21-22

Its a promise there is a people who can overcome through Christ Rev 14:12 Rev 3:21. Why would Jesus reveal this if it weren't true.

SabbathBlessings said:

It doesn’t say when we sin, it says if, which means there’s is another option

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

Sin should be painful to us because of what it did to Jesus on the Cross. It should not be something we take lightly, I can sin because I have an Advocate. We are told we can overcome- do you believe this? It’s a promise of the Scripture

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I agree sin will be painful to us. Therefore, we will be less likely to fall into it.

The Bible teaches that while we can have victory over sin, we will never be completely sinless in this life. However, through Christ, we have the power to resist sin and grow in holiness.

1. Believers Still Struggle with Sin
Even after salvation, we still have a sinful nature that battles against the Spirit:
-1 John 1:8 – "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
-Romans 7:18-19 – "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."
Even Paul, one of the greatest apostles, admitted that he struggled with sin. This shows that no Christian becomes completely sinless in this life.

2. We Are Called to Resist Sin and Grow in Holiness
Though we still struggle, we can overcome sin in our daily lives by the power of the Holy Spirit:
-Galatians 5:16 – "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
-Romans 6:11-12 – "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."
-1 Corinthians 10:13 – "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."
While we will never be perfectly sinless before Christ returns, we can grow in righteousness and overcome sinful habits through God’s strength.

3. When Will We Be Completely Free from Sin?
Only when Christ returns and we receive our glorified bodies will we be completely free from sin:
-1 John 3:2 – "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
-Revelation 21:27 – "But there shall by no means enter it [the New Jerusalem] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."
In eternity, sin will no longer have any power over us.

Conclusion: Victory Over Sin, but Not Perfection Yet
- We can overcome sin in our daily lives through Christ.
- We cannot be completely sinless in this life.
- We will be sinless when we are glorified with Christ.

1Tonne said:

I agree sin will be painful to us. Therefore, we will be less likely to fall into it.

The Bible teaches that while we can have victory over sin, we will never be completely sinless in this life. However, through Christ, we have the power to resist sin and grow in holiness.

1. Believers Still Struggle with Sin
Even after salvation, we still have a sinful nature that battles against the Spirit:
-1 John 1:8 – "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
-Romans 7:18-19 – "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice."
Even Paul, one of the greatest apostles, admitted that he struggled with sin. This shows that no Christian becomes completely sinless in this life.

2. We Are Called to Resist Sin and Grow in Holiness
Though we still struggle, we can overcome sin in our daily lives by the power of the Holy Spirit:
-Galatians 5:16 – "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."
-Romans 6:11-12 – "Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts."
-1 Corinthians 10:13 – "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it."
While we will never be perfectly sinless before Christ returns, we can grow in righteousness and overcome sinful habits through God’s strength.

3. When Will We Be Completely Free from Sin?
Only when Christ returns and we receive our glorified bodies will we be completely free from sin:
-1 John 3:2 – "Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."
-Revelation 21:27 – "But there shall by no means enter it [the New Jerusalem] anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life."
In eternity, sin will no longer have any power over us.

Conclusion: Victory Over Sin, but Not Perfection Yet
- We can overcome sin in our daily lives through Christ.
- We cannot be completely sinless in this life.
- We will be sinless when we are glorified with Christ.

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Actually, thats not so 1Thorne, we can gain victory before Christ comes. He tells us so…..

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’
Rev 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works (Exo 32:16) until the end, to him I will give power over the nations
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat downwith My Father on His throne.
Rev 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Rev 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Rev 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Before Jesus comes, our fates will already be sealed
Rev 22:11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [a]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

You seem to indicate the devil has more power to keep us in sin, than Jesus does to keep us from sin. Do you not believe there is an escape option God gives us we can take when we are tempted? Jesus came to save us from our sins, we are not saved in our sins. Heb 10:26-30

Mat 1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name [a]Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Seems we are going in circles. I bring up verses that show have we will have a battle with the flesh. You bring up verses that say we can live a sinless life even though we are in a fallen body.

1Tonne said:

Seems we are going in circles. I bring up verses that show have we will have a battle with the flesh. You bring up verses that say we can live a sinless life even though we are in a fallen body.

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You bring up the problem, yes there is a struggle and the devil wants us to believe we can’t overcome 1 John 3:8 but that is not the end result if Christ is in us. We have a solution 1 John 1:9 John 15:5 Rom 6:1-4 Romans 8:12-13 1 Cor 10:13 through Christ we can overcome 1 John 3:9 John 14:15-18 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 Heaven Or Hell. Anyway I am ok with agreeing to disagree. I wish you well.

SabbathBlessings said:

You bring up the problem, yes there is a struggle and the devil wants us to believe we can’t overcome 1 John 3:8 but that is not the end result if Christ is in us. We have a solution Rom 6:1-4 Romans 8:12-13 1 Cor 10:13 through Christ we can overcome 1 John 3:9 John 14:15-18 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14 Heaven Or Hell. Anyway I am ok with agreeing to disagree. I wish you well.

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I live in the hope that I too can one day live in a way that is completely righteous. What a wonderful thing that would be. But until then, I will run the race. And if I fall, I will get back up again and continue to run. God bless.

1Tonne said:

I live in the hope that I too can one day live in a way that is completely righteous. What a wonderful thing that would be. But until then, I will run the race. And if I fall, I will get back up again and continue to run. God bless.

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I believe with God all things are possible Mat 19:28 even forsaking our sins Pro 28:13 but as Paul said press on!

God bless.

CoreyD said:

If you find it's not that straightforward, the Bible leaves no doubt as to what it means to be righteous.
Ezekiel 18:5, 9
5 Now suppose a man is righteous and does what is just and right: 9 He follows My statutes and faithfully keeps My ordinances. That man is righteous; surely he will live, declares the Lord GOD.I hope we can agree that this is very basic, as simple as it gets, so that we don't have to pull up multiple scriptures to explain it.

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Then no one is righteous as Paul declares in Romans 3:10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one;

Now if one recieves righteousness from Christ by faith do you believe that they are still unrighteous unless they can consistently do the works listed under the old covanent? Or do you believe Paul when he says, “However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.” (Romans 4.5)

CoreyD said:

Why do you say that?
Paul did not refer to every man, in that verse.
In describing the state of mankind alien from God, Paul quotes the verses as they are... referring to "them"..
He isn't contradicting the scriptures which do say there are men who are righteous.

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Now, we have agreed that everything should be established by scripture. If Romans 3:10 were the only verse in the bible to say this, you might have a point, but Romans 3:10 is not an isolated declaration. If we look back at verse 9, Paul sets the context for what he is trying to express. "What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin," So both Jews and Greeks are under sin.

Now, you may claim that that leaves a lot of races out of the equation. Yet consider the following charges the bible makes:

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Everything is under sin.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
All are consigned to disobedience

In fact, to solidify the context in which He was quoting from the scriptures, Paul stated in verses 22-23 "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

By the preponderance of the evidence, it does appear that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. I think that we humans look at doing rather than being. If one does things to be righteous, they will never be righteous. But if one is made righteous, they will be righteous start doing righteously.

CoreyD said:

I really don't know what you are asking, and why you are asking it... especially in this thread.
Would you like to discuss the topic further? Would it be appropriate to start a thread on that subject?
Already, persons here don't seem to mind derailing the thread.
However, I would rather not do that.

I decided the posts are short enough for you to read them, so here they are.
They show the hope persons had before the mystery was revealed to the apostles, and the purpose for a heavenly hope.

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I apologize, I thought that this was what the thread was about. I understand if you do not wish to answer the question, but I truly was not trying to derail whatever your thread is about.

CoreyD said:

Do you accept what the Bible says about you... if you consider yourself among those not righteous?

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He is righteous because the blood of Jesus washed his sins away.

CoreyD said:

As for me, I am trying my best not to practice sin, and I know that God considers me righteous, when I do so.

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Even you are implying that you are not righteous. So, you are condemned. To be righteous by your standard, you have to be without sin. Your wording implies that on occasion, you sin but you do your best not to.
How many sins do we have to commit to be unrighteous? One, two, or lots? If one, then you are implying that you are in big trouble.
That is unless, I have presumed too much. Maybe you never sin and therefore, are righteous.

CoreyD said:

As I said, you made the effort to address the topic, and by your question, seem open to scriptures that would support what was said.
Hopefully, you won't run away from those scriptures, saying you are bailing out, and then find something else to argue about.

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I am sorry for not reading your entire post. Your posts were getting way too long and drawn out. In turn, my responses were getting too long as well, and I have a life where I cannot spend all day responding to you.
So, if it gives you pride to be able to outlast me in long posts, then you can have your pride.

CoreyD said:

Okay, here is what I will recommend for those who are actually debating this subject.
Consider these scriptures - James 5:16; 1 Peter 3:12; 1 Peter 4:18; 2 Peter 2:7, 8; 1 John 3:6-12; Revelation 22:11, and if you still think there is no one righteous... including you, this is what the Bible says about you, and what you are agreeing to.
Please note. These are not my words to you. This is what the Bible says... if you are not righteous.

• your prayers do not avails much. That is, they are not of much use, value, or advantage - James 5:16
• the eyes of the Lord are not on you, and his ears... well, his ears are not open to your prayers - 1 Peter 3:12
• you are less than scarcely saved... what does that mean? There is no hope of being saved. - 1 Peter 4:18
• you do not practices righteousness, and so, you are unrighteous. and is of the devil - not born of God. Not a child of God. - 1 John 3:6-12
• if at the coming of the Lord, you are still in the state you are including yourself in, you will still be unjust or unrighteous. - Revelation 22:11

Do you accept what the Bible says about you... if you consider yourself among those not righteous?
Whatever your answer, that is my final word on the debate about whether or not anyone is righteous.

As for me, I am trying my best not to practice sin, and I know that God considers me righteous, when I do so.
I too, believe that many men, and women, including Lot, were righteous, as the Bible says they were, and I know that many alive today, are righteous, and will die righteous, as many have.
These will be resurrected to life. Acts 24:15; John 5:28, 29

Now that that is out of the way, I hope we can get back to the subject.


It's okay.
What I said does not pertain to you.
As I said, you made the effort to address the topic, and by your question, seem open to scriptures that would support what was said.
Hopefully, you won't run away from those scriptures, saying you are bailing out, and then find something else to argue about.

Have you taken a look at the scriptures?
Do they answer your question?

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When one makes an argument based upon a promise, that premise should be open for debate.

No one is righteous until God declares them so. You say: As for me, I am trying my best not to practice sin, and I know that God considers me righteous, when I do so.

This seems to infer that your righteousness is based on what you do and not on what God does. I do not practice sin because God grants me his righteousness.

Now before you get on my case about derailing this thread, please consider that you made your original position in post 1 based on what you claim are “good” people and “bad” people. Is it not therefore apropos to examine what consists of a “ good person” and a “bad person.” Or are you expecting everyone to argue on the basis of your judgement and conclusions?

CoreyD said:

Have you taken a look at the scriptures?
Do they answer your question?

Click to expand...

Yes, I have. Have you considered the scriptures I quoted? How do you refute these? All truly good people will be saved and all truly bad people will be lost if we use God’s judgements as the standard.