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Did the Fathers Teach ‘Bible Alone’?

jas3

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I don't under 'Perspicuity of Scripture'. This means The perspicuity of scripture is 'the idea that the Bible is clear and understandable, and that it can be interpreted literally'

Who is or is not interpreting the bible literally, the Protestants or Catholics. What is the problem with the bible being clear and interpreted literally in some places. Or needs further interpretation in others.
I have no idea what this is trying to say. Did the editor garble your post? Are the statements in the second paragraph supposed to have question marks?
 
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stevevw

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I have no idea what this is trying to say. Did the editor garble your post? Are the statements in the second paragraph supposed to have question marks?
Ok
Who is or is not interpreting the bible literally, the Protestants or Catholics?
What is the problem with the bible being clear and interpreted literally in some places. Or needs further interpretation in others ?
 
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Fervent

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Who is or is not interpreting the bible literally, the Protestants or Catholics?
What is the problem with the bible being clear and interpreted literally in some places. Or needs further interpretation in others ?
Perspicuity is just a fancy word for supernatural clarity, basically. It's the notion that all it takes to understand the Bible is basic reading skills, no scholarship or Magisterial opinion needed. In a sense, it's the idea that there is no need for usto interpret the Bible at all only read it and we will understand.
 
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stevevw

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Perspicuity is just a fancy word for supernatural clarity, basically. It's the notion that all it takes to understand the Bible is basic reading skills, no scholarship or Magisterial opinion needed. In a sense, it's the idea that there is no need for usto interpret the Bible at all only read it and we will understand.
Ok I understand now thankyou. So this is a Protestant belief that the bible can be understood by anyone with a plain reading. I actually rechecked the OP and it mentions this.

It seems to me there may be some truth and some of the bible verses but Perspicuity is not a given.

What this does do though is open the door for all sorts of interpretations. It logically follows that because we have such a division of interpretation today compared to before means we have undermined the authority of the bible. It doesn't matter which verses are up for contention. Its the fact that wee have a growing contention and different sections of the church fighting each other over interpretations.

That is why I believe CHrist knew this would happen and setup the church accordingly with Peter as the rock and the diciples including Paul ensuring that proper doctrine and teaching was passed on.

You hear Paul and Peter correcting the church on doctrine and reminding them of Christs truth. You hear them telling the church to watch out for gossipers, trouble makers who were subverting the teachings of the church.

So ;logically the church needs arthority to keep it on the right track and it shouldn't be a free for all over interpretation. The more its made out that interpretation is for anyone the more the church becomes divided.
 
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The Liturgist

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I don't under 'Perspicuity of Scripture'. This means The perspicuity of scripture is 'the idea that the Bible is clear and understandable, and that it canbe interpreted literally'

Who is or is not interpreting the bible literally, the Protestants or Catholics. What is the problem with the bible being clear and interpreted literally in some places. Or needs further interpretation in others.

If I understand you correctly, you are pointing out correctly that the idea of perspicuity of scripture implies a false dichotomy between esoteric and exoteric interpretation, and also that some texts are difficult to interpret, and if that is your point, I would agree, but at the same time, there remains an implicit erroneous Protestant vs. Catholic false dichotomy, which is one of the great historical errors that confuses Western scholars of Christian divinity, particularly those from a non-liturgical or Restorationist background.

This is an error not only firstly it completely neglects the unique perspectives of the three great Eastern churches*, which is incredibly problematic since these churches include nearly all native Christian speakers of the Greek and Aramaic languages, the former being what the New Testament was written in, and a dialect of the latter being the language actually spoken by Jesus Christ and the Jews, indeed, for several centuries prior to His Incarnation (the Book of Daniel, for example, is primarily Aramaic, and there are Aramaic words scattered throughout the Hebrew books of the Old Testament, even in Genesis). Two of these three communities, the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, are among the largest in the world, being the second largest and approximately sixth or seventh largest respectively as a unified communion (Roman Catholicism being the largest, Anglicanism the third largest, Lutheranism the fourth largest, various Calvinist and Reformed churches which are in communion, the fifth largest, and certain Pentecostal and Baptist groups in the same size range as the Oriental Orthodox, with 290 million Eastern Orthodox and about 70 million Oriental Orthodox (perhaps more, since OO demographics are believed to be under-reported in some Islamic countries such as Egypt and Syria).

The Church of the East, the third Eastern community, used to be the largest in the world, at least in terms of geography, and perhaps in population as well, until a mass-murdering Muslim warlord called Timur the Lame, more commonly known as Tamerlane, initiated a generations-long genocide in which all of its members outside of the Fertile Crescent in the Middle East and the Malabar Coast of India, a region stretching from Socotra in Yemen in the southwest to Azerbaijan in the northwest, and from there to Mongolia in the Northeast, then down across China to Tibet in the Southeast. Thus these churches account for a significant minority of Christians alive today, and when we consider the Islamist genocides, the Roman genocides against Coptic Christians under Diocletian, and the Turkish genocide against Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks, and more recent genocides and “ethnic cleansing” (forced displacement of populations) across Asia in the past 120 years, and the Communist persecutions which began under Lenin and intensified to an extreme under Stalin, and which led to the death of yet more Armenians and many Ethiopians including the martyred Emperor Haile Selassie under the Derg regime, not to mention countless Russians, Romanians, Ukrainians, Belarussians, Georgians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Montenegrins, Finns, Estonians, Latvians, Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans before and after World War II, account for a very high percentage of Christian martyrs, at least a plurality.

These churches were not unknown to the Protestants or the Catholics; Martin Luther was inspired to move against Rome by the mere existence of the Ethiopian church, which had never been under Roman control (nor had most Eastern churches; this would change politically but not religiously when Mussolini conquered Ethiopia and briefly occupied in one of the first acts of aggression leading to the Second World War), John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, was heavily influenced by Eastern Orthodox theology and was probably secretly consecrated a bishop by a Greek Orthodox bishop visiting England in 1763, Erasmus of Arcadia. Starting in the 17th century, non-Juring Scottish Episcopalians explored entering into communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, and this came close to happening between the Episcopalians and Russian Orthodox in North America, but was derailed by three factors: the rise of Communism causing the fragmentation of the Eastern Orthodox community in North America, the objections of “low church” Anglicans, and the rise of the “liberal Catholic” movement which integrated with the “broad church” movement to dominate Episcopalianism until the present.

Now, while I don’t agree with all of what Rev. Billy Graham taught, he did the Russian Orthodox church a great service during the Communist persecution, by obtaining a blessing from the Patriarch to preach in Russia, and thus do what the Soviet authorities would not allow the church to do, which was to engage in basic catechtical instruction, especially to youth - during the Soviet union, this happened in the privacy of homes, and those who maintained Orthodox faith faced persecution up to and including death, and were excluded from the Communist Party, membership of which was required in order to hold any number of important jobs. This was also the case with all other Christian churches operating in the USSR, and in the other Warsaw Pact countries to varying extents (some sought to maintain a pretense of religious freedom, whereas others, particularly Albania and North Korea, violently suppressed all religious activity aside from the cult of personality around their leader).

Finally, the Protestant vs. Catholic dichotomy is also a distortion even within Western Christianity, since there exist churches which do not fit into the dichotomy either according to the principles of their faith, such as the Moravians or Old Catholics or Anglicans of a High Church or Anglo-Catholic persuasion, or Orthodox Lutherans of an Evangelical Catholic persuasion, or which break the mold despite believing in the dichotomy, for example, Adventists and other Restorationists which have doctrines that are highly divergent from the most common shared beliefs of Protestants. It also ignores internal divisions within the Roman Catholic communion, such as the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, and even the other Western rites, such as the Ambrosian Rite Catholics of Milan, as well as the distinct practices and theological orientation of the various religious orders, which have on occasion come into conflict, for example, the Chinese Rites Controversy between the Jesuits, who believed that ancestor worship could be tolerated, and the Franciscans and Domincans, who took the view that it was intolerable (which I also share; this view however led to the Khangxi Emperor ordering all Christians in China to be killed.**

Thus, whenever we reduce a subject to a dichotomy, we are usually in error, and this is especially so when we try to reduce Christian theology to Protestantism vs. Catholicism, which is a point of view so narrow that I would argue it excludes most of it, since the few polemical bits that are popular in Protestant vs. Catholic debates are often misunderstood theological cliches that most serious theologians of either church, both conservative and liberal, traditional and modern, do not regard with much weight. And we ignore the mass martyrdoms that continue of Asian and African Christians of Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Identity, as well as those of Protestant and Catholic identity, and also the phenomenon of large scale conversions to the Orthodox church in the West, which also has included some converts to the Assyrian churches.


*These are, for those wondering, the Eastern Orthodox Communion (Greeks, Cypriots, Romanians, Antiochians, other non-Catholic Arabs of Rum (meaning Roman, from the Greek Romiioi) ethnicity such as the Jordanian Orthodox and the Orthodox Bedouins, Serbians, Montenegrins, Albanians, Bulgarians, Ukrainians, Russians, Finns, Poles, Native Alaskans, and various other Slavic Orthodox populations including many Carpatho-Rusyn or Ruthenian, Lemko and Czech and Slovak people, in addition to more recent conversions in the West), the Oriental Orthodox Communion, which consists of the Armenians, Copts, Ethiopians, Eritreans, Suroye (Syriac Orthodox Christians in the Levant, Turkey, Iraq, Lebanon and the Holy Land), Nasrani (Syriac Orthodox in India), and finally the Church of the East (currently divided by a schism on non-ethnic lines between the Ancient Church of the East and the much larger Assyrian Church of the East, the latter of which has more than 700,000 native speakers of Aramaic, the largest Aramaic speaking population in the world, but of course, the Ancient Church of the East also consists primarily of Aramaic speakers, and Syriac Aramaic is not only the liturgical language of the Syriac Orthodox Church, but spoken by a minority of its Suroye members, in two main surviving dialects, Turoyo, spoken by many from Turkey, and another version spoken in Jerusalem and Bethlehem, and finally there is an Aramaic speaking population in the Antiochian Orthodox Church, which is Eastern Orthodox, most notably in the village of Maaloula, Syria, which was held hostage by Al Qaeda about a decade ago and which like all Syrian Christians is once again endangered due to the rise of the new Islamist regime.

** Most of my Episcopalian friends are perplexed and bemused by the fact that the very odd church of St. Gregory of Nyssa in San Francisco, which appears to have Universalist tendencies but was apparently unaware of the fact that St. Gregory is one of only a few Early Church Fathers who expressly condemned in his writings all forms of homosexual conduct, there exists a Byzantine (Eastern Orthodox) style icon of the Kangxi Emperor along with various other Christian and non-Christian figures, such as Ghandi, on the ceiling of that parish. But that parish, for all of its eclectic worship (incorporating Shaker dances, Shinto shrines, Byzantine chant, and an Anaphora, or Eucharistic Prayer, dedicated to Cain, the proto-murderer, is still less of an anomaly than herchurch, an ELCA parish in San Francisco which is in no respects identifiably Lutheran, nor do I think it would count as Christian on CF.com, since it engages in “Mother Goddess worship” and distributes prayer beads called “Mother Goddess Rosaries” that feature a Pagan idol, and engages in Pagan rites such as Croning (a coming of age ceremony for women who are no longer of child-bearing age).
 
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The Liturgist

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Perspicuity is just a fancy word for supernatural clarity, basically. It's the notion that all it takes to understand the Bible is basic reading skills, no scholarship or Magisterial opinion needed. In a sense, it's the idea that there is no need for usto interpret the Bible at all only read it and we will understand.

And we can dismiss this idea because of the inability of even the most talented systematic theologians of a Reformed background such as Karl Barth and Friedrich Schleiermacher to, having exhaustively studied Scripture and all other aspects of theology, to come to a completely homogenous interpretation. Indeed ordinary Christians on this forum routinely have disagreements over the interpretation of some passages, some of which are not even usually regarded as being subject to controversy or misunderstanding - I have seen people on this site for example deny that John 1:1-18 is about Jesus Christ, or that John 6 pertains to the Eucharist, or that Matthew 28:19 indicates that we should baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The blissful thing about the Traditional Theology forum is that here, since everyone is from the various historical liturgical churches whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or otherwise, we have a largely common understanding of these texts, and to some extent this can promote toleration of differences of opinion provided we remain firmly within the ancient creeds and confessions. Here, for example, I unexpectedly found unity with my Lutheran brethren that I did not know existed, although the music of Bach and other Lutheran composers, and composers from liturgical Calvinist and Reformed churches, had always moved me in the same way that Orthodox Christian and traditional Roman Catholic and Anglican music moves me, in the direction of a calm piety which is away from worldly fears and sinful passions and towards love and trust in Christ our True God.
 
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And we can dismiss this idea because of the inability of even the most talented systematic theologians of a Reformed background such as Karl Barth and Friedrich Schleiermacher to, having exhaustively studied Scripture and all other aspects of theology, to come to a completely homogenous interpretation. Indeed ordinary Christians on this forum routinely have disagreements over the interpretation of some passages, some of which are not even usually regarded as being subject to controversy or misunderstanding - I have seen people on this site for example deny that John 1:1-18 is about Jesus Christ, or that John 6 pertains to the Eucharist, or that Matthew 28:19 indicates that we should baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Yeah, it's one of those doctrine that are indefensible with even a cursory examination of facts.
The blissful thing about the Traditional Theology forum is that here, since everyone is from the various historical liturgical churches whether Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox or otherwise, we have a largely common understanding of these texts, and to some extent this can promote toleration of differences of opinion provided we remain firmly within the ancient creeds and confessions. Here, for example, I unexpectedly found unity with my Lutheran brethren that I did not know existed, although the music of Bach and other Lutheran composers, and composers from liturgical Calvinist and Reformed churches, had always moved me in the same way that Orthodox Christian and traditional Roman Catholic and Anglican music moves me, in the direction of a calm piety which is away from worldly fears and sinful passions and towards love and trust in Christ our True God.
I appreciate that, and I think there's also kinship in the neo-Orthodox movement with traditional, historical, liturgical churches. What separates someone like me who sees myself as neo-Orthodox and prevents me from going full Orthodox is just because low-liturgical churches are what's comfortable for me, where Jesus found me and grabbed hold of me. So to me the simple stone slab in a cave is just as beautiful as the most lavishly decorated church building, and modern instruments and contemporary music is what I associate with worship. I can appreciate that some find the high liturgies move their attention to Jesus, but for me Jesus is found in simplicity. Though doctrinally, I'm far closer with Orthodoxy than with Baptists.
 
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The Liturgist

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Yeah, it's one of those doctrine that are indefensible with even a cursory examination of facts.

I appreciate that, and I think there's also kinship in the neo-Orthodox movement with traditional, historical, liturgical churches. What separates someone like me who sees myself as neo-Orthodox and prevents me from going full Orthodox is just because low-liturgical churches are what's comfortable for me, where Jesus found me and grabbed hold of me. So to me the simple stone slab in a cave is just as beautiful as the most lavishly decorated church building, and modern instruments and contemporary music is what I associate with worship. I can appreciate that some find the high liturgies move their attention to Jesus, but for me Jesus is found in simplicity. Though doctrinally, I'm far closer with Orthodoxy than with Baptists.

By the way, I do beg your forgiveness - I find Karl Barth’s work very interesting, and so if my initial post appeared excessively critical of him or of neo-Orthodoxy, that was not the point, rather, I was trying to show that there are some verses where his exhaustive study produced a different interpretation from other exhaustive studies by people of similar persuasion using similar systematic methodologies.

Additionally, I greatly enjoy low church liturgical worship, given that I was baptized Methodist and have a background in Congregationalism. So I entirely understand the low church perspective. One of my favorite churches in the US is the last conservative Congregational church in Boston, Park Street Church (of all the old Congregationalist churches that were once dominant in the city, it is the only one not to have either become fully heretical or “post-Christian” as part of the Unitarian Universalists, and the only one not to have completely embraced the far left social gospel of the United Church of Christ. While I listen to services from some churches I disagree with on various issues, I can’t handle listening to Old South Church for example, since even though they still have the traditional hymns and are using the same liturgy I used in the UCC (albeit without the conservative corrections to it; the UCC Book of Worship is distinctly liberal even compared to other service books published around the same time, such as the very unpleasant 1989 United Methodist Book of Worship), because of the anger with which the young man who preaches there much of the time agitates on purely political issues.

Now Congregationalism does have a history of agitation on political issues, namely slavery, but there is, I would argue, a distinction between that, and the Social Gospel that they presently preach, in that while slavery is not explicitly prohibited by Scripture, it is implicitly contradicted by the commandment to love our neighbor as ourself, whereas conversely aspects of the liberal postmodern theology of most UCC parishes and ministers aside from the small Faithful and Welcoming group are explicitly contradicted by sacred scripture, for example, regarding human sexuality, and while many Episcopal parishes such as St. Thomas Fifth Ave conduct themselves in such a way so that one who did not bother to read the biographies of their clergy would be unaware that two of them are homosexual, the tone used by most UCC preachers is concurrently angry and triumphalist, as if trying to be a left-wing response to leading moral theologians such as Dr. Albert Mohler or, in prior decades, Pope John Paul II and Dr. James Kennedy, may their memory be eternal, but whereas Dr. Mohler and Pope John Paul II and Dr. Kennedy benefitted from an alignment of their position with scriptural teaching on these controversial issues, and furthermore do not talk about them as much as is claimed (this is particularly the case with Dr. James Kennedy, who was wrongly portrayed by many as some kind of political figure masquerading as a clergyman for the benefit of his TV audience; having once visited his parish in the PCA and having heard him preach, and nearly having shaken his hand, in 2006, shortly before he reposed, I can attest that he was genuine, and the content of most of his preaching was rather foundational Christian doctrine. Conversely, the content of what one hears at Old South Church is seldom foundational Christian doctrine, and on those occasions where it is, it is interlaced or used to present aspects of the Social Gospel, or Womanist Theology, or Queer Theology, etc.

Thus, Park Street Church I particularly love, because they preserve the Congregationalist witness in a city otherwise lacking it - their pastor is solidly traditional, and they have a beautiful classical music program, and use a light standard liturgical format of worship. It is not high liturgy, but it is nonetheless beautiful, and their service on Easter Sunday in 2022, when the restrictions on their worship had been lifted, was particularly beautiful and jubilant.
 
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Fervent

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By the way, I do beg your forgiveness - I find Karl Barth’s work very interesting, and so if my initial post appeared excessively critical of him or of neo-Orthodoxy, that was not the point, rather, I was trying to show that there are some verses where his exhaustive study produced a different interpretation from other exhaustive studies by people of similar persuasion using similar systematic methodologies.
No need for forgiveness, I think your post was pretty accurate. When I say I'm neo-Orthodox, I don't mean to align myself with Karl Barth necessarily, though I do find a fair amount of agreement with him, but with the Orthodox church. The only thing that prevents me from fully embracing Orthodoxy is ecclesiology, especially in notions of clergy-laity distinctions.
Additionally, I greatly enjoy low church liturgical worship, given that I was baptized Methodist and have a background in Congregationalism. So I entirely understand the low church perspective. One of my favorite churches in the US is the last conservative Congregational church in Boston, Park Street Church (of all the old Congregationalist churches that were once dominant in the city, it is the only one not to have either become fully heretical or “post-Christian” as part of the Unitarian Universalists, and the only one not to have completely embraced the far left social gospel of the United Church of Christ. While I listen to services from some churches I disagree with on various issues, I can’t handle listening to Old South Church for example, since even though they still have the traditional hymns and are using the same liturgy I used in the UCC (albeit without the conservative corrections to it; the UCC Book of Worship is distinctly liberal even compared to other service books published around the same time, such as the very unpleasant 1989 United Methodist Book of Worship), because of the anger with which the young man who preaches there much of the time agitates on purely political issues.
I really appreciate your ecumenical approach.
Now Congregationalism does have a history of agitation on political issues, namely slavery, but there is, I would argue, a distinction between that, and the Social Gospel that they presently preach, in that while slavery is not explicitly prohibited by Scripture, it is implicitly contradicted by the commandment to love our neighbor as ourself, whereas conversely aspects of the liberal postmodern theology of most UCC parishes and ministers aside from the small Faithful and Welcoming group are explicitly contradicted by sacred scripture, for example, regarding human sexuality, and while many Episcopal parishes such as St. Thomas Fifth Ave conduct themselves in such a way so that one who did not bother to read the biographies of their clergy would be unaware that two of them are homosexual, the tone used by most UCC preachers is concurrently angry and triumphalist, as if trying to be a left-wing response to leading moral theologians such as Dr. Albert Mohler or, in prior decades, Pope John Paul II and Dr. James Kennedy, may their memory be eternal, but whereas Dr. Mohler and Pope John Paul II and Dr. Kennedy benefitted from an alignment of their position with scriptural teaching on these controversial issues, and furthermore do not talk about them as much as is claimed (this is particularly the case with Dr. James Kennedy, who was wrongly portrayed by many as some kind of political figure masquerading as a clergyman for the benefit of his TV audience; having once visited his parish in the PCA and having heard him preach, and nearly having shaken his hand, in 2006, shortly before he reposed, I can attest that he was genuine, and the content of most of his preaching was rather foundational Christian doctrine. Conversely, the content of what one hears at Old South Church is seldom foundational Christian doctrine, and on those occasions where it is, it is interlaced or used to present aspects of the Social Gospel, or Womanist Theology, or Queer Theology, etc.

Thus, Park Street Church I particularly love, because they preserve the Congregationalist witness in a city otherwise lacking it - their pastor is solidly traditional, and they have a beautiful classical music program, and use a light standard liturgical format of worship. It is not high liturgy, but it is nonetheless beautiful, and their service on Easter Sunday in 2022, when the restrictions on their worship had been lifted, was particularly beautiful and jubilant.
The breadth of your knowledge is very encouraging.
 
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The only thing that prevents me from fully embracing Orthodoxy is ecclesiology, especially in notions of clergy-laity distinctions

Just out of curiosity, are you aware that in the Orthodox Church the laity have the power to veto what would otherwise have been an ecumenical council? This happened at least twice, most notably with the Council of Florence, where only one bishop in attendance, St. Mark of Ephesus, refused to sign into the plan whereby the Orthodox Church of the Byzantine Empire would be subordinated to the Pope in Rome (and in return, the West was supposed to protect the Empire from being conquered by the Turks).

Imagine how bad it would be had the people consented to that - the Eastern Orthodox faith would have been lost except among the North Slavonic people and perhaps the Georgians, and some Oriental Orthodox (but the Armenians were being courted at Florence also, and rejected it in a similar manner if I recall), but I suspect that the powerful Turkish forces of the Osman Bashi (the Ottoman Empire; literally the “Ottoman Head”) would still have prevailed, Constantinople still would have fallen and Turkocratia still would have happened, but with the additional detriment of the people lacking the Orthodox faith to help them endure the tribulations imposed upon them by the cruelty of the Turks, which included a tax on first-born sons (who were taken from their parents, circumcised, converted to Islam and radicalized and trained in martial arts to become Janissaries - the Corps of Janissaries consisted almost entirely of baptized firstborn Christian sons stolen from their parents in childhood and forcibly converted to Islam, and this is what differentiated the Janissaries from the rest of the Ottoman military).

I only mention this because, with the exception of some of the Patriarchates, I don’t think the Orthodox Church is as clerical as people think. But it is the case that we do regard Holy Orders as a sacrament. However, this applies even to youths tonsured as Psaltis or at the high end, as Readers, who sing, read scripture lessons or serve in the altar or some combination thereof - they are in Holy Orders.
 
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Just out of curiosity, are you aware that in the Orthodox Church the laity have the power to veto what would otherwise have been an ecumenical council? This happened at least twice, most notably with the Council of Florence, where only one bishop in attendance, St. Mark of Ephesus, refused to sign into the plan whereby the Orthodox Church of the Byzantine Empire would be subordinated to the Pope in Rome (and in return, the West was supposed to protect the Empire from being conquered by the Turks).

Imagine how bad it would be had the people consented to that - the Eastern Orthodox faith would have been lost except among the North Slavonic people and perhaps the Georgians, and some Oriental Orthodox (but the Armenians were being courted at Florence also, and rejected it in a similar manner if I recall), but I suspect that the powerful Turkish forces of the Osman Bashi (the Ottoman Empire; literally the “Ottoman Head”) would still have prevailed, Constantinople still would have fallen and Turkocratia still would have happened, but with the additional detriment of the people lacking the Orthodox faith to help them endure the tribulations imposed upon them by the cruelty of the Turks, which included a tax on first-born sons (who were taken from their parents, circumcised, converted to Islam and radicalized and trained in martial arts to become Janissaries - the Corps of Janissaries consisted almost entirely of baptized firstborn Christian sons stolen from their parents in childhood and forcibly converted to Islam, and this is what differentiated the Janissaries from the rest of the Ottoman military).

I only mention this because, with the exception of some of the Patriarchates, I don’t think the Orthodox Church is as clerical as people think. But it is the case that we do regard Holy Orders as a sacrament. However, this applies even to youths tonsured as Psaltis or at the high end, as Readers, who sing, read scripture lessons or serve in the altar or some combination thereof - they are in Holy Orders.
I was unaware of that, truth be told I'm not all that well versed on the particulars of Orthodox clerical order. My primary hold out for Orthodoxy is that I myself was found by Christ with no contact with the Orthodox, and came to many doctrine that I understand are in line with Orthodoxy such as synchronistic soteriology and the Bible as an icon, so that I have a deep appreciation and awe for the Orthodox church but know the Church extends outside of the ecclesial boundaries of Orthodoxy. Which puts me in a position where I have a premium on the teachings of Orthodoxy, but do not feel moved to formally associate myself with the Orthodox church.

As per the threads topic, I think anyone with familiarity with the fathers would know that they didn't teach Bible alone, though familiarity with nuances of Sola Scriptura may lead one to conclude that it is in line with some of the positions the fathers took, particularly Irenaeus in his combat with the gnostics. I believe I've seen you mark the difference as nuda scriptura rather than sola scriptura. At any rate, the Christian faith cannot be divorced from historical traditions without succumbing to modern pressures and becoming a shell of what it truly is.
 
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The Liturgist

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My primary hold out for Orthodoxy is that I myself was found by Christ with no contact with the Orthodox, and came to many doctrine that I understand are in line with Orthodoxy such as synchronistic soteriology and the Bible as an icon, so that I have a deep appreciation and awe for the Orthodox church but know the Church extends outside of the ecclesial boundaries of Orthodoxy.

Me too, actually. By the way I had no idea you believed in all of that; I had incorrectly assumed you were in the realm of mainstream Calvinism, but I have always enjoyed your fellowship.

Which puts me in a position where I have a premium on the teachings of Orthodoxy, but do not feel moved to formally associate myself with the Orthodox church.

Do you think more Western Rite parishes that were more convenient, accessible and perhaps a bit more low church would help in your scenario?

By the way, whether you join an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church or not (I am a strong advocate for EO-OO reunion and regard both as Orthodox), you might be interested to know that a large number of Orthodox liturgical texts, actually a complete liturgical library in the case of the Byzantine and Coptic rite liturgy, and a large chunk of Syriac material, is now available online, for free in the case of the Byzantine material (and most of the Coptic material, however, the most convenient Coptic facility is an app called Coptic Reader where things like the Psalmody are add-ons, but it sets up the liturgy with the correct propers of the day for you, which is worth the price of admission.

If someone actually needs to do this in the Byzantine Rite it usually requires knowledge of a book called the Typikon (which is basically an ordo, it contains the instructions on how to reconcile the proper hymns from the annual cycle of holy days like Christmas, the Annunciation, the Transfiguration, etc, with the Paschal cycle of pre-Lent through the first Sunday after Pentecost (which in the Byzantine Rite is All Saints Day, since Pentecost contains a celebration of the Holy Trinity and is actually the parish feast of parishes dedicated to the Holy Trinity, whereas in the West the two separated into two adjacent Sundays; this pattern is not uncommon and we see combined holidays, which used to be the norm, but which were de-consolidated, for example, in the Armenian liturgy, where the Nativity and Baptism of our Lord are still celebrated on the same day (January 6th) whereas in the fourth century (as an anti-Arian statement, I think), every other church moved the Nativity as the Feast of the Incarnation to December 25th, nine months from the Annunciation on March 25th (which is also the earliest possible date of Pascha and the Julian calendar date of Pascha in the year 33 AD) and is … complex, and varies also, for example, between Greek and Slavonic churches. There are two other liturgical cycles, which are those of the Octoechos: each week is sung in a successive tone, one of eight tones, with it its own hymns for each day of the week, and in the absence of any other occasion the Octoechos is the default hymnal, but it is usually complemented to some extent, especially if one has a full monthly menaion with all of the holy days, and such is now available free of charge online, whereas previously one could only inexpensively access the propers for the major feasts.

However, for just perusing the Orthodox faith and exploring our theology, there is no need to worry about the Typikon, and it can be very enjoyable to just read the service books (most of which, perhaps all of which, even those containing the prayers for the Divine Liturgy, Baptism, Marriage and so on, can be regarded as hymnals, since all services are sung, although not everything in the book is sung, some prayers are traditionally said quietly by the priest, although lately some priests have been reading or intoning these portions aloud so the congregation can appreciate them, particularly with the less frequently used services like the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil used on a few occasions such as Christmas Eve, January 1st, and in Lent, or if the parish celebrates it, the ancient Hagiopolitan Divine Liturgy of St. James (which now is routinely used only on the feast day of St. James the Just on October 23rd).

Here is a collection of texts including the service books for the divine liturgy in contemporary English: Liturgical Texts

This site has the complete Octoechos and Menaion: All-Saints Eastern Orthodox Liturgical Resources
 
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As per the threads topic, I think anyone with familiarity with the fathers would know that they didn't teach Bible alone, though familiarity with nuances of Sola Scriptura may lead one to conclude that it is in line with some of the positions the fathers took, particularly Irenaeus in his combat with the gnostics. I believe I've seen you mark the difference as nuda scriptura rather than sola scriptura. At any rate, the Christian faith cannot be divorced from historical traditions without succumbing to modern pressures and becoming a shell of what it truly is.

We are of one accord in this respect. And yes, I am one of those who refers to the idea that the history and tradition of the Christian is worthless as nuda scriptura, to differentiate it from the sola scriptura position of my beloved Lutheran friends like @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian which clearly includes a respect for tradition (subordinate to scripture, but then, in Orthodoxy we regard the sacred Scriptures, particularly the Gospels, the Psalms and certain other texts, as being the center of tradition from which everything else radiates, which one might call prima scriptura, but the difference between the traditional viewpoint of sola scriptura and that of prima scriptura is subtle. There is a difference, but its not great.

On the other hand, when we have people who reject all traditions of the Christian faith by quoting Mark 7:13 out of context, ignoring 2 Thessalonians 2:15 or 1 Corinthians 11:2, or even quoting 2 Peter in an attempt to negate St. Paul’s endorsement of tradition (or other doctrinal positions associated with St. Paul, with great futility since most of what they are trying to negate is also found in the Acts of the Apostles), and that is particularly ironic, since 2 Peter was a book whose inclusion in the canon was controversial, and its inclusion, like that of Revelation, was settled in the fourth century by St. Athanasius when he issued his Paschal Encyclical, but the Syriac Peshitta in its original edition (often called the Eastern Peshitta, because the expanded version with the missing books translated by St. Thomas of Harqel was only used by the Syriac Orthodox and other West Syriac churches like the Maronites) is lacking 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, Jude and Revelation.

Conversely if we did not have the tradition of the 27 book canon, we would likely have some of the apocrypha which exists in the ancient Alexandrian-text type manuscripts, books like 1 Barnabas or the Epistle of St. Paul to the Laodiceans, or we would see Patristic texts like 1 Clement or the Shepherd of Hermas, which are valuable, but not Apostolic, included.

Some of the nuda scriptura denominations, for example, regard certain of their founders to be prophets whose writings constitute, furthermore, a divinely inspired exegesis of Scripture, and so when they argue against the use of tradition in, for example, the Roman Catholic Church (which they love to attack ad nauseam), they are doing so from the position of their own tradition, a magisterium which by virtue of being regarded as divinely inspired has more authority than that of any traditional church. But when one points out that this is inconsistent with Sola Scriptura unless they were to admit the books of that prophet to the canon, the response tends to be that no, that’s not the case because the interpretation of their prophet is the only reasonable understanding of the verse according to Sola Scriptura. And I do not doubt they believe this, but I feel such a belief is self-contradictory, and this should be pointed out so that those weak in the faith do not feel compelled to worship in the legalistic manner prescribed by restorationist denominations of the type I have described (and there are a few denominations that fall into this category, some of which are Nicene and present on CF.com and some of which are not).
 
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Me too, actually. By the way I had no idea you believed in all of that; I had incorrectly assumed you were in the realm of mainstream Calvinism, but I have always enjoyed your fellowship.
Calvinism actually kept me from being open about belonging to Christ for years. My views are evolving still, and everytime I seem to move closer to adopting Orthodoxy. Though I believe God has planted me in a baptist church for a reason, and I have fellowship with others in my local church that keeps me from venturing into other churches even if I do disagree with the pastoral staff on a number of doctrine that if they were not generous in their understanding could put me outside of the fold(like my recognition that church sacraments are not just symbols)
Do you think more Western Rite parishes that were more convenient, accessible and perhaps a bit more low church would help in your scenario?
I'm not sure, for me church attendance is all about the local body and 2-3 gathering in Christ's name. Haven't yet gone over to a monarchical governance ecclesial understanding, though God may bring me to that one day. For now, I'm comfortable thinking of myself as trans-denominational(as in transcendent and not in the modern political sense of the word). I pray that one day the church is re-united under a single head, but I'm not sure what I would expect that to look like. My general disposition is more mystical/spiritual than religious...so while I appreciate the beauty of longstanding traditional liturgies I personally am not moved much by them, but prefer more dynamic and ever evolving modes of worship. Kind of like Christ told the Samaritan woman, in their day God was worshiped on Gerizim by the Samaritans and Zion by the Jews, but one day we will worship in Truth and Spirit. I believe He inaugurated that day with His resurrection, though it has not yet been fully consummated.
By the way, whether you join an Eastern or Oriental Orthodox church or not (I am a strong advocate for EO-OO reunion and regard both as Orthodox), you might be interested to know that a large number of Orthodox liturgical texts, actually a complete liturgical library in the case of the Byzantine and Coptic rite liturgy, and a large chunk of Syriac material, is now available online, for free in the case of the Byzantine material (and most of the Coptic material, however, the most convenient Coptic facility is an app called Coptic Reader where things like the Psalmody are add-ons, but it sets up the liturgy with the correct propers of the day for you, which is worth the price of admission.

If someone actually needs to do this in the Byzantine Rite it usually requires knowledge of a book called the Typikon (which is basically an ordo, it contains the instructions on how to reconcile the proper hymns from the annual cycle of holy days like Christmas, the Annunciation, the Transfiguration, etc, with the Paschal cycle of pre-Lent through the first Sunday after Pentecost (which in the Byzantine Rite is All Saints Day, since Pentecost contains a celebration of the Holy Trinity and is actually the parish feast of parishes dedicated to the Holy Trinity, whereas in the West the two separated into two adjacent Sundays; this pattern is not uncommon and we see combined holidays, which used to be the norm, but which were de-consolidated, for example, in the Armenian liturgy, where the Nativity and Baptism of our Lord are still celebrated on the same day (January 6th) whereas in the fourth century (as an anti-Arian statement, I think), every other church moved the Nativity as the Feast of the Incarnation to December 25th, nine months from the Annunciation on March 25th (which is also the earliest possible date of Pascha and the Julian calendar date of Pascha in the year 33 AD) and is … complex, and varies also, for example, between Greek and Slavonic churches. There are two other liturgical cycles, which are those of the Octoechos: each week is sung in a successive tone, one of eight tones, with it its own hymns for each day of the week, and in the absence of any other occasion the Octoechos is the default hymnal, but it is usually complemented to some extent, especially if one has a full monthly menaion with all of the holy days, and such is now available free of charge online, whereas previously one could only inexpensively access the propers for the major feasts.

However, for just perusing the Orthodox faith and exploring our theology, there is no need to worry about the Typikon, and it can be very enjoyable to just read the service books (most of which, perhaps all of which, even those containing the prayers for the Divine Liturgy, Baptism, Marriage and so on, can be regarded as hymnals, since all services are sung, although not everything in the book is sung, some prayers are traditionally said quietly by the priest, although lately some priests have been reading or intoning these portions aloud so the congregation can appreciate them, particularly with the less frequently used services like the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil used on a few occasions such as Christmas Eve, January 1st, and in Lent, or if the parish celebrates it, the ancient Hagiopolitan Divine Liturgy of St. James (which now is routinely used only on the feast day of St. James the Just on October 23rd).

Here is a collection of texts including the service books for the divine liturgy in contemporary English: Liturgical Texts

This site has the complete Octoechos and Menaion: All-Saints Eastern Orthodox Liturgical Resources
Thank you for all of this information. I'll look deeper into it when I have more time.
 
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