How to reconcile grace vs maintaining good works/faith

Holy Universe · Jun 3, 2024

These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

HTacianas · Jun 3, 2024

Holy Universe said:
These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

The gospel of grace has it that once a person repents of their sins and is baptized all of their previous sins are forgiven.

Rom 3:25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Note that God "passed over the sins that were previously committed" through His grace. It is that grace through faith alone that we enter into salvation. Salvation is not a reward for anything we may have done previously.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

But then after we enter into that salvation it is our works that determine whether we remain in it or not. That means both good and bad. To do good works as Christ commanded and to refrain from bad works as Christ commanded. As spoken by the Apostle Paul, he went to extremes to avoid bad works:

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

He knew that if he did not continue in good that he would be "disqualified". He warned in his letter to the Romans:

Rom 11:22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

There are other even sterner warnings in the new testament against falling away into disbelief or sin. The fate of those who do is clearly spelled out. And as to those who do not do the good they are required to do see Matthew 25:41-46.

And remember something. A heretic doesn't know he's a heretic. He actually believes what he is saying.

d taylor · Jun 3, 2024

Holy Universe said:
These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

-

It is a fairly simple concept to understand. God's grace, is that He (God), made a way back to The Life of God that man by way of Adam lost.
So anyone who wants to live in eternity with God will have to have The Life of God.

So God is offering His Life as a free gift to any person who will believe in Jesus. The only condition required by God to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life.

So when a person believes in Jesus that is it, they become a permanent born again child of God. At the very moment of belief in Jesus, they cross over from death to life. Never to cross back over to death from life.

“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Now after a person believes in Jesus and becomes a child of God. If they want to have friendship and fellowship with Jesus/God. They must maintain this relationship with God, just as a son or daughter must maintain their relationship with their mother and father. But unlike human parents, God is perfect and will always be loving Father.

Now if a believer lives their life more worldly than like Jesus, they may receive discipline from God. God may even take their life or let the sin they are caught up in. take their life. Or at least cause great problems for this person.

A believer does not maintain their Eternal Life so they will not lose it. They can not lose Eternal Life, but they can cause sever loss of rewards at the judgement seat of The Messiah. So that is why it is said for a born again child of God to finish well. Not to receive Eternal Life salvation, but to have a good reward judgment.

Mark Quayle · Jun 4, 2024

Holy Universe said:
These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

For what it is worth, OSAS is worthless in and of itself. Those to whom God chose to show mercy, and who are his "particular creation", elect, chosen, are going to be with him, but that is because of his choice and not theirs. That they do chose is to be insisted upon —yes, they do, they must!, but that is not what saved them. OSAS is merely an observation. Those whom God has chosen will be saved, and that, irrevocably. God will complete all that he has set out to do. If one thinks he can believe and then go live as a pagan, God is not mocked.

bling · Jun 4, 2024

The idea is God is protecting your salvation against all thieves and conman. Our salvation is in “The Bank of God”, yet it is fully owned by us and we can with draw it from God’s hand, since it is ours, but why might we of our own free will give it up?

Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Also someone being dead was brought up, but we really need to see how Christ talked about dead people:

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau owned the “gift” of the firstborn inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid-up tax-free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.

Again we are not doing or allowing the Holy Spirit to do good stuff through us to get anything (God has given us everything up front with the exception of dwelling in heaven right now), but we do have an undeserved birthright to heaven which cannot be lost like your keys, stolen from you, earned, paid back and even God will not take it from you, but you can of your own free will which you still have: given it away (satan wants it).

Again, God is not taking our gift of eternal life back, since it is a gift we now have, but we can loss interest in Godly type Love and pursue carnal type Love to the point and not care about living with God forever.

Look also at:

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

Diamond72 · Jun 4, 2024

Holy Universe said:
Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith

I wish because then God would be responsible, not me. The Bible teaches that everything in life is a choice and we need to make the right choices.

I call Heaven and Earth to witness against you today: I place before you Life and Death, Blessing and Curse. Choose life so that you and your children will live. Deuteronomy 30:19-20

SabbathBlessings · Jun 8, 2024

Holy Universe said:
These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them

IOW, we are saved by grace through faith alone but doing good works is a consequence of having faith and shows that Jesus has changed us from the inside out.

Our salvation is conditional on our faith and we can lose our salvation if we lose our faith. Scripture says if we fall away, we can come back in the fold but a saved person will confess and forsake their sins Pro 28:13 1 John 1:9 and through the power of Jesus He can change our heart and we can obey Him through faith and love 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

Holy Universe said:
These are things I'm struggling to understand in the scripture. OSAS. Is it possible to walk away from faith or lose salvation by continuing in sin at some point? Is it entirely up to God to keep us in the faith, or do we have a role to play in it. Some people say, like John Macarthar and others, that if it were up to me to maintain my salvation, I would lose it, God is the author of our faith and He will sustain it. No one will pluck me (us) out of His hand, etc. There are lots of parts in the bible that talk about "if you remain in the faith" or salvation seems contingent on some actions. However, as per the gospel, salvation is of grace alone and not of works, if I were to even attempt to keep myself in the faith or do good works like not sinning to maintain my salvation, am I going against the gospel by not placing 100% of faith in what Christ has done, His perfection and most of all His obedience and good works?

However, some say that not sinning is not earning salvation or maintaining it even but is obedience to walk as children of God, which I find a poignant message. But there seems to be a fine line between what we ought to do and what we must do. I don't want to sin at all or have any excuse to sin. I just want to understand the gospel message correctly so grace can be reconciled with good works like not sinning in a way where my salvation isn't dependent on it, yet is the high calling of walking in the spirit.

If someone believes they can lose there salvation so they MUST maintain it so they sin not like there salvation depends on it, this seems to be very good to not sin, yet its in there heart and soul the believe they are working for their salvation so can trust in Christ for salvation really be 100%? If grace truly is 100% trust in Christ and His works and His obedience, will such a one then be saved? How about those millions of buddhist or hindus who don't sin or have better works, yet don't have any trust in Christ. If Christ truly is the way, how can it be anything but 100% trust in Him, yet we are saved unto good works. Is not sinning the purpose of our salvation then. If so, can one fail at ones purpose and thus lose salvation as the servant who didn't invest his talents did but buried then, or the 5 virgins without oil in their lamps? But then we are back where we stared, earning or mainting salvation?

Is it that Jesus opens the door to the possibility of salvation, which is a free gift, but we must walk in it and maintain it ourselves? Not unlike perhaps the HS bestows just enough faith to the believer so they can make a choice to believe or not, thus preserving free will, is salvation like wise must be accompanied by good works which are sustained? Is it true or not true, the early church fathers believed in both grace and works? Like those who knew the apostles themselves.

Furthermore, is keeping the faith something I have to do? Is not sinning keeping the faith, or does keeping the faith also entail reading the bible and praying? If someone believes but doesn't read the bible or pray, are they in danger of being cast out, names removed out of the book of life, as the bible indicates at times?

I know for certain, a carnal mind is at enmity with God. I've experienced this myself. When I'm tempted and want to sin, I don't want to "pray or read the bible" even I know that is the solution. Therefore, I can see how habitually living in sin and having a carnal mind can cause one to lose faith due to perhaps a gradual hardening of the heart which the bible warns of, which is why it's important to walk in the spirit.

Is there anything else possible that can diminish faith? Off the top of my head, doubt is the opposite of faith. Just musing.

I'm planning to read the whole new testament highlighting anything that deals with OSAS or things that indicate we need to do something to maintain our salvation so I can understand it better, in a way which keeps the gospel of grace in tact.

Grace is the life of God in us. It has the purpose of reconciling and uniting us with Him and causing us to maintain and grow stronger in that relationship as we're increasingly transformed into His own image. This is a process, a journey, and one that we can back out of at any time. Or we can participate, remaining in Him, picking up our cross daily and following, doing His will as best we can.

bbbbbbb · Jun 11, 2024

fhansen said:
Grace is the life of God in us. It has the purpose of reconciling and uniting us with Him and causing us to maintain and grow stronger in that relationship as we're increasingly transformed into His own image. This is a process, a journey, and one that we can back out of at any time. Or we can participate, remaining in Him, picking up our cross daily and following, doing His will as best we can.

The sad thing about synergism is that man is responsible to save himself. God cannot or will not do it. Man must do it. You can infuse a hazy notion of God's grace into it, but in the end, if man does not keep (perfectly) his end of the deal he gets tossed into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever. That includes, in the case of the RCC, missing Sunday mass - just even once - unless proper confession and penance is performed. The really nasty reality is that the vast majority of European Catholics don't have a whisper of hope of being saved, if one goes by the attendance statistics of weekly masses in Europe.

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
The sad thing about synergism is that man is responsible to save himself. God cannot or will not do it. Man must do it. You can infuse a hazy notion of God's grace into it, but in the end, if man does not keep (perfectly) his end of the deal he gets tossed into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever. That includes, in the case of the RCC, missing Sunday mass - just even once - unless proper confession and penance is performed. The really nasty reality is that the vast majority of European Catholics don't have a whisper of hope of being saved, if one goes by the attendance statistics of weekly masses in Europe.

The sad thing about monergism, or any other alternative, is that man has no choice in the matter-and may well end up in the lake of fire by God's whim. With Catholic synergism it's recognized that man is a morally responsible being, and made in God's image, not a puppet or a beast, and so has a role to play. Grace is essential as man is lost and cannot possibly find God and save himself-and yet he can refuse to be saved; grace is resistible, IOW. Man can refuse to grab on to the life preserver that's been thrown by the only Savior in existence, or he can let go at any point later on once he does grab hold. Like a good parent God seeks to cultivate man's responsibility, for man to recognize and choose justice/righteousness, ultimately to choose love, the epitome of justice, for himself to the extent possible, and increasingly so.

And this aligns with early church teachings and the ECFS together with the fact that God gave man free will to begin with and proceeded to patiently work with man down through the centuries after the Fall to bring him to a point where he might be ready to accept the light when it came in "the fullness of time"-rather than just placing some in heaven and the rest in hell to begin with.

Only...by freely choosing God and love does man begin to achieve his purpose, to become the being he was created to be-and then obedience begins to flow of its own accord, naturally, incidentally.

bbbbbbb · Jun 11, 2024

fhansen said:
The sad thing about monergism, or any other alternative, is that man has no choice in the matter-and may well end up in the lake of fire by God's whim. With Catholic synergism it's recognized that man is a morally responsible being, and made in God's image, not a puppet or a beast, and so has a role to play. Grace is essential as man is lost and cannot possibly find God and save himself-and yet he can refuse to be saved; grace is resistible, IOW. Man can refuse to grab on to the life preserver that's been thrown by the only Savior in existence, or he can let go at any point later on once he does grab hold. Like a good parent God seeks to cultivate man's responsibility, for man to recognize and choose justice/righteousness, ultimately to choose love, the epitome of justice, for himself to the extent possible, and increasingly so.

And this aligns with early church teachings and the ECFS together with the fact that God gave man free will to begin with and proceeded to patiently work with man down through the centuries after the Fall to bring him to a point where he might be ready to accept the light when it came in "the fullness of time"-rather than just placing some in heaven and the rest in hell to begin with.

Only...by freely choosing God and love does man begin to achieve his purpose, to become the being he was created to be-and then obedience begins to flow of its own accord, naturally, incidentally.

Of course, there is no such entity as "free will" for Christians of any persuasion. RCC teaching makes it quite clear as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
Of course, there is no such entity as "free will" for Christians of any persuasion. RCC teaching makes it quite clear as per the Catechism of the Catholic Church -

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

No, as with Scripture, one must read teachings in their entirety. Man is characterized as lost, wounded, asleep, sick, compromised in his justice and weakened in his will, but not so much that he cannot be stirred and awakened by grace. Again, all teachings:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

bbbbbbb · Jun 11, 2024

fhansen said:
No, as with Scripture, one must read teachings in their entirety. Man is characterized as lost, wounded, asleep, sick, compromised in his justice and weakened his will, but not so much that he cannot be stirred and awakened by grace. Again, all teachings:

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."26

Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.27

I. FREEDOM AND RESPONSIBILITY

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

1733 The more one does what is good, the freer one becomes. There is no true freedom except in the service of what is good and just. The choice to disobey and do evil is an abuse of freedom and leads to "the slavery of sin."28

1734 Freedom makes man responsible for his acts to the extent that they are voluntary. Progress in virtue, knowledge of the good, and ascesis enhance the mastery of the will over its acts.

1735 Imputability and responsibility for an action can be diminished or even nullified by ignorance, inadvertence, duress, fear, habit, inordinate attachments, and other psychological or social factors.

However, through Adam man lost the utter freedom of will that Adam experienced in Eden. Thus, human will has been deeply affected by Adam's sin and is not "free". The Catholic Church is quite clear on this point.

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
However, through Adam man lost the utter freedom of will that Adam experienced in Eden. Thus, human will has been deeply affected by Adam's sin and is not "free". The Catholic Church is quite clear on this point.

The Catholic Church rejects Pelagianism-the idea that man can pull himself up by his own bootstraps to righteousness, without the help of grace, while acknowledging that man can still refuse and reject the grace given. It's a partnership, by God's design, Him leading and drawing, us following, or not.

"Apart from Me you can do nothing" (John 15:52), but "With God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26).

This is what we're here to learn.

bbbbbbb · Jun 11, 2024

fhansen said:
The Catholic Church rejects Pelagianism-the idea that man can pull himself up by his own bootstraps to righteousness, without the help of grace, while acknowledging that man can still refuse and reject the grace given. It's a partnership, by God's design, Him leading and drawing, us following, or not.

That is irrelevant to the topic at hand - the freedom of the human will. The Catholic Church, in recognizing a need for God's grace, directly implies a degree of inability on man's part. That inability is the direct consequences of Adam's sin, which brought a loss of the freedom of the human will.

If I may I would like to ask you a curious question. In the following passage, who do you think set the Romans free from slavery to sin:

Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

Fervent · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
That is irrelevant to the topic at hand - the freedom of the human will. The Catholic Church, in recognizing a need for God's grace, directly implies a degree of inability on man's part. That inability is the direct consequences of Adam's sin, which brought a loss of the freedom of the human will.

If I may I would like to ask you a curious question. In the following passage, who do you think set the Romans free from slavery to sin:

Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

There is only one group that teaches inability, the reformed. All others teach that man is able, upon God's initiation, to offer a meaningful response and cooperate with God in salvation. Luther and Calvin misunderstood what was written by Augustine and took it to an extreme the church never did, since they failed to understand the extent to which polemic dominated Augustine's writings and paid no attention to the rest of the church fathers.

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
That is irrelevant to the topic at hand - the freedom of the human will. The Catholic Church, in recognizing a need for God's grace, directly implies a degree of inability on man's part. That inability is the direct consequences of Adam's sin, which brought a loss of the freedom of the human will.

The difference is that in Catholicism man is not so totally depraved as to not be able to muster a "no" when called, even though he must be moved, prompted, appealed to and drawn. Fallen man still has a degree of freedom, and God will not totally overwhelm that freedom just as he wouldn't do so in Eden or any other time in man's history. God, having made man in His own image, has something to "work with", IOW, and has always had the purpose of ultimately producing something grand out of it, which includes bringing an even greater good out of the evil that resulted from the abuse of man's freedom. A good-and relatively short- read are the canons from a local council which convened some 1500 years ago, the 2nd Council of Orange, which were accepted as official teachings of the Church. They are full of nothing less than a testimony to the absolute necessity of grace:

The Canons of the Second Council of Orange (529)

Then note the concepts taught in "Conclusion" at the end:

CONCLUSION. And thus according to the passages of holy scripture quoted above or the interpretations of the ancient Fathers we must, under the blessing of God, preach and believe as follows. The sin of the first man has so impaired and weakened free will that no one thereafter can either love God as he ought or believe in God or do good for God's sake, unless the grace of divine mercy has preceded him. We therefore believe that the glorious faith which was given to Abel the righteous, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and to all the saints of old, and which the Apostle Paul commends in extolling them (Heb. 11), was not given through natural goodness as it was before to Adam, but was bestowed by the grace of God.

And we know and also believe that even after the coming of our Lord this grace is not to be found in the free will of all who desire to be baptized, but is bestowed by the kindness of Christ, as has already been frequently stated and as the Apostle Paul declares, "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake" (Phil. 1:29). And again, "He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and it is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). And as the Apostle says of himself, "I have obtained mercy to be faithful" (1 Cor. 7:25, cf. 1 Tim. 1:13). He did not say, "because I was faithful," but "to be faithful." And again, "What have you that you did not receive?" (1 Cor. 4:7). And again, "Every good endowment and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights" (Jas. 1:17). And again, "No one can receive anything except what is given him from heaven" (John 3:27). There are innumerable passages of holy scripture which can be quoted to prove the case for grace, but they have been omitted for the sake of brevity, because further examples will not really be of use where few are deemed sufficient.

According to the catholic faith we also believe that after grace has been received through baptism, all baptized persons have the ability and responsibility, if they desire to labor faithfully, to perform with the aid and cooperation of Christ what is of essential importance in regard to the salvation of their soul. We not only do not believe that any are foreordained to evil by the power of God, but even state with utter abhorrence that if there are those who want to believe so evil a thing, they are anathema. We also believe and confess to our benefit that in every good work it is not we who take the initiative and are then assisted through the mercy of God, but God himself first inspires in us both faith in him and love for him without any previous good works of our own that deserve reward, so that we may both faithfully seek the sacrament of baptism, and after baptism be able by his help to do what is pleasing to him. We must therefore most evidently believe that the praiseworthy faith of the thief whom the Lord called to his home in paradise, and of Cornelius the centurion, to whom the angel of the Lord was sent, and of Zacchaeus, who was worthy to receive the Lord himself, was not a natural endowment but a gift of God's kindness.

fhansen · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
Romans 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

I understand, in line with the whole counsel of Scripture, that we must do our part in it all. The following all agree with Rom 6:

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:3-4, 12-14

Valletta · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
The sad thing about synergism is that man is responsible to save himself. God cannot or will not do it. Man must do it. You can infuse a hazy notion of God's grace into it, but in the end, if man does not keep (perfectly) his end of the deal he gets tossed into the lake of fire which burns forever and ever. That includes, in the case of the RCC, missing Sunday mass - just even once - unless proper confession and penance is performed. The really nasty reality is that the vast majority of European Catholics don't have a whisper of hope of being saved, if one goes by the attendance statistics of weekly masses in Europe.

You have to have full knowledge and full consent to commit a mortal sin--knowing that you are deeply offending God but going ahead and doing it anyways. So if you know the Catholic Church is Christ's Church of which He is the head, and you know the Church considers something a mortal sin but you do it anyways, and remain obstinate in rejecting Jesus and His Church, then you have the free will to exclude yourself from Heaven. I don't know how many who identify as Catholics in Europe are just identifying culturally and may in fact be Protestants. It's interesting, one of the more popular private revelations is that of the Divine Mercy (Sister Faustina). Sister Faustina says that Jesus revealed to her that He calls to all souls (three times) at the moment of death. I hope that is true.

Fervent · Jun 11, 2024

bbbbbbb said:
The sad thing about synergism is that man is responsible to save himself. God cannot or will not do it. Man must do it.

This is complete hogwash, synergism is not pelagianism. All you've done is created a false dilemma, either God does it all or man does it all. But that's not what's spelled out in Scripture nor what the church has historically maintained, nor is it a logical proposition. God initiates, man responds. God calls, man grabs hold, God grabs hold. Your view seems more based on Luther's Bondage of the Will than on what is in Scripture and has been historically maintained by the church.

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