Heaven Or Hell

[Mercy Shown]

Not one scripture in the Bible says Christ had a church from the "foundation of the earth".


All the saved are righteous, and I believe that was said about a dozen times in this thread.
Why do you repeat it?


So, did Paul lie? Acts 24:15

The Bible teaches that the unjust will be resurrected to face judgment. Unlike the righteous, who are raised to eternal life, the unjust are raised to face condemnation, demonstrating God's justice and the seriousness of rejecting His offer of salvation. Resurrection does equate with righteousness. Consider the following points.

Resurrection of All People
Acts 24:15 – “There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”
This shows that everyone will be raised, but not all to the same outcome.

Purpose of the Resurrection of the Unjust
John 5:28–29 – “...those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”
The resurrection of the unjust leads to judgment and condemnation, not salvation.

Final Judgment
Revelation 20:12–15 describes the “great white throne” judgment, where the dead are judged according to their deeds. Those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire—symbolic of final separation from God.

Justice and Vindication
The resurrection of the unjust affirms God’s justice. Those who rejected truth and lived in rebellion are held accountable in eternity.

I am familiar with what the Bible teaches about the founding of the world.
I'm also familiar with the misconception, regarding the use of that expression.


I understand you believe the sons of God are everyone believing through faith.
However, that's not what the scriptures say.


Yes there is.

Matthew 25:39, 40
39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’
40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

Matthew 25:39–40 teaches that acts of kindness to the needy are seen by Jesus as acts of love toward Him. It underscores how deeply He identifies with the vulnerable and how genuine discipleship is expressed in practical love.

Verse 39 is the question the righteous ask: they’re surprised and wonder when they ever saw Jesus in need and helped Him.

Verse 40 is Jesus' reply: "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."
He identifies Himself with “the least” — the hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, and imprisoned.

This has nothing to do with your premise.

whatever
ἐφ’ (eph’)
Preposition
Strong's 1909: On, to, against, on the basis of, at.


They are sheep, only because of what they do for Christ's brothers. Matthew 25:40

Sheep do what sheep do because they are sheep just as God's people do what is good because they are saved and renewed by the holy spirit. All the goodness of a man cannot save him.

The goats are such because of what they did not do for Christ's brothers. Matthew 25:45

No they did not do for Christ because they were goats. Don't mistake the cause for the effect.

This is what the scriptures say regarding how the sheep and goats are identified.

Yes, they are identified that way because it is the effect of what they are.

 

[CoreyD]

The church of Christ includes both the children of Israel from the Old Testament and believers from the post-Pentecost era because Scripture presents God's people as one unified body across time.

You have not shown any scriptural proof to support this assertion.

Paul teaches in Romans 11 that Gentile believers are grafted into the same "olive tree" as Israel, not a separate tree.

This does not have anything to do with people living prior to Jesus, and nowhere does Paul say every Gentile believer is grafted into the same olive tree as Israel.

Hebrews 11 affirms that Old Testament saints lived by faith in the promises of God, just as Christians do.

Nowhere in the Bible do we find any such expression as "Old Testament saints", and we are not talking about living by faith, since you cannot be saved lest you have faith.
Having faith does not make one a Saint, nor an anointed son of God.

Ephesians 2 further states that Christ broke down the dividing wall, making one new humanity from Jews and Gentiles.

Yes. Jews and Gentiles who would accept Christ.
Cornelius and members of his household were the first Gentiles to be baptized by spirit... becoming the first of the Gentiles to be adopted as sons of God.
The Bible is clear on that.
God does the selecting of the sons of the kingdom, from Jesus' first followers, until the full number is sealed.

Thus, the church transcends time and ethnicity, encompassing all who belong to God through faith—from Abraham to the present.

You are making quite a lot of assertions with no scriptural proof provided.

The Bible teaches that the unjust will be resurrected to face judgment. Unlike the righteous, who are raised to eternal life, the unjust are raised to face condemnation, demonstrating God's justice and the seriousness of rejecting His offer of salvation. Resurrection does equate with righteousness. Consider the following points.

So, it's not heaven or hell then.

Resurrection of All People
Acts 24:15 – “There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”
This shows that everyone will be raised, but not all to the same outcome.

That translation is so erroneous.
There will be no resurrection for the wicked.
The word used in Greek is ἄδικος - adikos
Word Origin: Derived from the Greek prefix "α-" (a-), meaning "not," and "δίκη" (dikē), meaning "justice" or "righteousness."

The resurrection of the unrighteous, is not that they may be thrown into hell.
The Bible speaks of a 1.000 year rule, and judgment, in which Jesus refers to people such as the Ninevites, Sodom and Gomorrah, Tyre and Sidon, the Queen of Sheba, as being raised, and condemning others. Luke 11:30-32; Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:21-24

Purpose of the Resurrection of the Unjust
John 5:28–29 – “...those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”
The resurrection of the unjust leads to judgment and condemnation, not salvation.

Final Judgment
Revelation 20:12–15 describes the “great white throne” judgment, where the dead are judged according to their deeds. Those not found in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire—symbolic of final separation from God.

Justice and Vindication
The resurrection of the unjust affirms God’s justice. Those who rejected truth and lived in rebellion are held accountable in eternity.

Matthew 25:39–40 teaches that acts of kindness to the needy are seen by Jesus as acts of love toward Him. It underscores how deeply He identifies with the vulnerable and how genuine discipleship is expressed in practical love.

Verse 39 is the question the righteous ask: they’re surprised and wonder when they ever saw Jesus in need and helped Him.

Verse 40 is Jesus' reply: "As you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me."
He identifies Himself with “the least” — the hungry, thirsty, stranger, naked, sick, and imprisoned.

This has nothing to do with your premise.

Sheep do what sheep do because they are sheep just as God's people do what is good because they are saved and renewed by the holy spirit. All the goodness of a man cannot save him.

No they did not do for Christ because they were goats. Don't mistake the cause for the effect.

Yes, they are identified that way because it is the effect of what they are.

Seems you are talking about literal sheep. Are you?

 

[Mercy Shown]

This does not have anything to do with people living prior to Jesus, and nowhere does Paul say every Gentile believer is grafted into the same olive tree as Israel.

Of course it does. The imagery of a tree represents Israel. (Is 65:22)

Paul's olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is deeply rooted (pun intended) in Old Testament imagery and theology. Several key Old Testament passages use tree or plant metaphors to describe Israel as God’s people—His planting, His vineyard, His olive tree. These allusions help support Paul’s imagery and show that he’s building on long-standing biblical themes.

Here are the most relevant ones:

Jeremiah 11:16
“The Lord once called you a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit. But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.”

This is the clearest Old Testament reference that Paul is echoing.

It explicitly refers to Israel as a green olive tree, just like in Romans 11.

It also includes the idea of judgment—some branches being burned or cut off.

2. Hosea 14:5–6
“I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon... His beauty shall be like the olive tree.”

Again, Israel is compared to an olive tree—beautiful and fruitful when faithful.

Hosea often speaks of restoration, just like Paul does in Romans 11 regarding Israel’s eventual return.

3. Isaiah 5:1–7 – The Song of the Vineyard
“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting…”

Here, Israel is God’s vineyard—another plant-based metaphor for God’s people.

God tends it with care, but when it yields wild grapes (sin), judgment comes.

4. Psalm 52:8
“But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. I trust in the steadfast love of God forever and ever.”

A personal expression of faith, identifying oneself as part of God's faithful people—as a green olive tree planted in His presence.

Theological Implication:
These passages all reflect the idea that God’s people—Israel—were planted by Him. Paul, in Romans 11, draws on this heritage and expands it to include Gentile believers as wild branches being grafted in. But the tree is still the same tree—rooted in the covenant with Abraham, sustained through the Law and prophets, and fulfilled in Christ.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Nowhere in the Bible do we find any such expression as "Old Testament saints", and we are not talking about living by faith, since you cannot be saved lest you have faith.
Having faith does not make one a Saint, nor an anointed son of God.

In Hebrew, the equivalent of "saint" can be expressed as קדוש (kodesh), which means "holy" or "holy one". The term also implies "set apart" or "separated" for a special purpose. Another related term is חסיד (chasiyd), which translates to "faithful, godly, or saint"

 

[CoreyD]

Of course it does. The imagery of a tree represents Israel. (Is 65:22)

Paul's olive tree metaphor in Romans 11 is deeply rooted (pun intended) in Old Testament imagery and theology. Several key Old Testament passages use tree or plant metaphors to describe Israel as God’s people—His planting, His vineyard, His olive tree. These allusions help support Paul’s imagery and show that he’s building on long-standing biblical themes.

Here are the most relevant ones:

Jeremiah 11:16
“The Lord once called you a green olive tree, beautiful with good fruit. But with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.”

This is the clearest Old Testament reference that Paul is echoing.

It explicitly refers to Israel as a green olive tree, just like in Romans 11.

It also includes the idea of judgment—some branches being burned or cut off.

2. Hosea 14:5–6
“I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon... His beauty shall be like the olive tree.”

Again, Israel is compared to an olive tree—beautiful and fruitful when faithful.

Hosea often speaks of restoration, just like Paul does in Romans 11 regarding Israel’s eventual return.

3. Isaiah 5:1–7 – The Song of the Vineyard
“The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah are his pleasant planting…”

Here, Israel is God’s vineyard—another plant-based metaphor for God’s people.

God tends it with care, but when it yields wild grapes (sin), judgment comes.

4. Psalm 52:8
“But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God. I trust in the steadfast love of God forever and ever.”

A personal expression of faith, identifying oneself as part of God's faithful people—as a green olive tree planted in His presence.

Theological Implication:
These passages all reflect the idea that God’s people—Israel—were planted by Him. Paul, in Romans 11, draws on this heritage and expands it to include Gentile believers as wild branches being grafted in. But the tree is still the same tree—rooted in the covenant with Abraham, sustained through the Law and prophets, and fulfilled in Christ.

Paul refers to not Israel, but repentant individual Jews that accept Christ, and Gentiles that accept Christ. Romans 9:6-13
Israel, as a nation is rejected. Matthew 23:37; Matthew 21:42-44
Also, the Gentiles were not of old, but those who accepted Christ, starting with the household of Cornelius.
This takes us back to the illustration here.

Haven't you gone off course though by refusing to answer simple questions, and ignoring posts dealing with the subject?
A lot of time doesn't need to be spent arguing on scripture.

In Hebrew, the equivalent of "saint" can be expressed as קדוש (kodesh), which means "holy" or "holy one". The term also implies "set apart" or "separated" for a special purpose. Another related term is חסיד (chasiyd), which translates to "faithful, godly, or saint"

Yes, and...?
Where does that apply to Abraham onward?
The only people who were considered a special property, was the nation of Israel, which lost the privilege by breaking the covenant, thus being replaced by the special property. 1 Peter 2:7-10

Again... the illustration.
There is no need to argue this point, when it is addressed by simply answering specific questions.... which evidently you don't want to answer.

Is that not how we get the phrase "talking past each other"?

 

[Mercy Shown]

Paul refers to not Israel, but repentant individual Jews that accept Christ, and Gentiles that accept Christ. Romans 9:6-13
Israel, as a nation is rejected. Matthew 23:37; Matthew 21:42-44

I don't believe so. Paul is referring to God, who is the root and foundation of His people. Since both Jews and Gentiles can be grafted into the root, it is evident that if the Children of Israel were drinking from the rock, which was Jesus Christ, then Christ's people extend from Eden onward into eternity. There is an equivalence between God's people in the Old Testament and those in the New Testament. It is all through Paul's epistles. Even in Hebrews 11, the famous faith chapter, we see no distinction being made between those in the OT and those in the NT.

Also, the Gentiles were not of old, but those who accepted Christ, starting with the household of Cornelius.
This takes us back to the illustration here.

I don't know what you mean here.

Haven't you gone off course though by refusing to answer simple questions, and ignoring posts dealing with the subject?
A lot of time doesn't need to be spent arguing on scripture.

No, this is one of the pillars of your premise. By demonstrating the deep flaws in it, your premise collapses. Out of curiosity, which question are you referring to? As far as I know, I have answered every one of your questions.

Yes, and...?
Where does that apply to Abraham onward?
The only people who were considered a special property, was the nation of Israel, which lost the privilege by breaking the covenant, thus being replaced by the special property. 1 Peter 2:7-10

Again... the illustration.
There is no need to argue this point, when it is addressed by simply answering specific questions.... which evidently you don't want to answer.

Is that not how we get the phrase "talking past each other"?

 

[Hawkins]

More often, ancient Jewish writings are in a perspective of God's absolute sovereignty. The big picture is, in a realm without God, the most evil and the most powerful will finally rule. Satan is called "the god of this world", from this perspective earth should be categorized as a hell. It's not yet fully hellish simply because God has an unfinished job here on earth, which is to save His sheep. On the other hand, God can be harmed, not in a physical sense though. God is deeply harmed when His own creatures choose to sin. God can be harmed even more severely by something else, that's actually why He never actually left His true name to humans and Jesus will have New Name after the Final Judgment.

Heaven is a place where no one gets hurt, including God. The wicked are said to be in an absolute separation from God, that is, whatever they do they won't be able to harm God. They are cut from the knowledge of God (yes, this doesn't conflict omniscience if you can grasp its correct concept). The wicked are thus in a world without God where the most evil and the most capable rules, he happens to be Satan. Moreover, planet earth and this universe are never a true nature, they are God-made. The true nature shall be full of energy and unexpected fire which are out of Satan's capability to handle. Earth with its space at the end will inevitably run into the so-called "eternal fire". In my opinion, the true torment comes from being ruled by Satan. The 'fire' may actually provide a 'relief', as possibly the design of a human soul is more or less like a surge breaker that it shuts down by itself when hit by an extreme.

As in the case of King David, prophets are put under a Covenant of Faith. Why faith and repentance are important? To a certain extent, they signifies the human capability of being correctable when we all sinned. This capability leads them to be holy in Heaven without harming God.

 

[CoreyD]

I don't believe so.

You don't believe what... that the nation of Israel broke the covenant and were rejected as the scriptures say (Matthew 23:37; Matthew 21:42-44), being replaced by the new nation - the Israel of God (Romans 9:6-13)?
Wouldn't that pit you against scripture?

 

[CoreyD]

More often, ancient Jewish writings are in a perspective of God's absolute sovereignty. The big picture is, in a realm without God, the most evil and the most powerful will finally rule. Satan is called "the god of this world", from this perspective earth should be categorized as a hell. It's not yet fully hellish simply because God has an unfinished job here on earth, which is to save His sheep.

Jesus said his followers are no part of the world, just as he is no part of the world, John 15:19; John 17:14-18; and his kingdom is not of this world.
Jesus also said his disciples can conquer the world, just as he conquered the world. John 16:33; 1 John 5:5
So, from the scriptures, it is clear that the world is not the earth, but the system that is not of God, made up of people who are not of God. 1 John 2:15-17; James 4:4

Earth, therefore is not a problem.
There is nothing wrong with the earth. It' cannot be hell, or hellish.
It is the people that cling to Satan's things that Satan is able to control - that wicked element that God promised to remove. Both the heavenly and earthly element.

When they are gone, there will be a new system, both heavenly and earthly. 2 Peter 3:13

On the other hand, God can be harmed, not in a physical sense though. God is deeply harmed when His own creatures choose to sin. God can be harmed even more severely by something else, that's actually why He never actually left His true name to humans and Jesus will have New Name after the Final Judgment.

Heaven is a place where no one gets hurt, including God.

Did a pastor tell you this, or is this something you formulated?
There is... was a lot of hurt in heaven, before the king of kings took up kingdom power. Revelation 12:7-12
When the accuser was in heaven, it hurt the heavenly family.

Think of a family where there are rebellious children poking fun at the brothers, and making slanderous accusations, to the father.
That hurts the father, and the children.

Heaven, is not a hotel resort on a paradise world, where people go to escape a hellish place.
Heaven is home to a family of spirit sons (Psalm 115:16). Earth is home to a family of fleshly children... Until Satan - the rebellious spirit son, disrupted it.
However, God has not changed his mind about the human family.
It's his will to have a human family on earth... hence why he put things in place to accomplish it. Ephesians 1:10

The wicked are said to be in an absolute separation from God, that is, whatever they do they won't be able to harm God. They are cut from the knowledge of God (yes, this doesn't conflict omniscience if you can grasp its correct concept). The wicked are thus in a world without God where the most evil and the most capable rules, he happens to be Satan. Moreover, planet earth and this universe are never a true nature, they are God-made. The true nature shall be full of energy and unexpected fire which are out of Satan's capability to handle. Earth with its space at the end will inevitably run into the so-called "eternal fire". In my opinion, the true torment comes from being ruled by Satan. The 'fire' may actually provide a 'relief', as possibly the design of a human soul is more or less like a surge breaker that it shuts down by itself when hit by an extreme.

I was going to ask which book you were reading, but you clarified, this is your opinion.
That explains why you haven't used any scriptures.

As in the case of King David, prophets are put under a Covenant of Faith. Why faith and repentance are important? To a certain extent, they signifies the human capability of being correctable when we all sinned. This capability leads them to be holy in Heaven without harming God.

You should write a book Hawkins, and get those thoughts on paper.
People generally love reading stories, and prefer these to taking up the Bible, to actually read it.

 

[Mercy Shown]

You don't believe what... that the nation of Israel broke the covenant and were rejected as the scriptures say (Matthew 23:37; Matthew 21:42-44), being replaced by the new nation - the Israel of God (Romans 9:6-13)?
Wouldn't that pit you against scripture?

Please don’t quote me with zero context. Respond to this:

I don't believe so. Paul is referring to God, who is the root and foundation of His people. Since both Jews and Gentiles can be grafted into the root, it is evident that if the Children of Israel were drinking from the rock, which was Jesus Christ, then Christ's people extend from Eden onward into eternity. There is an equivalence between God's people in the Old Testament and those in the New Testament. It is all through Paul's epistles. Even in Hebrews 11, the famous faith chapter, we see no distinction being made between those in the OT and those in the NT.

 

[CoreyD]

Please don’t quote me with zero context. Respond to this:

You'll need to respond to what I said.
Saying something that is detached from what I said, does not address what I said.
If you want to say something else, that's okay, but if it's not taking into consideration, the full content of what I said, I won't see any need to respond to the "context" of what you said.

I see it as "Well I believe this, so it does not matter what you show me."
It's like when I asked you questions, and you do not see the need to respond to them, but just say what you believe.
I do not consider that to be a discussion. Let's talk past each other, is what I consider it to be,

Repeatedly you have said things that simply are not supported, and when I point them out scripturally, you move to something else. When I question you on them, you ignore the question, or even the entire post, and start talking about something else... that you believe.
Basically, what's in your mind.

Respond to this, and we can get back on track.

 

[Mercy Shown]

I will answer your question, and I hope you will be willing to answer mine.

I do not dismiss anything... unless it's untrue. I simply follow the scriptures.
The city New Jerusalem is not a literal structures, as can be seen from the scriptures.

You read the scriptures for yourself -Revelation 21:9-22:5; Revelation 19:7, 8, and here is your question.... Is the Lamb's wife a literal building, or the Saints, who are in a union as one with him? Please answer, at least this once.

No one need get the idea that heaven has some building that people will walk on streets of gold, as their pastors tell them.
Even the harlot - Babylon the great is s city, but no one thinks this is a literal city. Revelation 17:18-18:21
So why would anyone insist, or even suggest that New Jerusalem is a literal city, except for indoctrination?

Regarding the number 144,000, if any person claims that this number is not literal, that person is saying the number of those in heaven is either less than 144,000, or more.
In either case, they limit the number to a random number based on their own guess, or they make the number meaningless, by extending it to a number that no one can number.
Since that is attributed to the "vast crowd, too great to count", at Revelation 7:9, the text now becomes meaningless, and senseless.
It now reads,

4 And I heard the number of the sealed, a number that is unknown, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:​

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands​

The text is rendered senseless.
The number of selected anointed sons of God, and kingdom heirs - 144,000 is given specifically, and contrasts with the great multitude seen with palm branches, serving God.
The number 144,000 is not problematic, since, the verses can contain both figurative and literal things - They are "servants of our God" Revelation 7:3; They are "redeemed from the earth" Revelation 14:3; They are "following the Lamb" and they have "been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb" Revelation 14:4;

The only problem with the number 144,000 being literal, lies with those who had the idea of heavenly life drilled into them from youth, onward, by teachings which come "through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron". 1 Timothy 4:2

The truth is, the scriptures do not refer to all the saved being in heaven.
The 144,000 on Mount Zion, are not the great multitude seen at Revelation 7:9.
Both groups however, are righteous.
Only one group - the 144,000, is the Bride of Christ.

Here is my next question to you.
Since the 144,000 is not the great multitude, what reason do you have for thinking that the great multitude is on Mount Zion with the 144,000?

First of all numbers in the OT are not automatically literal many have significant meanings such as 666 or the number 7. Now perhaps you believe that the Lord has seven eyes roaming the earth. Or that there are four faced creatures in heaven. That is fine but it is just what has been drilled into your head.

Perhaps you believe there is literally 144,000 men who have never slept with women who are in heaven by themselves on Mt Zion.

The point is that you base your premise on the assumption that 144,000 is literal.

Now be that as it may, I believe that the “Great Multitude” will indeed be in the city because,

• Revelation 7:9 describes a “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,” standing before the throne and the Lamb, clothed in white robes. They are identified as those who have come out of the “great tribulation” and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
• In Revelation 21:24–27, it says that “the nations will walk by [the New Jerusalem’s] light” and that “the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it,” with verse 27 adding that only those “whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” will enter.

Since the great multitude is composed of those redeemed by Christ and made clean, and they serve God continually, they are assumed to be included among those whose names are in the Lamb’s book of life — meaning they will enter the New Jerusalem.

 

[Jermayn]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

No one goes to Heaven or Hell because they’re “good,” because, according to Jesus, there is no one good except God alone (Mark 10:18). That’s why salvation isn’t about being good or bad; it’s about being made righteous through faith in Christ.

 

[CoreyD]

First of all numbers in the OT are not automatically literal many have significant meanings such as 666 or the number 7. Now perhaps you believe that the Lord has seven eyes roaming the earth. Or that there are four faced creatures in heaven. That is fine but it is just what has been drilled into your head.

Perhaps you believe there is literally 144,000 men who have never slept with women who are in heaven by themselves on Mt Zion.

The point is that you base your premise on the assumption that 144,000 is literal.

Now be that as it may, I believe that the “Great Multitude” will indeed be in the city because,

• Revelation 7:9 describes a “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language,” standing before the throne and the Lamb, clothed in white robes. They are identified as those who have come out of the “great tribulation” and have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb.
• In Revelation 21:24–27, it says that “the nations will walk by [the New Jerusalem’s] light” and that “the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it,” with verse 27 adding that only those “whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life” will enter.

Since the great multitude is composed of those redeemed by Christ and made clean, and they serve God continually, they are assumed to be included among those whose names are in the Lamb’s book of life — meaning they will enter the New Jerusalem.

Thank you for your answer.
So, basically, you think the great multitude is entering New Jerusalem, not because the Bible say anything of that sort, but because you believe the New Jerusalem is an actual city (correct me if I am wrong. I got no answer to that for clarity) that people will go in.

The Bible however does not say that a person's name being in the book of life, means they are in New Jerusalem. So basically you believe this, not because the Bible says anything of that sort, but because you believe the New Jerusalem is an actual city (correct me if I am wrong. I got no answer to that for clarity).


The Bible... which is what I believe is the basis for truth - rather than personal feelings, and ideas, clearly shows that the 144,000 and the great multitude, do not share the same privileges.
While the 144,000 is on Mount Zion - in heaven (Hebrews 12:22), and brought from among mankind (from the earth Revelation 14:4}, as the firstfruits that are kings and priest who rule the earth (Revelation 5:9, 10), the great multitude are identified differently - as serving God, and being led to fountains of living water, and having the tears wiped from their faces. (Revelation 7:9-17)

It is clear, from the Bible... not from any human assumption, that

• the 144,000 is specific to a limited number of individuals who will be kings, priest, and judges with Jesus the high priest, king of kings, and judge, for the 1,000 year rule of the heavenly kingdom that rules earth
• the great multitude is described - not as being in heaven (Mount Zion); not as firstfruits to God; not as kings, priests and judges that rule with Christ; but as mankind, whom "the One seated on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them, and never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst; nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat.’, since the Lamb in the center of the throne will shepherd them, and He will lead them to fountains living of waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'" Revelation 7:15-17; Revelation 21:3-5

It's fascinating how the Bible corrects human assumptions and ideas.
Consider two of these...
Rather than God bringing heaven down to earth, as some might picture, the Bible explains, "the One seated on the throne will spread His tent (tabernacle) over them... and the Lamb in the center of the throne will shepherd them, and He will lead them to fountains living of waters, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes". Revelation 7:15-17
Revelation 21:3, 4 puts that this way...
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Both refer to the same group, and the same conditions.
God is with men, and the Bible explains clearly, how.

1. The Bible makes clear that New Jerusalem - the bride of Christ, is not a literal building, but rather God's spiritual house - his dwelling.
   
   Spoiler: SCRIPTURES

   Ephesians 2:19-22
   19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
   
   1 Peter 2:5, 6
   5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
   6 Therefore it is contained in Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone, a chosen precious cornerstone; and the one believing on Him, shall not be put to shame."
2. The Bible makes clear that New Jerusalem is the Saints - the body of Christ, which number 144,000, having the seal of God, and the name of God, on their forehead.
   
   Spoiler: SCRIPTURES

   Revelation 19:7, 8
   7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
   
   Revelation 21:9, 10
   9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
   
   Revelation 7:3, 4
   3 "Do not harm the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, until we shall have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
   4 And I heard the number of those having been sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, having been sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:
   
   Revelation 14:1
   Then I looked, and behold, a Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His Father’s name written on their foreheads.
   
   Revelation 3:12
   The one who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will never again leave it. Upon him I will write the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God (the new Jerusalem that comes down out of heaven from My God), and My new name.
   
   Revelation 21:2
   I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Therefore, it is the scriptures, rather than human assumption, that says God's dwelling place is New Jerusalem, which is the tent (tabernacle) spread over mankind dwelling on the earth, whose tears will be wiped from their eyes.

The Bible makes absolutely clear that kingdom of God is ruled by Jesus Christ, and the Saints. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Galatians 3:16, 29, and that kingdom will judge mankind Luke 22:28-30; Revelation 7:4-8, and bring peace to the earth. Isaiah 9:6, 7
So, indeed, it is the Bible that tells us, there are two groups of the righteous, and two destinations of the righteous -

• one group... a limited number, is specifically chosen by God, for the purpose of ruling as kings and serving as priests in God's kingdom.
• the other group lives on the earth made new, where tears, pain and death, will be no more, but they will be led to fountains of living waters, thus living for all eternity, under God's kingdom. 1 Corinthians 15:28

So, rather than it being heaven or hell, the Bible tells us, it's heaven for a limited few, earth for an unnumbered billions, or eternal death - the second.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Thank you for your answer.
So, basically, you think the great multitude is entering New Jerusalem, not because the Bible say anything of that sort, but because you believe the New Jerusalem is an actual city (correct me if I am wrong. I got no answer to that for clarity) that people will go in.

There are two parts to your question here. 1. Do I believe that the New Jerusalem is a physical city and 2. Do I believe all saved people will enter into to it. Let me start with number 1. I believe that the New Jerusalem is both a metaphor and a physical city. Why do I believe it is a physical city?

Because The New Jerusalem, is described vividly in the final chapters of the Bible, which has inspired countless interpretations over the centuries. While some view it as a symbolic representation of the Church or spiritual perfection, a close reading of Scripture suggests that the New Jerusalem is not merely a metaphor, but a literal, physical city. The biblical text presents detailed dimensions, material descriptions, and interactions that support the view of a real city descending from heaven to become the eternal dwelling place of God and His people.

Detailed Physical Description in Revelation
Revelation 21 provides an extraordinarily detailed account of the New Jerusalem’s appearance. John writes, “The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide… 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long” (Revelation 21:16). This amounts to approximately 1,400 to 1,500 miles in each direction, including its height—a measurement that defies symbolic interpretation due to its geometric specificity.

Further, the city is described as being constructed of tangible materials: “The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass” (Revelation 21:18). The foundations are adorned with twelve precious stones, and the twelve gates are each made from a single pearl (verses 19–21). Such extensive material details are unusual if the intent is purely symbolic. The precision of these descriptions suggests a real, physical place.

Jesus’ Promise of a Prepared Place
In John 14:2–3, Jesus comforts His disciples with a promise: “In my Father's house are many rooms… I go to prepare a place for you.” The Greek word used for “place” (topos) refers to a specific location. Jesus speaks of an actual dwelling prepared for believers, not a vague spiritual state or metaphorical concept. This aligns with the later vision of the New Jerusalem as the place where God and humanity will dwell together eternally.

The Faith of Abraham in a Literal City
The idea of a literal heavenly city is not confined to Revelation. Hebrews 11:10 tells us that Abraham “was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.” The writer of Hebrews reinforces this idea in verse 16: “Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” This expectation of a tangible city—built by God Himself—is echoed in the vision of the New Jerusalem, suggesting continuity in God’s plan from the Old Testament through the New.

A City that Descends to Earth
Revelation 21:2–3 states: “I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… And I heard a loud voice… saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people.’” The language of descent indicates spatial movement and implies that the city will be situated on a renewed Earth. If the city were purely symbolic, such a description would be unnecessary and misleading. Instead, the text portrays a physical relocation of the divine dwelling to Earth, culminating in an eternal union between God and redeemed humanity.

Nations and Kings Interact with the City
Revelation 21:24–26 describes the nations walking by the light of the city, and the kings of the Earth bringing their glory and honor into it. These verses suggest that there will be real political or cultural structures interacting with the city, pointing again to its literal existence. The presence of nations and kings implies a functioning society centered around a physical capital—the New Jerusalem.

Conclusion
The biblical evidence supports the view that the New Jerusalem is not simply a symbol of spiritual ideals or the Church, but a real, physical city. The vivid descriptions in Revelation, the promises of Christ, and the faith of the patriarchs all point toward a literal fulfillment of God’s plan to dwell with His people in a tangible, eternal home. Far from being abstract, the New Jerusalem is portrayed as the climactic realization of God’s redemptive work—a city with foundations, built by God, descending to Earth to usher in the fullness of His kingdom.

Your postulation that the the great multitude will be excluded is not found anywhere in scripture.

 

[CoreyD]

There are two parts to your question here. 1. Do I believe that the New Jerusalem is a physical city and 2. Do I believe all saved people will enter into to it. Let me start with number 1. I believe that the New Jerusalem is both a metaphor and a physical city. Why do I believe it is a physical city?

Because The New Jerusalem, is described vividly in the final chapters of the Bible, which has inspired countless interpretations over the centuries. While some view it as a symbolic representation of the Church or spiritual perfection, a close reading of Scripture suggests that the New Jerusalem is not merely a metaphor, but a literal, physical city. The biblical text presents detailed dimensions, material descriptions, and interactions that support the view of a real city descending from heaven to become the eternal dwelling place of God and His people.

Detailed Physical Description in Revelation
Revelation 21 provides an extraordinarily detailed account of the New Jerusalem’s appearance. John writes, “The city was laid out like a square, as long as it was wide… 12,000 stadia in length, and as wide and high as it is long” (Revelation 21:16). This amounts to approximately 1,400 to 1,500 miles in each direction, including its height—a measurement that defies symbolic interpretation due to its geometric specificity.

Further, the city is described as being constructed of tangible materials: “The wall was made of jasper, and the city of pure gold, as pure as glass” (Revelation 21:18). The foundations are adorned with twelve precious stones, and the twelve gates are each made from a single pearl (verses 19–21). Such extensive material details are unusual if the intent is purely symbolic. The precision of these descriptions suggests a real, physical place.

Jesus’ Promise of a Prepared Place
In John 14:2–3, Jesus comforts His disciples with a promise: “In my Father's house are many rooms… I go to prepare a place for you.” The Greek word used for “place” (topos) refers to a specific location. Jesus speaks of an actual dwelling prepared for believers, not a vague spiritual state or metaphorical concept. This aligns with the later vision of the New Jerusalem as the place where God and humanity will dwell together eternally.

The Faith of Abraham in a Literal City
The idea of a literal heavenly city is not confined to Revelation. Hebrews 11:10 tells us that Abraham “was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.” The writer of Hebrews reinforces this idea in verse 16: “Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.” This expectation of a tangible city—built by God Himself—is echoed in the vision of the New Jerusalem, suggesting continuity in God’s plan from the Old Testament through the New.

A City that Descends to Earth
Revelation 21:2–3 states: “I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God… And I heard a loud voice… saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people.’” The language of descent indicates spatial movement and implies that the city will be situated on a renewed Earth. If the city were purely symbolic, such a description would be unnecessary and misleading. Instead, the text portrays a physical relocation of the divine dwelling to Earth, culminating in an eternal union between God and redeemed humanity.

Nations and Kings Interact with the City
Revelation 21:24–26 describes the nations walking by the light of the city, and the kings of the Earth bringing their glory and honor into it. These verses suggest that there will be real political or cultural structures interacting with the city, pointing again to its literal existence. The presence of nations and kings implies a functioning society centered around a physical capital—the New Jerusalem.

Conclusion
The biblical evidence supports the view that the New Jerusalem is not simply a symbol of spiritual ideals or the Church, but a real, physical city. The vivid descriptions in Revelation, the promises of Christ, and the faith of the patriarchs all point toward a literal fulfillment of God’s plan to dwell with His people in a tangible, eternal home. Far from being abstract, the New Jerusalem is portrayed as the climactic realization of God’s redemptive work—a city with foundations, built by God, descending to Earth to usher in the fullness of His kingdom.

Your postulation that the the great multitude will be excluded is not found anywhere in scripture.

It sounds like the argument you made here, in the first three paragraphs, you have decided to ignore it... in your case... as well as the scriptures that go against your arguments.

 

[Mercy Shown]

It sounds like the argument you made here, in the first three paragraphs, you have decided to ignore it... in your case... as well as the scriptures that go against your arguments.

This is a non-answer. Where are your scriptures, you offer zero support for your opinion. Perhaps you could attempt to refute what I posted rather than just dismiss it.

 

[CoreyD]

This is a non-answer. Where are your scriptures, you offer zero support for your opinion. Perhaps you could attempt to refute what I posted rather than just dismiss it.

If this is a non-answer, then are you not saying your post was a non-answer?
Also, you aren't speaking the truth, are you.

Did I not show you scriptures. Plenty... and not opinions?
You are simply trying to use reverse psychology here.
Is it not you who have constantly dismissed the scriptures and ignored the posts. Please be honest.
I have not ignored your post. I addressed your responses... as I do here.

Here is the truth.
The scriptures factually do not show your beliefs that

1. the city is literal;
2. the great multitude is in New Jerusalem;
3. the people on the earth are in the city coming down from heaven, and spread over them like a tent;
4. the city, New Jerusalem is on earth.

These are merely claims.
So, to be fair, here is a second chance to demonstrate otherwise.

1. I showed you the scriptures where the city is not literal, and I asked you directly if Christ is married to a building... both of which you never responded. If you believe the city is a literal building, then you also believe Christ's wife is a building. Do you say yes?
2. I showed the scriptures which show the great multitude is not on Mount Zion; Not rulers in the kingdom, nor priests; has a tent spread out over them, and the tears wiped from their eyes, as Revelation 21:3, 4 confirms, referring to them as mankind.... and your response was? Ignore. Do you have a response?
3. New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven and is spread out as a tent over mankind that is on the earth. How can those on earth be in the New Jerusalem when it is a tent over them?
4. Which scripture in the Bible says New Jerusalem is on earth, or is that your assumption?

Let's the truth be seen.

 

[Mercy Shown]

If this is a non-answer, then are you not saying your post was a non-answer?
Also, you aren't speaking the truth, are you.

More non-answers to support your non-answer. I’m sure you aware that ad hominem attacks are logical fallacies because they are designed to discredit a person rather than the the argument.

Did I not show you scriptures. Plenty... and not opinions?

Not in response to the post you were responding to. You had no answer for that one.

You are simply trying to use reverse psychology here.
Is it not you who have constantly dismissed the scriptures and ignored the posts. Please be honest.
I have not ignored your post. I addressed your responses... as I do here.

No you did not. You did not address that post at all.

Here is the truth.
The scriptures factually do not show your beliefs that

1. the city is literal;
2. the great multitude is in New Jerusalem;
3. the people on the earth are in the city coming down from heaven, and spread over them like a tent;
4. the city, New Jerusalem is on earth.

These are merely claims.
So, to be fair, here is a second chance to demonstrate otherwise.

Yours are merely claims. You have not refuted a single argument I’ve made accept by simply stating that they are false. Big red x’s are not arguments.

1. I showed you the scriptures where the city is not literal, and I asked you directly if Christ is married to a building... both of which you never responded. If you believe the city is a literal building, then you also believe Christ's wife is a building. Do you say yes?

It was a sophomoric question which I assumed was rhetorical. It’s like me asking you if Christ is married to 144,000 virgin men? So do you think Christ is marrying 144, 000 virgin men?

1. I showed the scriptures which show the great multitude is not on Mount Zion; Not rulers in the kingdom, nor priests; has a tent spread out over them, and the tears wiped from their eyes, as Revelation 21:3, 4 confirms, referring to them as mankind.... and your response was? Ignore. Do you have a response?

Answer to what? The text plainly say, God will dwell with men. You showed me no such text. There is no text that says “the Great multitude is not on Mt. Zion.

1. New Jerusalem is coming down out of heaven and is spread out as a tent over mankind that is on the earth. How can those on earth be in the New Jerusalem when it is a tent over them?
2. Which scripture in the Bible says New Jerusalem is on earth, or is that your assumption?

Let's the truth be seen.

"Therefore the redeemed of the LORD shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head" (Isaiah 51:11)

 

[BobRyan]

It's one or the other.

Have you heard this before?
Growing up, I have heard this, multiple times.... "The good go the heaven. The bad go to hell. One place (heaven) is rejoicing and bliss. The other place (Hell), is torment and anguish

kind of like Rom 2:4-16

Matt 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

... eternally."

Then in my early 20s, I came to learn that this is not true at all. Thanks be to God.
All good people do not go to heaven, and bad people do not experience literal torment and anguish eternally.

What is interesting, is that I learned this truth from the Bible... the same book persons claim teaches the opposite.
What should you believe - (A) All good people go do heaven, and all bad people go to hell. Or (B) All good people do not go to heaven, and both bad and good people go to "hell"?

What the Bible says, is that B is correct, and A is not true.
This is very important to know, because it opens the door for us to know the truth, as taught in the Bible, and reveals the truth about our loved ones that have died, and their future, and ours.

Let's look at it together

There is a good vs bad comparison in Rom 2 that deserves careful consideration

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

.
Let's start by asking three questions ...

1. Was King David a good man?
2. When King David died, did he go to heaven?
3. Where is King David now?

1. Good
2. did he go? or "will" he go? which question do you really mean to ask?
3. Acts 2 - says he is in the grave.

1 Thess 4:13-18 talks about a point when the saints are raptured to heaven
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.