Harrison Butker talks abortion, fatherhood and a trans activist's funeral

durangodawood

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What that particular verse means to me is that Jesus himself created dissent by challenging religious hypocrites, people who ostracized the strangers--like Samaritans, the proud who bragged about their own religiosity while condemning others.
He never carried a weapon. His sword were his incisive words that laid bare the moral deficiencies of the legalistic and the proud.
That comports with how the Bible reads.

I just cant image Jesus saying he came to literally bring a sword for son to cut up his father. Its grotesque.

In other settings we seem to have no problem understanding Jesus's use of metaphorical language, unless we want to believe He's literally a plant, or a panelled wooden door, etc.
 
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RileyG

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Something like 2 out of 3 Americans are Christians. They vote, they have leadership positions in this country, I live amongst them, deal with them in a daily basis. It is important to understand where they are coming from. That is especially true when some of them tell me what I can and can not do based purely on what their religion tells them.
It’s not about telling what someone can or cannot do. That’s wrong. It’s about how the Christian wants to live their life and choose to be associated with. Thus, you are free to live your life, but some people will not approve of some of your actions. That’s just how it is.
 
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probinson

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The 10 commandments say we are to honor our father and mother. This seems to be dead set against that purpose.

What if your father and mother tell you to curse God? Should you honor them then?

This is the wrong forum for this discussion, but a word study on what it means to "honor" someone would bring some light to the topic.
 
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probinson

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What that particular verse means to me is that Jesus himself created dissent by challenging religious hypocrites, people who ostracized the strangers--like Samaritans, the proud who bragged about their own religiosity while condemning others.
He never carried a weapon. His sword were his incisive words that laid bare the moral deficiencies of the legalistic and the proud.

That's not that far off from what I believe he is saying.

So let's apply that to this situation. Here we have an athlete that was invited to give a commencement speech that none of us would have ever heard had the media not decided that it was an outrage that he dared to utter the word "homemaker". Some people disagree with him, and that's perfectly fine. I didn't agree with everything he said, but let me tell you what I (and likely the majority of the audience that gave him a standing ovation) heard.

What I heard was that for the vast majority of women (and men), you will not find the same fulfillment in a career as you do in the family that you build. Butker alluded to this regarding men when he said, "She's [Butker's wife] the one that ensures I never let football or my business become a distraction from that of a husband and father." In other words, I don't believe that he was saying that women shouldn't work. In fact, he led his comments to women by saying, "Ladies present today, congratulations on an amazing accomplishment. You should be proud of all that you have achieved to this point in your young lives. I want to speak directly to you briefly, because I think it is you, the women, who have had the most diabolical lies told to you. How many of you are sitting here now, about to cross this stage, and are thinking about all the promotions and titles you are going to get in your career?"

You see, what I believe Butker was trying to say, albeit not in the best way, is that it's OK to find fulfillment in your family. Not that women can't (or shouldn't) lead successful careers, but that the core family values of the church are where you generally find the most fulfillment for both men and women. The "diabolical lie" that I believe he is referencing is the idea that the title of "homemaker" is a somehow lesser title than CEO. A sentiment worthy of a standing ovation.

Simply by stating these thoughts and ideas publicly, division was created.

Jesus made it clear that he did not come to bring unity, and the idea that we can somehow have unity with the world is completely contrary to scripture. We are in this world, but we are not of it. And when we dare to speak what we believe boldly, you can rest assured that even those in your own family will turn against you. That is what I believe Jesus is saying here.
 
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probinson

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I just cant image Jesus saying he came to literally bring a sword for son to cut up his father. Its grotesque.

Literally no one here has suggested that.

The "sword" is representative of division. Simply by believing in Jesus, division is created. A mother and father that do not believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ will be at enmity with their children who choose to accept Jesus as their Savior.
 
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durangodawood

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Literally no one here has suggested that.
But you invoked that verse to counter this idea:

"Jesus, Warrior King is a myth promoted by weapons afficianados."

So I took it that you meant Jesus, in that verse, was trying to explicitly endorse weapons or at least promote literal physical war. It was a sensible take by me, I think, given the context.
The "sword" is representative of division. Simply by believing in Jesus, division is created. A mother and father that do not believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ will be at enmity with their children who choose to accept Jesus as their Savior.
Ok. Thats my understanding too.
 
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probinson

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But you invoked that verse to counter this idea:

"Jesus, Warrior King is a myth promoted by weapons afficianados."

I did not.

I posted the scripture reference first in response to the idea in the statement that we should promote "unity" all over the world.

Fantine is (apparently) obsessed with weapons and introduced that concept. That was NEVER my intent in this discussion, and if you read my posts, you'll see that to be the case.

Why on earth would we be talking about the endorsement of weapons in a thread about Harrison Butker's speech and/or interview on EWTN anyway? Beats me.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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It’s not about telling what someone can or cannot do. That’s wrong. It’s about how the Christian wants to live their life and choose to be associated with. Thus, you are free to live your life, but some people will not approve of some of your actions. That’s just how it is.

Christians want to tell my wife what she can do with her reproductive organs. Christians want to tell my cousin who she can marry and that her and her partner shouldn’t be allowed to adopt a child. Christians want to a tell a different cousin of mine that he can’t get hormone therapy.

Instead of using the jackboot of the state to prevent people from doing these things, they could be accomplished by bringing people to faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because people would just not do them due their faith. Instead Christians seek to use the sword of the state to get what they want. Weird, it’s almost like their Messiah didn’t use some of his last words on the planet to command them to just make them disciples of his.

Until such a time as Christians act like the delusional fantasy you painted, I have a deep interest in what Christians believe and why they believe it.
 
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RileyG

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Christians want to tell my wife what she can do with her reproductive organs. Christians want to tell my cousin who she can marry and that her and her partner shouldn’t be allowed to adopt a child. Christians want to a tell a different cousin of mine that he can’t get hormone therapy.

Instead of using the jackboot of the state to prevent people from doing these things, they could be accomplished by bringing people to faith in Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior because people would just not do them due their faith. Instead Christians seek to use the sword of the state to get what they want. Weird, it’s almost like their Messiah didn’t use some of his last words on the planet to command them to just make them disciples of his.

Until such a time as Christians act like the delusional fantasy you painted, I have a deep interest in what Christians believe and why they believe it.
It depends what you mean by what she does with her reproductive organs. If that involves harming an unborn child- then those who are pro-life (including secular people) are strongly opposed to it. As long as the LGBT crowd leaves traditional Christians alone and doesn’t force Christians to participate in their ceremonies- I have no problem with it.

You’re absolutely right that Christian’s should be more focused on spreading the gospel rather than care about other peoples business. That’s true.

However, Christianity is far too diverse to paint a single picture. There are also those who are Christian and ultra liberal.
 
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RileyG

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Their statement says this:

Instead of promoting unity in our church, our nation, and the world, his comments seem to have fostered division.
The sisters seem wholly unaware of the words of Jesus Christ, who said:

Matthew 10:34-36 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Sounds like Jesus was fostering division. I wonder if the sisters will condemn his words as well.
The Benedictine nuns are wonderful people. I’ve known some personally, although not from that particular convent. They know the words of Jesus and live it.
 
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Vambram

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The Benedictine nuns are wonderful people. I’ve known some personally, although not from that particular convent. They know the words of Jesus and live it.
Why did those nuns condemn Harrison Butker's commencement speech at that college graduation?
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Then you agree that Exodus 21:20-21 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.” is still moral according to God since you said is morality does not change.

It appears the church got it wrong by deciding slavery is wrong since an unchanging morally God is giving instruction on how to properly punish one’s property.
I see I need to walk that back. The insights of Malachi, other prophets and books of the Bible make statements about their current understandings. I personally have difficulty discerning "revelation" from interpretations of particle times and settings. I lean toward process theology. There will always be a tension between process and constancy. There always is. I am the same person I was 50 years ago and yet I am not.

The church and its interpretation of the Bible is certainly capable of error. History proves that.
 
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RileyG

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Why did those nuns condemn Harrison Butker's commencement speech at that college graduation?
I don’t know. It probably caused controversy and it didn’t want them to look bad?
 
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Pommer

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…It’s about how the Christian wants to live their life and choose to be associated with. Thus, you are free to live your life, but some people will not approve of some of your actions. That’s just how it is.
This is fine so long as the power of the government isn’t enlisted to enforce “ChristIan values” on the Heathen.
 
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RileyG

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This is fine so long as the power of the government isn’t enlisted to enforce “ChristIan values” on the Heathen.
Yes. That’s right.
 
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Fantine

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I take umbrage with any
Catholic suggesting it is more appropriate for Catholics to vote for a twice impeached, 91-times indicted malfeasant, found liable for about $600 million for tax fraud, insurance fraud, operating a fraudulent university, and assaulting a woman (with 20 other credible accusers ) Someone who sought overturn a valid election and wants to become a totalitarian dictator, imprison 11 million immigrants in camp, and go after his enemies.
And this delusional, entitled athlete thinks the "diabolical messages" emanate from Biden.
Anyone who promotes someone with curriculum vitae like that is bringing the diabolical message.
 
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probinson

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I take umbrage with any
Catholic suggesting it is more appropriate for Catholics to vote for a twice impeached, 91-times indicted malfeasant, found liable for about $600 million for tax fraud, insurance fraud, operating a fraudulent university, and assaulting a woman (with 20 other credible accusers ) Someone who sought overturn a valid election and wants to become a totalitarian dictator, imprison 11 million immigrants in camp, and go after his enemies.

Wow. Triggered much?

And this delusional, entitled athlete thinks the "diabolical messages" emanate from Biden.

I'm sorry, what? At no point did Butker encourage anyone to vote one way or the other. You really should watch the speech so you stop spreading misinformation.
 
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probinson

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His harsh criticism of a man who looks like a choirboy compared to his opponent spoke for itself.

Butker referenced Biden exactly once in the speech. This is what he said:

Our own nation is led by a man who publicly and proudly proclaims his Catholic faith but at the same time is delusional enough to make the sign of the cross during a pro-abortion rally. He has been so vocal in his support for the murder of innocent babies that I'm sure to many people it appears that you can be both Catholic and pro-choice.

So Butker opined on Biden's stance concerning abortion. I suppose to some that might be "harsh criticism", but he's entitled to that opinion.

That's the only time he referenced Biden and he didn't reference Trump at all. So your assertion that Butker "thinks the 'diabolical messages' emanate from Biden" is blatant misinformation.

You're simply proving over and over again that you haven't taken the time to watch the speech. You are free to disagree with any or all of it but it's apparent to anyone who actually listened to the entire speech that you're railing against things that he never said or even implied.
 
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Fantine

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I know plenty of Catholics who are pro-choice and many who are anti-abortion.
I'm pretty much don't ask don't tell. But my pro-choice friends don't walk around like Pharisees proclaiming the long list of anti-life policies the self-identified pro-lifers support.
They are grateful that they are ministering in one area of concern while they keep busy with everything most pro-lifers ignore--social justice, immigration, climate change/environmental, refugees, world peace, world hunger, and more. I respect both groups most who work with direct service and help rather than political lobbying.
Similarly, if you aren't trying to conserve our natural resources yourself, your environmental activism doesn't mean much.
 
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