The next phase in the Liturgy Wars?

Gnarwhal · Jun 18, 2024

I saw some tweets from different Catholic personalities yesterday all suggesting that they had credible sources telling them the Vatican was preparing to ban the TLM wholesale once-and-for-all.

I don't really have a dog in the fight, I've never attended one regularly and don't have one within 100 miles of me. I think what's happened since TC sucks and is wrong and pray that justice will rectify the situation with the next pope, but who knows what God's plan is?

What I don't find believable about these claims is that seems to suggest the Vatican would squash the FSSP too after going out of their way to make sure they were set aside to continue offering the TLM.

So I'm not sure I would believe this, but even if it did happen I don't know think it'd last very long either. I mean, I may not see a resolution but I don't think it would last more than 1-2 generations. I mean the TLM disappeared and re-emerged with the indult in the 80s all within one generation so I guess we never know.

RileyG · Jun 18, 2024

I pray and hope it’s preserved. No liturgy should be banned.

jas3 · Jun 18, 2024

The original source of this rumor is apparently Rorate Caeli, and according to them comes from the same sources that gave them advance notice of the survey that was sent out on Summorum Pontificum and of Traditionis Custodes:

URGENT - URGENT - Growing Rumors of a “Final Solution” for the Traditional Latin Mass - TLM

("Unconditional Tradition": parade against restrictions to the TLM, in Quimper, Brittany, France, on Sunday, June 16, 2024) Dear readers, On...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

This is deeply troubling news if true.

Cosmic Charlie · Jun 18, 2024

See this is the kind of question that get me into trouble because people think I'm being sarcastic or something.

But....

Can someone explain to me why I should care that we can't have a Mass is a dead language ?

-And-

Just as a counterpoint and to help me understand - What if someone wanted to have Mass in, say, Klingon (A completely made up language for a race of people that only exists in fiction), would that be ok ?

Bob Crowley · Jun 18, 2024

I'm actally doing a basic U3A course in Latin (and it's not easy) but I have no particular desilre to attend a TLM mass. I prefer to hear a good homily above all else. That's probably my ex-Protestant bias showing.

As for a Klingon mass, you'd have to ask the natives.

But it could turn out they're having a bunfight about the TLM as well.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 18, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
I'm actally doing a basic U3A course in Latin (and it's not easy) but I have no particular desilre to attend a TLM mass.

Classical or ecclesial? I also study Latin and yet have no interest in TLM. But I do like to pray the Psalms in Latin.

Bob Crowley · Jun 19, 2024

Classical although I bought a book on ecclesial Latin from a Protestant bookshop (to my surprise) although I haven't started to read it yet.

My understanding is that ecclesial Latin is Latin with an Italian accent. I think the main difference is pronunciation.

chevyontheriver · Jun 19, 2024

Gnarwhal said:
I saw some tweets from different Catholic personalities yesterday all suggesting that they had credible sources telling them the Vatican was preparing to ban the TLM wholesale once-and-for-all.

The rumor is out there. The rumor ahead of TC seemed too impossible at the time. Not gonna say this is too impossible.

Gnarwhal said:
I don't really have a dog in the fight, I've never attended one regularly and don't have one within 100 miles of me.

Go find one, even if it is a hike. You can tell your grandkids how you once went to one.

Gnarwhal said:
I think what's happened since TC sucks and is wrong and pray that justice will rectify the situation with the next pope, but who knows what God's plan is?

Reversing it is possible, but their goal is to make it practically irreversable.

Gnarwhal said:
What I don't find believable about these claims is that seems to suggest the Vatican would squash the FSSP too after going out of their way to make sure they were set aside to continue offering the TLM.

It would seem odd, but then undoing pope Benedict XVI's permissions for any priest to say the TLM seemed odd. It was hostile and unnecessary.

Gnarwhal said:
So I'm not sure I would believe this, but even if it did happen I don't know think it'd last very long either. I mean, I may not see a resolution but I don't think it would last more than 1-2 generations. I mean the TLM disappeared and re-emerged with the indult in the 80s all within one generation so I guess we never know.

It all depends on who the next pope is and whether they are of a mind to deliberately undo the mess this pope has made or just sort of live with it. What a way to run a railroad.

The restrictions on the TLM so far, as a result of TC, have backfired on pope Francis, making it more popular than ever. So I'm betting they think they have to go in for the kill shot.

Wolseley · Jun 19, 2024

Bob Crowley said:
Classical although I bought a book on ecclesial Latin from a Protestant bookshop (to my surprise) although I haven't started to read it yet.

My understanding is that ecclesial Latin is Latin with an Italian accent. I think the main difference is pronunciation.

The only Latin you really need to know, any more, is "Credo Elvum ipsum etiam vivere," which means "I believe Elvis is still alive."

Bob Crowley · Jun 19, 2024

"Itane! Totus sum excussus!" which means "Really! I'm all shook up!"

Gnarwhal · Jun 19, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Go find one, even if it is a hike. You can tell your grandkids how you once went to one.

I've been to some when I lived in DC. Went to Old Saint Mary's as well as St Richard Peñafort in Springfield, VA. All were Low Masses, but I did go. I also went to an Ordinariate Mass at St Lukes in Fort Washington, MD. Now that I'm back in CA the nearest TLM is St Stephen First Martyr, an FSSP parish in Sacramento.

chevyontheriver said:
It all depends on who the next pope is and whether they are of a mind to deliberately undo the mess this pope has made or just sort of live with it. What a way to run a railroad.

Yes many think the college is stacked to elect a Pope who will continue Francis' work, but some think the next election will be a bit reactionary. Like "that last one was too radical lets roll it back a bit" and elect a more based Pope. That's just one theory I've heard.

fide · Jun 19, 2024

Cosmic Charlie said:
See this is the kind of question that get me into trouble because people think I'm being sarcastic or something.

But....

Can someone explain to me why I should care that we can't have a Mass is a dead language ?

-And-

Just as a counterpoint and to help me understand - What if someone wanted to have Mass in, say, Klingon (A completely made up language for a race of people that only exists in fiction), would that be ok ?

As I understand it: The specific language involved is not the main issue - the liturgy was in some serious ways changed, degraded, re-oriented not just physically but ontologically - the Mass became less reverent, less self-sacrificial for priest and laity, less God-centered and less Trinitarian, less reparational, more of a "family meal" than an encounter with Christ in His Passion. Thus, less spiritual and less Truthful in an act (worship) that, as Jesus taught, the Father seeks to be offered "in Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4:24)
Jhn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

The TLM has one liturgy, not as the N.O. which has "options" to be chosen by the celebrant. Thus it is universal. In practice, the N.O. has obviously tempted the celebrant to make it too much about him. (Almost) all eyes are on him, and he knows it. If he has any part in him who loves being in the spotlight, he loves Mass for all the wrong reasons.

Those are just some of the reasons. IMHO, this change is part of a larger "dumbing-down" of the Holy Faith.

Cosmic Charlie · Jun 19, 2024

fide said:
As I understand it: The specific language involved is not the main issue - the liturgy was in some serious ways changed, degraded, re-oriented not just physically but ontologically - the Mass became less reverent, less self-sacrificial for priest and laity, less God-centered and less Trinitarian, less reparational, more of a "family meal" than an encounter with Christ in His Passion. Thus, less spiritual and less Truthful in an act (worship) that, as Jesus taught, the Father seeks to be offered "in Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4:24)
Jhn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

The TLM has one liturgy, not as the N.O. which has "options" to be chosen by the celebrant. Thus it is universal. In practice, the N.O. has obviously tempted the celebrant to make it too much about him. (Almost) all eyes are on him, and he knows it. If he has any part in him who loves being in the spotlight, he loves Mass for all the wrong reasons.

Those are just some of the reasons. IMHO, this change is part of a larger "dumbing-down" of the Holy Faith.

Now -

This might get me into trouble legitimately.

I am reminded, reading this, of an old saying a very wise man once told me (it was my father if you're interested) -

When people try to tell you "it's not the money, it's the principle", It's about the money.

You say it's not the language, I believe you, Fide, really I do.

But, it's the language that's at issue.

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 19, 2024

fide said:
As I understand it: The specific language involved is not the main issue - the liturgy was in some serious ways changed, degraded, re-oriented not just physically but ontologically - the Mass became less reverent, less self-sacrificial for priest and laity, less God-centered and less Trinitarian, less reparational, more of a "family meal" than an encounter with Christ in His Passion. Thus, less spiritual and less Truthful in an act (worship) that, as Jesus taught, the Father seeks to be offered "in Spirit and Truth" (Jn 4:24)
Jhn 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

The TLM has one liturgy, not as the N.O. which has "options" to be chosen by the celebrant. Thus it is universal. In practice, the N.O. has obviously tempted the celebrant to make it too much about him. (Almost) all eyes are on him, and he knows it. If he has any part in him who loves being in the spotlight, he loves Mass for all the wrong reasons.

Those are just some of the reasons. IMHO, this change is part of a larger "dumbing-down" of the Holy Faith.

Thanks for your opinion but I think it is reactionary. We have discussed this before and found it fruitless.
The only real focus on the priest is during the homily, as in any Mass.

At any rate, I think the rite should be kept as an option along with others.

fide · Jun 19, 2024

Cosmic Charlie said:
Now -

This might get me into trouble legitimately.

I am reminded, reading this, of an old saying a very wise man once told me (it was my father if you're interested) -

When people try to tell you "it's not the money, it's the principle", It's about the money.

You say it's not the language, I believe you, Fide, really I do.

But, it's the language that's at issue.

The language is part of it - not the main part, but part. Ask around TLM advocates, and ask them if they'd bb happy and satisfied if the Pope would insist on the N.O. alone, but "compromised" by allowing it to be offered in Latin. I doubt you could find anyone who would want to have that.

fide · Jun 19, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Thanks for your opinion but I think it is reactionary. We have discussed this before and found it fruitless.
The only real focus on the priest is during the homily, as in any Mass.

At any rate, I think the rite should be kept as an option along with others.

If "The only real focus on the priest is during the homily, as in any Mass," why not have him face East in expectation of God the Son returning, and not face the people - what has almost become "the audience"?

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 19, 2024

fide said:
If "The only real focus on the priest is during the homily, as in any Mass," why not have him face East in expectation of God the Son returning, and not face the people - what has almost become "the audience"?

Because God is not in the East. God is everywhere and especially in those gathered in his name.
I get the symbolism but it goes both ways. They are not the "audience". They are the Church.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.

Here with us now. Not just out the in the East somewhere.

Of course we are talking about something that is "always already" as well as "not yet".

chevyontheriver · Jun 19, 2024

fide said:
The language is part of it - not the main part, but part. Ask around TLM advocates, and ask them if they'd bb happy and satisfied if the Pope would insist on the N.O. alone, but "compromised" by allowing it to be offered in Latin. I doubt you could find anyone who would want to have that.

I knew a parish that never gave up the Latin language but did it in the novus ordo. Priest facing ad orientem, the Eucharist at the communion rail kneeling. It was a thriving parish, a bastion of orthodoxy, and people came for miles and miles.

That said, I would be happy with and English language traditional mass. The old mass cleanly translated. The old collects and all of that, but in English. We don't exactly have that right now except sort of with the Anglican Ordinariate liturgy.

chevyontheriver · Jun 19, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Because God is not in the East. God is everywhere and especially in those gathered in his name.
I get the symbolism but it goes both ways. They are not the "audience". They are the Church.

No, we're not an audience. But sometimes it feels like it. We are supposed to all be directing our prayers in the same metaphorical direction to the Father, with the priest who represents the Son. Turning the priest around does mess with that.

chevyontheriver · Jun 19, 2024

Akita Suggagaki said:
Thanks for your opinion but I think it is reactionary. We have discussed this before and found it fruitless.
The only real focus on the priest is during the homily, as in any Mass.

At any rate, I think the rite should be kept as an option along with others.

We'll see if the nuclear option is the only one left to us. Guessing we know in less than six months.

The next phase in the Liturgy Wars?

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