Heaven Or Hell

[SabbathBlessings]

Believing a lie like that, is in Satan's favor, as it paints God as the most cruel individual, since it claims he tortures people, not only momentarily, but eternally.
No human has ever been torture their whole life, so that teaching makes humans more righteous than God.
No human would even think of burning a child on the hand for a wicked deed.
Yet, people claim that God tortures his children for wicked acts... even acts done in ignorance.
Nothing makes the Devil more happy. So, this must be the most dangerous lie ever told.
I think I am discovering that Tonne and I disagree on more than 50% teachings.

Its was the very first lie in the Garden. Surely you shall not die Gen 3:4 , when God said the opposite Gen 2:17. Sadly, this lie is still working deceiving so many.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

@1Tonne @CoreyD @SabbathBlessings

This is an interesting video I saw on the forums here What Near-Death Survivors Can Teach Us About Heaven and Hell...

Over 1500 people who had clinically died were interviewed, they went into both heaven and hell. This video gives a good overview.

 

[CoreyD]

Jesus meant they had Moses teachings, and the teachings of the prophets, not that Moses was alive.

So, you are saying that Moses is not real, but the brothers of the rich man are real... and Abraham is real... Why?
In that case, nothing you believe is ever wrong, because whatever you want something to be, that is what it is.
I'm not able to discuss the Bible with such individuals. Can you appreciate that.
Turn the tables, if you don't see. Put yourself in my shoes, and be me.

Jesus is telling a real story, a real event. However, there is one character in the story that isn't real. Only he represents something. None of the others represents something... in a parable - A comparison; a similitude; specifically, a short fictitious narrative of something which might really occur in life or nature, by means of which a moral is drawn.

Yes, the story of the Prodigal Son is a Parable. But is uses real-life things like a father, two sons, and pigs. Jesus never used fiction in His parables.

The people in Jesus's story, about Lazurus and the rich man, may be fake. But the reality of hell fire, the concepts being taught are true. Hell is so hot and it's punishment is so severe that even a drop of water would be soothing.

So, you admit to being wrong in saying... .As I mentioned Jesus never used a "fake" story, as a parable, he used real ones.
That's all we need FAH.

What is happening here relates to what is happening mentally.
Take care.

 

[CoreyD]

@1Tonne @CoreyD @SabbathBlessings

This is an interesting video I saw on the forums here What Near-Death Survivors Can Teach Us About Heaven and Hell...

Over 1500 people who had clinically died were interviewed, they went into both heaven and hell. This video gives a good overview.

Don't you believe the Devil is real FAH?
Why then would you post a video, as if the people who believe this, are immune to deception?
We only need the Bible FAH.

Note what Paul warned fellow Christians...
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

If Paul warns not to listen even to an angel saying something contrary to scripture, how much more so, should we shun humans saying something contrary to scripture.
The Devil has ministers here on earth. 2 Corinthians 11:15

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Don't you believe the Devil is real FAH?
Why then would you post a video, as if the people who believe this, are immune to deception?
We only need the Bible FAH.

Note what Paul warned fellow Christians...
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

If Paul warns not to listen even to an angel saying something contrary to scripture, how much more so, should we shun humans saying something contrary to scripture.
The Devil has ministers here on earth. 2 Corinthians 11:15

They agree with Jesus. Who taught hell fire.

Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'​

Mat 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

You said that the doctrine of hell fire is of the Devil. It is actually of Jesus. Jesus has provided us the way to escape hell, we must humbly accept it, not focus on the death of the wicked.

 

[CoreyD]

They agree with Jesus. Who taught hell fire.

Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'​

Mat 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

You said that the doctrine of hell fire is of the Devil. It is actually of Jesus. Jesus has provided us the way to escape hell, we must humbly accept it, not focus on the death of the wicked.

In my reading of the Bible, I read Jesus saying... And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

There, Jesus used two words understood by 5 year old children - kill, and destroy.
From my conversation with you, those words do not mean kill and destroy... Am I right.
So, Jesus did not mean destroy. He meant torture.

Huh?

Uh... Okay, then.

Say What?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

In my reading of the Bible, I read Jesus saying... And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

There, Jesus used two words understood by 5 year old children - kill, and destroy.
From my conversation with you, those words do not mean kill and destroy... Am I right.
So, Jesus did not mean destroy. He meant torture.

Huh?

Uh... Okay, then.

Say What?

Let's look at each scripture "carefully".

Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'​

First scripture, how can you have hands and feet in hell if you do not exist. Note the corruption "worm" also never goes away.

Mat 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

How can a person who does not exist anymore "weep, and wail"?

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

​

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

We see people and devils are "tormented" day and night forever. Now let's return to Jesus words:

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

Is he lying or telling the truth?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Bible says hellfire will not be quenched and “their worm does not die.” (See Mark 9:43–48 and Isaiah 66:24.) Doesn’t this show that the soul is immortal?

Even if we should agree that “unquenched” means endlessly burning, we would not find it necessary to accept the doctrine that at death an immortal soul is freed from man and lives apart from the body. These texts do not speak of disembodied souls, or spirits, burning. The Bible paints a picture of literal, wicked people at the judgment day being “cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

Christ spoke of the “whole body” being “cast into hell” (Matthew 5:29, 30.) If someone replies that the body would be destroyed by the flames and that the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible evidence that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire. Christ declared we should “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). If “destroy” means consumed regarding the body, is it logical to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed regarding the soul?

In Mark 9:43–48, Christ evidently referred to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: “They [the righteous] shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched.” We are told in so many words that the agencies of “worm” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies—dead bodies.

The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43–48 is from the Greek word gehenna, or geenna. This term is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.)

Christ used this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate awaiting the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls suffering endlessly. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Hinnom were always kept burning—were “not quenched”—was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be consumed. To declare that a fire is kept ever burning and that whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary to the evidence of our senses and of Scripture.

You may ask, If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, It will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago is still burning? No—you would understand that the fire raged until it ran out of fuel. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the statement that the fire died down of itself.

It is this natural sense of the word “quench” that the Bible uses. Through the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord declared to the ancient Jews, “I will kindle a fire … and it shall not be quenched” (Jeremiah 17:27). (The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses the same Greek root for “quenched” as is used in Mark 9:43–48.) In 2 Chronicles 36:19–21, we read of this prophecy’s literal fulfillment when the Babylonians put the torch to the city. Is that fire still burning? Are those Jewish “palaces” ever consuming, but never quite consumed? Preposterous, you say. Then why should anyone wish to take Christ’s statement in Mark 9 and force from it the conclusion that the judgment fire will never end, and then build upon this conclusion that the wicked will be ever consuming but never quite consumed, and then finally perch upon this the conclusion that therefore the wicked have immortal souls?

Each and every one of these conclusions is unwarranted by logic and is contrary to Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that souls are immortal but declares that “the soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4). Nowhere does the Bible say that the wicked will be ever consuming; instead it declares that they will become “ashes” (Malachi 4:3).

The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God’s setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates “a new earth.” (See 2 Peter 3:7–13; Revelation 20:15; 21:1.) There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not be recreated. The very promise of God to give us a new earth “in which righteousness dwells” is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires.


Matthew 25:41 speaks of “everlasting fire” for the wicked. Does it go out?
Yes. According to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned these ancient cities “into ashes” as a warning to “those who afterward would live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effect of the fire is everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Their Worm Does Not Die | Hell Truth

The Bible says hellfire will not be quenched and their worm does not die. Doesn't this show that the soul is immortal?

www.helltruth.com

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Bible says hellfire will not be quenched and “their worm does not die.” (See Mark 9:43–48 and Isaiah 66:24.) Doesn’t this show that the soul is immortal?

Even if we should agree that “unquenched” means endlessly burning, we would not find it necessary to accept the doctrine that at death an immortal soul is freed from man and lives apart from the body. These texts do not speak of disembodied souls, or spirits, burning. The Bible paints a picture of literal, wicked people at the judgment day being “cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

Christ spoke of the “whole body” being “cast into hell” (Matthew 5:29, 30.) If someone replies that the body would be destroyed by the flames and that the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible evidence that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire. Christ declared we should “fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28). If “destroy” means consumed regarding the body, is it logical to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed regarding the soul?

In Mark 9:43–48, Christ evidently referred to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: “They [the righteous] shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched.” We are told in so many words that the agencies of “worm” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies—dead bodies.

The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43–48 is from the Greek word gehenna, or geenna. This term is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.)

Christ used this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate awaiting the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls suffering endlessly. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Hinnom were always kept burning—were “not quenched”—was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be consumed. To declare that a fire is kept ever burning and that whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary to the evidence of our senses and of Scripture.

You may ask, If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, It will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago is still burning? No—you would understand that the fire raged until it ran out of fuel. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the statement that the fire died down of itself.

It is this natural sense of the word “quench” that the Bible uses. Through the prophet Jeremiah, the Lord declared to the ancient Jews, “I will kindle a fire … and it shall not be quenched” (Jeremiah 17:27). (The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament, uses the same Greek root for “quenched” as is used in Mark 9:43–48.) In 2 Chronicles 36:19–21, we read of this prophecy’s literal fulfillment when the Babylonians put the torch to the city. Is that fire still burning? Are those Jewish “palaces” ever consuming, but never quite consumed? Preposterous, you say. Then why should anyone wish to take Christ’s statement in Mark 9 and force from it the conclusion that the judgment fire will never end, and then build upon this conclusion that the wicked will be ever consuming but never quite consumed, and then finally perch upon this the conclusion that therefore the wicked have immortal souls?

Each and every one of these conclusions is unwarranted by logic and is contrary to Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that souls are immortal but declares that “the soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:4). Nowhere does the Bible say that the wicked will be ever consuming; instead it declares that they will become “ashes” (Malachi 4:3).

The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God’s setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates “a new earth.” (See 2 Peter 3:7–13; Revelation 20:15; 21:1.) There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not be recreated. The very promise of God to give us a new earth “in which righteousness dwells” is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires.


Matthew 25:41 speaks of “everlasting fire” for the wicked. Does it go out?
Yes. According to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned these ancient cities “into ashes” as a warning to “those who afterward would live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effect of the fire is everlasting, but not the burning itself.

Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?
Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

Their Worm Does Not Die | Hell Truth

The Bible says hellfire will not be quenched and their worm does not die. Doesn't this show that the soul is immortal?

www.helltruth.com

You have gone to a lot of work to talk about all of this but you miss totally the scripture:

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

How can a destroyed being "wail and gnash their teeth"?

Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

How can a destroyed soul and body be "tormented" in God's presence?

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

They are also "tormented" day and night. So let's return to the key scripture, what is torment?:

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You have gone to a lot of work to talk about all of this but you miss totally the scripture:

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

How can a destroyed being "wail and gnash their teeth"?

Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

How can a destroyed soul and body be "tormented" in God's presence?

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

They are also "tormented" day and night. So let's return to the key scripture, what is torment?:

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

As we see clearly from the example of Sodom, the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal, death, no eternal punishing.

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

If there was a city on earth burning for thousands of years, we would know about it.

The same will happen for the wicked at Judgement

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Its one sad doctrine to believe God will torment people forever and ever and ever,. It's not the God I worship, My Jesus tells me those who do not believe perish, John 3:16 the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23 not eternal torment and immortality , saying one never dies is the same deceit that worked in the garden.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. All gets sorted out soon enough.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

As we see clearly from the example of Sodom, the fire goes out. The punishment is eternal, death, no eternal punishing.

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

If there was a city on earth burning for thousands of years, we would know about it.

The same will happen for the wicked at Judgement

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

Its one sad doctrine to believe God will torment people forever and ever and ever,. It's not the God I worship, My Jesus tells me those who do not believe perish, John 3:16 the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23 not eternal torment and immortality , saying one never dies is the same deceit that worked in the garden.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. All gets sorted out soon enough.

Jude 1:7 is not talking about the fire that fell on the city, but rather states what happened to the people in that city, they are now in hell eternally.

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't see your statement

Jude 1:7 is not talking about the fire that fell on the city, but rather states what happened to the people in that city, they are now in hell eternally.

As what the scriptures states.....it does not say they went to hell and are still burning

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The bible explains Itself if we allow it to

2 Peter 2:6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;

Like what happens after the hellfire of the wicked, thus saith the Lord

Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the LORD of hosts.

 

[1Tonne]

Is a child that ignorantly follows another, and smokes weed, wicked?
Is the woman that learns to be a professional boxer, wicked?
Is the soldier that believes he should fight for his country, and takes many lives wicked?

How do you define unrighteous, and what does it mean to be wicked?

What do you mean by wicked?

That's your opinion Tonne.

Even the Psalmist thought he was a worm. It is a great example of how the word was used back in that time. Even today some people still call someone who is considered to be an underhand type of person, a "worm". It would be your opinion that the word is not being used in this way when we see that it was.

Do you believe the Bible contradicts itself?
How are they conscious, when wise King Solomon said they are not; His father David said they are not; His father, Jesus Christ, said they are not.
If you read these verses figuratively, instead of literally, would there be any conflict with the scriptures? No.
There is therefore the possibility you are indeed misunderstanding these verse, would you agree.

The teaching of hellfire originated because of man's justice... believing that death is too "easy" for the wicked.
One person told me that the wicked cannot just die, after doing so much wickedness.
They become judge, you see... thinking that they are so righteous.
Jesus warned that such judges will have judgment. Matthew 7:1

I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. However, we must carefully examine all of Scripture to see what it truly teaches.
I believe that when we die, we go into the grave where we have no consciousness—our thoughts perish, and we know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4). However, on the last day, Jesus will raise us from the grave, restoring our consciousness (John 5:28-29).

The idea that people suffer in hell immediately after death conflicts with the biblical teaching that the dead sleep until the resurrection. The final judgment and punishment of the wicked occur after they are raised, not while they remain in the grave. When Revelation speaks of eternal fire and torment, it refers to the final destruction of the wicked, not their immediate suffering upon death.

The Bible says the Lake of fire is the second death.

Agreed. It is the second death. The question is, do we have consciousness in the second death? This is what we are discussing.

No Tonne. It dishonors God, and makes him out to be worst that Hitler.

Many people struggle with the idea of eternal punishment because they compare God’s justice to human justice. But God is not like us—He is infinitely holy, infinitely just, and infinitely worthy of everlasting honour. The severity of sin is not measured by our feelings about it, but by the greatness of the One sinned against.

When people say that eternal punishment makes God "worse than Hitler," they misunderstand both the nature of sin and the nature of God. Sin is not just a mistake—it is rebellion against the very Creator of life itself. If God is infinitely great, then to reject Him is an infinitely serious offence. The Bible makes clear that those who reject Him will face everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2) and that their worm will not die (Mark 9:48), showing that their existence in punishment does not come to an end.

God is not cruel—He is perfectly just. He has provided salvation through Jesus Christ so that no one has to face this judgment. Those who reject His mercy choose the consequences of their own rebellion. If eternal punishment seems too harsh, it is not because God is unjust, but because we fail to grasp how glorious and holy He truly is.

It seems to me that the real issue here is not the severity of the punishment, but a failure to grasp the majesty of God. If someone believes that eternal punishment is unjust, it is because they do not truly see how glorious, holy, and infinitely worthy of honour God is. When we diminish God's greatness, we naturally diminish the seriousness of sin and the punishment for it. But the Bible does not lower God's standard to fit human reasoning—it exalts His holiness and perfect justice.

None of those scriptures say Jesus reigns from earth.
Try these...
The kingdom is in heaven - Matthew uses the expression Kingdom of the heaven 32 times. Daniel 7:13, 14, 27, presents the receiving of kingdom power in heaven. Jesus promises places in heaven for those who will rule with him. John 14:1-4. Those with the heavenly hope, expected to be in heaven forever. 2 Corinthians 5:1-3; Philippians 3:20. The Bible refers to Heavenly Mount Zion. Hebrews 12:22; Revelation 14:1. etc.

1. Revelation 5:10 says we reign on the earth.
2. Zechariah 14 says Jesus' feet will touch the Mount of Olives and He will reign as king over all the earth.
3. Daniel 7:27 shows the kingdom given to saints under heaven.
4. Revelation 20 describes resurrected saints reigning with Christ. We see in Revelation that the martyr's souls are already alive in heaven as they are already praising God. So, if they are already alive spiritually, then the resurrection has to be physical.
5. Luke 19:17 speaks of ruling cities, implying an earthly reign.

While Jesus receives His kingdom in heaven (Daniel 7:13-14), the Bible consistently shows that He will reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10, Zechariah 14, and Daniel 7:27 all make it clear that the kingdom involves dominion under heaven and over the earth. If the millennium is only in heaven, why does Jesus return to the Mount of Olives? Why does He give believers authority over cities? And why does Revelation say the saints reign on earth? A purely heavenly reign contradicts these passages.

 

[1Tonne]

You're leaving out a very important part of this passage for some reason

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I can see your issue now. You are interpreting Revelation 20:4 wrong. It does not say that those who return and reign with Him are anyone who is martyred, or anyone who has the word of God, or anyone who had not worshipped the beast, or anyone who did not get the mark. If read this way, which is a poor way to interpret it, then it would look as though this is talking about all the believers.
But it is specifically the martyrs in Rev 20:4.

So, I only mentioned the martyrs because the entire thing is about the martyrs being judged and then reigning with Christ. No one else reigns with them. They are killed because of their witness of Jesus and for the word of God and they did not worship the beast or his image.
This passage clearly refers to martyred believers, not all Christians.

Why Revelation 20:4 Refers Only to the Martyrs:
-The verse specifically describes those who were beheaded and refused the mark of the beast.
-It contrasts them with "the rest of the dead," implying other believers and non-believers remain dead.
-There is no biblical evidence that all believers reign during a 1,000-year period before the final resurrection.
-The Greek grammar supports one unified group—not separate groups.
-The phrase "beheaded" limits this to martyrs.
-Revelation 6:9-11 confirms this is a specific group of tribulation martyrs. When Christ returns He avenges their blood.
-Revelation 14:9-13 blesses only those who die refusing the beast’s mark—confirming that the resurrected ones are martyrs, not all believers.

These are the saved, are you saying there are only 144,000 saved? Thats not very many. The martyrs are already dead....this is about a different group. You might want to go back and study who at the end of time either has the mark of the beast or the seal of God, which is part of this group and applies to everyone at the end of time. Even Cain was "marked" by God. In the end two groups, those with God's seal, those who have the mark of the beast.

No. The 144,000 are not all the believers. There are other believers. The 144,000 are only those who have the seal of the living God to rule with Christ in the millennium. They are killed for their faith and they come back and reign with Him. There are many other believers who are not beheaded and they are saved but they do not reign with Christ. Only the martyr's reign. So, other believers will come under the martyr's authority on earth while they reign.

This is not the believers. The believers is only in the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the first resurrection Rev 12:6 There are not two resurrections for the saved, only 1 for the saved the first and one for the lost after the 1000 years.

Jesus says several times that believers are raised on the last day. And we know that the last day is the day of judgment. This is where Jesus judges the world at the GWT judgement. So, martyrs are raised early but the rest of the believers are raised on the last day.

• John 6:39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.
• John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
• Daniel 12:1-2 .....at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (The books are opened at the GWT judgement. So, the last day)

It's pretty clear that believers are raised on the last day and that the only people who return with Christ to reign for 1000 years are the martyrs. Those who reign with Him are those who have been killed for their witness of Jesus and for the word of God and they did not worship the beast or his image.

In Revelation 6:9-11 we see that the martyrs are given special white robes. These signify that the people wearing them are extra special. In Revelation 7:13, an elder asks John in his vision a rhetorical question about the martyrs to make a point. This is rhetorical because he already knows the answer and asks it to emphasize the significance of the great multitude, who are the martyrs. His question is not meant to gain information but to guide John (and the reader) toward a deeper understanding of their identity and importance.
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, ‘Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?’ And I said to him, ‘Sir, you know.’ So he said to me, ‘These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.’"
So, we know that the only people who have the white robes are the martyrs. In Revelation, there is no mention of anyone else who receives these special white robes.

Christ returns to earth with the martyrs and defeats the antichrist and his armies.
If we look at the overview of when Jesus returns to earth and defeats the antichrist with his armies, and reigns for 1000 years, we see that the people who return with Him have white clothing. So, this is the martyrs. Here is the overview in Revelation 19:11-16
"Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS."
So, this specifically mentions the martyrs returning with Him. Then after these verses, the beast and his armies are defeated. Then we have the 1000-year reign of Christ on earth with His martyrs. Christ and these martyrs reign over all the people. So, they reign over believers and non-believers.
After 1000 years, Satan is set free for a short time and then on the last day, he is defeated and all people are judged. This is when the remaining believes will be raised, judged and receive eternal life.

There are other verses that show how Jesus returns with His special elect martyrs to defeat the antichrist. His angels gather them from the four corners of heaven to battle the antichrist.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:24-27
also,
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matt 24:29-31

If all believers come back and reign with Him for 1000 years before the last day, then it obviously is not the last day. So, your eschatology is clashing with what Jesus said about believers being raised on the last day.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I can see your issue now. You are interpreting Revelation 20:4 wrong.

We all need prayerful study and read with an open heart

-The verse specifically describes those who were beheaded and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years.

Please read who either receives the seal of God or the mark of the beast- its not those who are ALREADY dead in Christ, this is a future event (and why Rev 20:4, it not only about martyrs - ALL the scripture has to harmonize) if we do not understand we will receive the mark either in the forehead meaning we know but do it anyway or the hand, by action which is implemented by the LAST beast or Kingdom - A political/religious power who is already here that puts forth a LAW or DECREE that the world makes an image to, and this law is contrary to God's much like they did to Daniel why this story is in this prophetic book bookended with Revelation . Only the beast can tell us what their mark is, and they already have.

Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act. And the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power and authority in religious matters.
—C. F. Thomas, Chancellor of Cardinal Gibbons, in answer to a letter regarding the change of the Sabbath, November 11, 1895.

Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

Which fits the prophecy in Dan 7:25, everything lines up perfectly. All the prophecy and timeline and what Jesus taught is false worship, which is what the mark of the beast is all about.

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father [a]or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people [c]draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”
(over the commandments of God, His version, God's personal will and Testimony that He wrote and He spoke. Exo 20:1-17)
In the end two groups, one who receives the mark of the beast, the other who receives the seal of God, not three groups. The lost or saved, wheat or tares Rev 22:14-15

Rev 12:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

The antidote is in the next verse....there is no scripture that's says only martyrs are saints- its anyone who keep the commandments of God (His version) and have the faith of Jesus, not just in Jesus

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

This is God's version of the commandments, not what was changed by man that sadly most follow

Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, Seal the law among my disciples. (not just martyrs)
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus [c]Christ.

-It contrasts them with "the rest of the dead," implying other believers and non-believers remain dead.

It does not say or imply believers for the second resurrection. It clearly says only the first resurrection are for those who are holy and blessed there is only ONE resurrection for those in Christ NOT two

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The second resurrection is for the dead not the dead in Christ. This is not the resurrection we want to be part of. Everyone who was not found in the Book of Life. Rev 20:5 says nothing about believers and the lost, just the dead, those not in Christ.

Those in Christ will already be with Jesus as He promised before the second resurrection occurs for the lost.

This is the last day on earth as we know it, after Jesus comes ONCE for the saved, the earth will be destroyed and Satan will have no one to tempt for the 1000 years. What we have all been waiting on, the Second Coming of Jesus Christ all our fates are already sealed Rev 22:11. There is only ONE first resurrection, those dead in Christ - those dead will rise first and those alive at the time will both meet Jesus in the air.

1 Thes 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). So its not just the dead martyrs says this clear scripture 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Both the dead in Christ first resurrection AND those alive at His Second Coming who are saved will meet Him in the air and forever be with Him including the millennium. No scripture says this event is only for the martyrs it says AND which means in addition to the martyrs in Christ i.e. all believers throughout all of history until Jesus returns.

5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

-There is no biblical evidence that all believers reign during a 1,000-year period before the final resurrection.

Rev 20 if read without adding anything to it.

 

[CoreyD]

Let's look at each scripture "carefully".

Okay. Let's do that.

Mar 9:43-48 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.' And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— where 'THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.'​

First scripture, how can you have hands and feet in hell if you do not exist. Note the corruption "worm" also never goes away.

Why do you say let's look at "each scripture", and then select the scriptures you believe support your view?
The Bible contains 66 books, and start from Genesis. So why don't we start there.

Genesis 2:17

but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”​

Genesis 3:19

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your bread, until you return to the ground—because out of it were you taken. For dust you are, and to dust you shall return.”​

So, for each of these scriptures, so that we know you are not ignoring them, or talking pat me, I want you to do two things.
Tell me

1. what the scripture is saying; and
2. if you agree with the statements made in the scripture

Then I want you to tell which of the two statements below is the lie, and who is the liar - God or Satan.

• Man dies, and return to dust. Genesis 3:19
• Man does not die, but keeps on existing, and living on. Genesis 3:4

Going forward...
Job 24:14, 15
14 If He should set His heart on it, If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,

15 All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.​

Psalm 104:29

You hide Your face, they are troubled; You take away their breath, they die and return to their dust.​

Psalm 146:3, 4

3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.​

4 His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.​

Ecclesiastes 3:19, 20

19 For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity.​

20 All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.​

Ecclesiastes 12:7

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.​

For each of the above scriptures...

1. What is the scripture saying?
2. Do you agree with the statements made in the scripture

Which of the two statements below is the lie, and who is the liar - God or Satan.

• The spirit , or breath goes out and returns to God, and man dies and returns to the earth. Genesis 3:19
• Man does not die, but keeps on existing, and living on. Genesis 3:4

Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10

5 For the living know that they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor do they have a reward any longer, for their memory is forgotten.​

10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.​

For each of the scripture above...

1. What is the scripture saying?
2. Do you agree with the statements made in the scripture

Which of the two statements below is the lie, and who is the liar - God or Satan.

• The dead are unconscious, and there is no activity in the earth, where they go. Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10
• Man does not die, but keeps on consciously existing, and actively living on. Genesis 3:4

Going forward...
Daniel 12:2

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

Matthew 9:24

He said, “Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep.” And they began laughing at Him.​

John 11:11

He said these things, and after this He says to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go that I may awaken him."​

For each of the scriptures above...

1. What is the scripture saying?
2. Do you agree with the statements made in the scripture

Which of the two statements below is the lie, and who is the liar - God or Satan.

• The dead are sleeping (figuratively), in a state of inactivity in the earth, where they go. Daniel 12:2
• Man is awake and conscious when he dies, and he is actively living on. Genesis 3:4

I'll stop here for now, lest I drown you in scripture.
Please do not rush through this, and ignore these scripture.
Please complete each text.

Mat 13:40-42 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

At the end of this age refers to the end of a system, as was the case of the destination of Jerusalem in 70 C.E.
Therefore, the gnashing of teeth, refers to the condition those find themselves in at that time, as they realize their fate.
For example...
Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Jesus uses this same terminology in his illustrations at Matthew 13:37-43; Matthew 13:47-50; Matthew 22:11-13; Matthew 25:28-30
Consider how he illustrates this point at Matthew 22:11-13.
11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. 12 So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

These verses do not refer to persons burning alive, but persons wailing in pain as they realize they have Jesus disfavor... as many in today's Christianity will wail, as they realize their destruction is imminent, and they won't get to heaven as they hope, because they did not want to believe the truth, but rather, wanted to believe the lie. Matthew 7:21-23
They cannot escape it. 2 Thessalonians 2:12, 13

Mat 13:49-50 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."​

How can a person who does not exist anymore "weep, and wail"?

See above.
Also, read the scriptures again, and realize that every scripture you dig up is an illustration, or parable.
Hmm.

Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:​

Compare this one scripture where Jesus uses fire symbolically, as he repeatedly did - Matthew 3:11, 12; Matthew 13:39-43; Matthew 18:8; Mark 9:43, with the many that directly give the condition or state of the dead.
In Mark's Gospel, Jesus refers to Gehenna, which is the Lake of fire, and fittingly so, because the lake of fire is the second death, where everything thrown there meets their death - the wild beast, and false prophet; death and "hell"; Satan and all his supporters.

So, tell me, do you agree with the angel's explanation of what the Lake of fire represents?
Revelation 20:14

• This is the second death, the lake of fire.
• This lake of fire is the second death.
• This is the second death.

How does 'hell' burn forever, and be tormented in everlasting fire?
How does death burn forever, and be tormented in everlasting fire?
How does a symbolic beast burn forever, and be tormented in everlasting fire?

Only if the fire is symbolic - a representation of.... as the angel said, death, does the scripture fit.
It does, because Jesus said there is where the soul and body is destroyed.
To destroy something, is to completely remove it.

So, death; 'hell' - rather, the common grave, man's home at death; the beast - manmade world governmental powers; the false prophet - lying organizations, including the biggest of them all - religion not of God; Satan the Devil, and all his followers, including religious people who like to listen to Satan's lies that misrepresent God... these will all be gone - Destroyed in the symbolic Lake of fire.

Do you dispute that destroy means what we know it to mean?

Rev 14:10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.​

​

Rev 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

We see people and devils are "tormented" day and night forever. Now let's return to Jesus words:

Luk 16:22-31 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Abraham said to him, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' But he said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.' "​

Is he lying or telling the truth?

Telling the truth can involve using symbolism.
Jesus used symbolism both, when he was on earth teaching, and when he went to heaven, and sent John the Revelation.
If you disagree with this, please show from scripture that this is not true.
If you agree that it is true, please explain why you would choose to dismiss the more than one dozen scriptures that tells us the dead do not feel pain, or communicate, or do anything in the earth, where they go, for scripture that can easily be understood symbolically.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

everything that He has given Me I will lose nothing, but will raise it up on the last day.

• John 6:40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 6:54 The one who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
• John 11:24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”
• Daniel 12:1-2 .....at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. (The books are opened at the GWT judgement. So, the last day)

What do you think is going to happen at His Second Coming- which happens only once for the saved, not twice. What you are presenting is a secret rapture/coming of Christ just for the martyrs which Is not in our bibles. When He comes it will not be a secret, all eyes will see Him Rev 1:7, He comes in all His Glory. I don’t think people can comprehend the magnitude of this- it will be anything but secret. Jesus is not going to KILL His saved at His Second Coming just to raise them up again at the second resurrection . 1 Thes 4:16-17 Rev 20 refutes this.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory” (Matthew 25:31)

This is what happens to the earth and those not in Christ when He comes according to the Bible

“With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“At that day the slain of the Lord shall be from one end of the earth even to the other end of the earth” (Jeremiah 25:33).

“There was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. … Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found” (Revelation 16:18, 20).
“I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness, and all its cities were broken down at the presence of the Lord” (Jeremiah 4:26).
“The Lord makes the earth empty and makes it waste. … The land shall be entirely emptied” (Isaiah 24:1, 3).

All of those who were not in Christ will be slayed by His presence, unless we are fireproof, in Christ, the lost will be corpses from one end to the earth to the other. The earth will be destroyed and left empty and void. Satan bound on earth with no one to tempt. Why the saints or saved go up, not reign on earth as Jesus indicated John 14:2

Judgement is the last day, this is the last day as we know earth as it will be destroyed by God and left desolate at His Second Coming which is why we need to part of the first resurrection and not take the mark of the beast but be sealed by God.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

1 Thes 4: 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (the first resurrection). So its not just the dead martyrs says this clear scripture 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.


Those in Christ will already be with Jesus as He promised before the second resurrection occurs for the lost. The Judgement has already happened when Jesus comes Rev 22:11, His saved will be with Him during the millennium because Jesus is a God of love and it will be hard for the saints to understand why some of our loved ones didn’t make it. This will give Jesus time to spend with the saints to go over the books so everyone understands His righteous and fair Judgement. Satan is bound at this time and those not saved are dead. The second resurrection is for the wicked, not the saved because only the first one is for only the holy and blessed and if we are not holy or blessed, we are unholy and cursed. Only the BLESSED enter through the gates Rev 22:14 compared to who is outside Rev 22:15

 

[CoreyD]

What do you mean by wicked?

I mean what you mean.
What do you mean by wicked?
...and...
Is a child that ignorantly follows another, and smokes weed, wicked?
Is the woman that learns to be a professional boxer, wicked?
Is the soldier that believes he should fight for his country, and takes many lives wicked?

How do you define unrighteous, and what does it mean to be wicked?

Even the Psalmist thought he was a worm. It is a great example of how the word was used back in that time. Even today some people still call someone who is considered to be an underhand type of person, a "worm". It would be your opinion that the word is not being used in this way when we see that it was.

Isaiah also thought men were grasshoppers. Isaiah 40:22
However, we know both writers were making comparisons.
In the case of David... comparing himself to those who despised him, as to how they saw him.
In the case of Isaiah, how insignificant we are in relation to the supreme one.

I do not believe the Bible contradicts itself. However, we must carefully examine all of Scripture to see what it truly teaches.
I believe that when we die, we go into the grave where we have no consciousness—our thoughts perish, and we know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4). However, on the last day, Jesus will raise us from the grave, restoring our consciousness (John 5:28-29).

I too believe in the restoring of life and consciousness to those in God's memory.

The idea that people suffer in hell immediately after death conflicts with the biblical teaching that the dead sleep until the resurrection. The final judgment and punishment of the wicked occur after they are raised, not while they remain in the grave. When Revelation speaks of eternal fire and torment, it refers to the final destruction of the wicked, not their immediate suffering upon death.

I agree that those not found in God's book of life are considered wicked, and destroyed in the Lake of fire.

Agreed. It is the second death. The question is, do we have consciousness in the second death? This is what we are discussing.

What is death?
If you believe Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, why would you think that at death, one is conscious?
Isn't that a contradiction?

Many people struggle with the idea of eternal punishment because they compare God’s justice to human justice. But God is not like us—He is infinitely holy, infinitely just, and infinitely worthy of everlasting honour. The severity of sin is not measured by our feelings about it, but by the greatness of the One sinned against.

When people say that eternal punishment makes God "worse than Hitler," they misunderstand both the nature of sin and the nature of God. Sin is not just a mistake—it is rebellion against the very Creator of life itself. If God is infinitely great, then to reject Him is an infinitely serious offence. The Bible makes clear that those who reject Him will face everlasting contempt (Daniel 12:2) and that their worm will not die (Mark 9:48), showing that their existence in punishment does not come to an end.

It seems you are saying what God is and what God should do.
Would that not be your misunderstanding of God... like the rest of people who make their judgment God's judgment, rather than what's in scripture?

From the beginning, the punishment God meted out for sin, was death, and this never changed.
God did not tell Adam, who sinned the greatest of all sins, due to the fact that he was the only perfect human to ever live... before the second Adam, that is... God did not tell him, you will live forever, while being tormented in fire.
God told Adam, "You will die, and return to the dust from whence you came." Genesis 2:17; Genesis 3:19

Then, God told us, through Bible writers, what the condition of those dead, is. Please see this post.
He even said that the soul dies. Ezekiel 18:4
So, if you are saying otherwise, then you are saying that this is all wrong, and there is a contradiction.

Either we die and remain unconscious at death, or we don't.
The Bible says we do. Do you agree, or disagree?

God is not cruel—He is perfectly just. He has provided salvation through Jesus Christ so that no one has to face this judgment. Those who reject His mercy choose the consequences of their own rebellion. If eternal punishment seems too harsh, it is not because God is unjust, but because we fail to grasp how glorious and holy He truly is.

If eternal torment was indeed God's justice, it would be written in the Bible.
Many who are Christians today, would not be Christian if that were the case, because they struggle with the idea that God is love, and yet would roast people for eternity, as punishment for sin, knowing that we are dust.
That's why there are less people who choose Christianity today, and would rather be of a different religion.

I don't blame them.
Many who learn the truth from God's word, however, see that God's justice does not contradict his nature as a God of love, since as Jeremiah says, burning one's children in fire is something that repulses God.
Jeremiah 7:31

And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart. ​

Only Satan would say that God does something other that what he would do, or says he would do.
Satan is a liar... the biggest. All who believe his lies put themselves in serious danger.
They fall into this trap, because they do not accept the simple truths found in God's word.
Because of this, God is not pleased with them,

and for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12

It's very serious Tonne.
We have been warned of this apostasy that would raise its ugly head after the death of the apostles. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12
The apostasy is from Satan, and it misleads many.
Don't let it take your life away.

It seems to me that the real issue here is not the severity of the punishment, but a failure to grasp the majesty of God. If someone believes that eternal punishment is unjust, it is because they do not truly see how glorious, holy, and infinitely worthy of honour God is. When we diminish God's greatness, we naturally diminish the seriousness of sin and the punishment for it. But the Bible does not lower God's standard to fit human reasoning—it exalts His holiness and perfect justice.

How does a lie from Satan honor God Tonne?
Look at this thing carefully, please.
Would it be wise to use symbology to dismiss God's clear truth?.
Is it not better to accept the clear truths, and then recognize the symbolism for what it is?

Read the scriptures Tonne. Don't contradict them and yourself. Think Tonne.
Ask yourself, what it is that is turning you away from the truths on the condition of the dead.
Ask yourself how you can accept unconsciousness at death, and at the same time accept consciousness at death.
That's a contradiction.

The second death, is not the first, but it is still death.
Break free Tonne. Don't let that fire - that zeal be burnt on something that isn't going to stand.

1. Revelation 5:10 says we reign on the earth.

epi: on, upon, over, at, by, before, across, against, among, beside, in, on the basis of

1. Zechariah 14 says Jesus' feet will touch the Mount of Olives and He will reign as king over all the earth.

There we go.
Over all the earth.

1. Daniel 7:27 shows the kingdom given to saints under heaven.

And the kingdom and the dominion and the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High; his kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.’

The kingdoms on the earth are given to the Saints.
They rule over the whole earth, so everything on earth belongs to them.
Daniel 7:14

And He was given dominion, glory, and kingship, that the people of every nation and language should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

Every nation and tribe and people are the domain of the kingdom, which rules from heaven, over the earth.

1. Revelation 20 describes resurrected saints reigning with Christ. We see in Revelation that the martyr's souls are already alive in heaven as they are already praising God. So, if they are already alive spiritually, then the resurrection has to be physical.

Do you mean they are physical beings?
Are you then saying that the scriptures are wrong, which says they are raised with immortal spirit bodies in the heaven?
1 Corinthians 15:42-49

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. [it] is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.​

​

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.​

I'm sadly . This is so sad.

1. Luke 19:17 speaks of ruling cities, implying an earthly reign.

They rule the earth Tonne. What do you expect they will be ruling?
The President of the United States of America rules the city of New York. Does that mean he is in New York?
Does Jesus have to be on earth to rule the earth?
That means God never ruled the earth and the people on it, because he never set foot on earth.
Tonne, what's happening... are you thinking things through.
It feels like I am not talking to you. Is that you?

While Jesus receives His kingdom in heaven (Daniel 7:13-14), the Bible consistently shows that He will reign on the earth. Revelation 5:10, Zechariah 14, and Daniel 7:27 all make it clear that the kingdom involves dominion under heaven and over the earth. If the millennium is only in heaven, why does Jesus return to the Mount of Olives? Why does He give believers authority over cities? And why does Revelation say the saints reign on earth? A purely heavenly reign contradicts these passages.

Yes, over the earth.
Did you mean to say Christ rules the earth from heaven?
Is that what you are saying? Have I misunderstood you?
If so, I apologize, and it would make me feel so much better.

I mentioned before that Christ rules both heaven and earth. His rule is universal.
Ephesians 1:10

for the administration of the fullness of the times, to bring together all things in Christ - the things in the heavens and the things upon the earth​

If that's what you are saying, that Christ rules both heaven and earth, from heaven, we agree on that.

 

[1Tonne]

Please read who either receives the seal of God or the mark of the beast- its not those who are ALREADY dead in Christ, this is a future event

Agreed. It is a future event. It is those who die during the tribulation. Only the martyrs.

Which fits the prophecy in Dan 7:25, everything lines up perfectly. All the prophecy and timeline and what Jesus taught is false worship, which is what the mark of the beast is all about.

I see you are pointing towards the Catholic Church as the beast. I used to think the same but there is another view that fits much better. Investigate Islam as the beast. Islamic End times eschatology is a mirror image of the bible. It is amazing to study. Here is a quick 6-minute video that should get you interested. It even explains 666

You will also notice that Islamic armies often wear a banner on either their head or their right arm. The term 'dexios' or 'dexter' does not mean hand but refers to the right side. This banner bears the inscription, 'In the name of Allah, Islam,' which, when read in Greek, resembles 666.

Islamic law already enforces a system where those who do not pledge allegiance must pay a tax (jizya) to trade. Eventually, this tax is abolished, and individuals are forced to pledge allegiance to engage in commerce. Reports indicate that ISIS implemented this system, requiring people to pledge allegiance to Islam or be barred from buying and selling.

Here are some startling similarities between biblical prophecies of the last days and the Islamic prophecies of the same last days. These prophies seem like a mirror image of each other.

· Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader who will emerge in the last-days.
· Islam: The Mahdi is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last-days.

· Bible: The False Prophet is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days who will support the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days to support the Mahdi.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the World.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will have a powerful army that will attempt to control every nation of the earth and dominate the World under sharia law.

· Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lamb’s clothing. (Lamb being representative of Jesus)
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus literally comes bearing the name of the one that the world knows as “The Lamb of God: Jesus Christ.” Yet the Muslim Jesus comes to murder all those who do not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a New World Order (One World Government).
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus establish a New World Order under Islamic Law and ruled by the caliphate (Islamic Government).

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus institute Islamic law all over the earth (Sharia Law).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to “change the times.”
· Islam: It is quite certain that if the Mahdi established Islam all over the earth, he would discontinue the use of Saturday and Sunday as the weekend or days of rest but rather Friday, the holy day of Islam. Also, he would most certainly eliminate the Gregorian calendar (A.D.), and replace it with the Islamic calendar (A. H.) as is used in every Islamic country.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will both be powerful religious leaders who will attempt to institute a universal world religion.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will institute Islam as the only religion in earth.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will execute anyone who does not submit to their world religion.
· Islam: Likewise, the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will execute anyone who does not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will specifically use beheading as the primary means of execution for non-conformists.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will use the Islamic practice of beheading for executions.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews as possible.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will kill as many Jews as possible until only a few are left hiding behind rocks and trees.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will attack to conquer and seize Jerusalem.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will attack to re-conquer and seize Jerusalem for Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish temple as his seat of authority.
· Islam: The Mahdi will establish the Islamic Caliphate (Government) from Jerusalem.

· Bible: The False Prophet is said to do many miracles to deceive as many as possible into supporting the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Mahdi himself is said to control the weather and the crops. His face is said to glow. We can also assume that since Jesus is viewed as having been empowered by Allah to work miracles when he was here on earth the first time, he will most likely be expected to continue to do so when he returns.

· Bible: The Antichrist is described as riding on a white horse in the Book of Revelation
· Islam: The Mahdi is described as riding on a white horse (ironically from the same verse).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years.
· Islam: The Mahdi is said to make a peace treaty through a Jew (specifically a Levite) for exactly seven years.

· Bible: Jesus the Jewish Messiah will return to defend the Jews in Israel from a military attack from a vast coalition of nations led by the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
· Islam: The Dajjal, the Islamic Antichrist will gain a great Jewish following and claim to be Jesus Christ and fight against the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus.

· Bible: The antichrist spirit specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
· Islam: Islam doctrinally and spiritually specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.

· Bible: The primary warning of Jesus and the Apostle Paul was to warn Christians of the abundance of deceit and deception in the last-days.
· Islam: Islam is perhaps the only religion in the earth that practices deceit as one of its tools to assist its own ascendancy. It actually has a specific doctrine which allows and even calls for deception to be used to achieve its desired end.

· Bible: The specific nations pictured in the Bible as being part of the final empire of the Antichrist are all Islamic nations.
· Islam: All Muslims are commanded to give their allegiance to The Mahdi as the final Caliph and Imam (leader) of Islam.

· Bible: When Antichrist emerges, there will already be some form of system in place that will be poised to receive him as a Savior and to give allegiance to him.
· Islam: Already the second largest religion and will at present growth rates become the largest religion within a few decades. Islam is awaiting the coming of the Mahdi with a universal anticipation.

· Bible: Euphrates River will dry up which will allow the kings of the east (Muslim Countries) cross over where the river was and they will fight in Magedon
· Islam: Euphrates River will dry up. This will uncover something of great value. In the Hadiths it says Gold. There will be big battles over this treasure.

NOTE: Sorry guys. I am a mile behind in this thread as it has got too long for me and taking too much of my day. So, regarding the 1000-year conversation, I am bailing out. (I may make a thread some time with a timeline graph and verses etc)
I will still skim this thread if you ask any questions regarding the Islam thing. Blessings. It has been fun.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Agreed. It is a future event. It is those who die during the tribulation. Only the martyrs.

I see you are pointing towards the Catholic Church as the beast. I used to think the same but there is another view that fits much better. Investigate Islam as the beast. Islamic End times eschatology is a mirror image of the bible. It is amazing to study. Here is a quick 6-minute video that should get you interested. It even explains 666

You will also notice that Islamic armies often wear a banner on either their head or their right arm. The term 'dexios' or 'dexter' does not mean hand but refers to the right side. This banner bears the inscription, 'In the name of Allah, Islam,' which, when read in Greek, resembles 666.

Islamic law already enforces a system where those who do not pledge allegiance must pay a tax (jizya) to trade. Eventually, this tax is abolished, and individuals are forced to pledge allegiance to engage in commerce. Reports indicate that ISIS implemented this system, requiring people to pledge allegiance to Islam or be barred from buying and selling.
View attachment 362417

Here are some startling similarities between biblical prophecies of the last days and the Islamic prophecies of the same last days. These prophies seem like a mirror image of each other.

· Bible: The Antichrist is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader who will emerge in the last-days.
· Islam: The Mahdi is an unparalleled political, military and religious leader that will emerge in the last-days.

· Bible: The False Prophet is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days who will support the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus is a secondary prominent figure that will emerge in the last-days to support the Mahdi.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet together will have a powerful army that will do great damage to the earth in an effort to subdue every nation and dominate the World.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will have a powerful army that will attempt to control every nation of the earth and dominate the World under sharia law.

· Bible: The False Prophet is described essentially as a dragon in lamb’s clothing. (Lamb being representative of Jesus)
· Islam: The Muslim Jesus literally comes bearing the name of the one that the world knows as “The Lamb of God: Jesus Christ.” Yet the Muslim Jesus comes to murder all those who do not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet establish a New World Order (One World Government).
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus establish a New World Order under Islamic Law and ruled by the caliphate (Islamic Government).

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet institute new laws for the whole earth.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus institute Islamic law all over the earth (Sharia Law).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to “change the times.”
· Islam: It is quite certain that if the Mahdi established Islam all over the earth, he would discontinue the use of Saturday and Sunday as the weekend or days of rest but rather Friday, the holy day of Islam. Also, he would most certainly eliminate the Gregorian calendar (A.D.), and replace it with the Islamic calendar (A. H.) as is used in every Islamic country.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will both be powerful religious leaders who will attempt to institute a universal world religion.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will institute Islam as the only religion in earth.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will execute anyone who does not submit to their world religion.
· Islam: Likewise, the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will execute anyone who does not submit to Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will specifically use beheading as the primary means of execution for non-conformists.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will use the Islamic practice of beheading for executions.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will have a specific agenda to kill as many Jews as possible.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will kill as many Jews as possible until only a few are left hiding behind rocks and trees.

· Bible: The Antichrist and the False Prophet will attack to conquer and seize Jerusalem.
· Islam: The Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus will attack to re-conquer and seize Jerusalem for Islam.

· Bible: The Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish temple as his seat of authority.
· Islam: The Mahdi will establish the Islamic Caliphate (Government) from Jerusalem.

· Bible: The False Prophet is said to do many miracles to deceive as many as possible into supporting the Antichrist.
· Islam: The Mahdi himself is said to control the weather and the crops. His face is said to glow. We can also assume that since Jesus is viewed as having been empowered by Allah to work miracles when he was here on earth the first time, he will most likely be expected to continue to do so when he returns.

· Bible: The Antichrist is described as riding on a white horse in the Book of Revelation
· Islam: The Mahdi is described as riding on a white horse (ironically from the same verse).

· Bible: The Antichrist is said to make a peace treaty with Israel for seven years.
· Islam: The Mahdi is said to make a peace treaty through a Jew (specifically a Levite) for exactly seven years.

· Bible: Jesus the Jewish Messiah will return to defend the Jews in Israel from a military attack from a vast coalition of nations led by the Antichrist and the False Prophet.
· Islam: The Dajjal, the Islamic Antichrist will gain a great Jewish following and claim to be Jesus Christ and fight against the Mahdi and the Muslim Jesus.

· Bible: The antichrist spirit specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.
· Islam: Islam doctrinally and spiritually specifically denies the most unique and central doctrines of Christianity, namely the trinity, the incarnation and the substitutionary death of Jesus on the cross.

· Bible: The primary warning of Jesus and the Apostle Paul was to warn Christians of the abundance of deceit and deception in the last-days.
· Islam: Islam is perhaps the only religion in the earth that practices deceit as one of its tools to assist its own ascendancy. It actually has a specific doctrine which allows and even calls for deception to be used to achieve its desired end.

· Bible: The specific nations pictured in the Bible as being part of the final empire of the Antichrist are all Islamic nations.
· Islam: All Muslims are commanded to give their allegiance to The Mahdi as the final Caliph and Imam (leader) of Islam.

· Bible: When Antichrist emerges, there will already be some form of system in place that will be poised to receive him as a Savior and to give allegiance to him.
· Islam: Already the second largest religion and will at present growth rates become the largest religion within a few decades. Islam is awaiting the coming of the Mahdi with a universal anticipation.

· Bible: Euphrates River will dry up which will allow the kings of the east (Muslim Countries) cross over where the river was and they will fight in Magedon
· Islam: Euphrates River will dry up. This will uncover something of great value. In the Hadiths it says Gold. There will be big battles over this treasure.

NOTE: Sorry guys. I am a mile behind in this thread as it has got too long for me and taking too much of my day. So, regarding the 1000-year conversation, I am bailing out. (I may make a thread some time with a timeline graph and verses etc)
I will still skim this thread if you ask any questions regarding the Islam thing. Blessings. It has been fun.

The whole world has and will never wander after Islam. It doesn’t fit with the timeline or all of the descriptions as shown in Daniel 7, 8, 13,17 etc, but I see you are set in your beliefs so no point in going further.

If anyone is interested in a Bible study that goes verse by verse and lets the Bible interpret Itself, I highly recommend this study on Revelation and Daniel.