probinson

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I'm really curious about that number. I'm guessing, since the government provides subsidies for individuals to put fast chargers in their homes, that it includes home chargers. As such, 800 per day starts becoming much more believable.

It does not.

It's speaking specifically about public chargers. From the letter:

Despite the $7.5 billion allocated two years ago to build public electric vehicle charging stations, just three have been opened to date. Range anxiety is a major factor in consumers’ reluctance to buy electric vehicles. Based on the government’s estimates, 2.8 million public chargers will be needed by 2032, but only 170,000 public chargers exist today. That means 800 new chargers would have to be built every single day -- for the next nine years. Clearly, this is not even in the realm of possibility.

Um... a Chevy Spark is a gas car. I'm going to assume you meant a Chevy Bolt,

You are correct. I misspoke.

which is pretty much the slowest charging EV in the US.

It's also the only one a lot of people can afford.

And, while 6 hours appears to be either an exaggeration or poor planning, looking at something like A Better Route Planner would indicate that trip should have taken just over 4 hours of charging in a Chevy Bolt. But, again, the Bolt is an outlier as it "fast" charges roughly 3 times slower than most other EVs sold in the US. As for home charging, it actually charges at a good rate.

Oh. So only 8 hours of additional time. A full work day wasted sitting at charing stations.

You seem to do a great job of trying to minimize everything when it comes to your gas car and maximizing everything when it comes to an EV.

That could be because when I take a road trip in my ICE vehicle I don't even give my car a second thought. I stop to get gas when I need to, but that's about as far as my concern with my car goes. Not so with an EV. I have to plan the trip around my car's ability to get me where I need to go.

Funny how, in another post, you talk about 5 minute refueling when you are at home but then talk about 2-3 minute refueling on a road trip. Of course, as you point out, you need to take bathroom breaks and likely get snacks (at a minimum) so that likely stretches out the stop to at least 20 minutes, and on a thousand mile trip I would think you stop to eat at least once -- and likely more than once, since we are talking about a full day of travel.

What's your point? Even if my stop takes me the 18 minutes that Kia advertises to charge from 10-80%, I still only gain roughly 200 miles of range. That same 18-minute stop gains me nearly 500 miles of range in my ICE vehicle.

Now, to go back to your Greenville example (since you don't say where you are coming from or where in Florida you are going), for my EV6 we're talking about 4 stops taking 98 minutes (plus whatever extra slowdowns of eating, etc). Driving time, if you didn't have to stop, is around 10 hours, so you are talking about 10% longer compared to a gas car -- lower if you need to make extra stops for driver fatigue, bathroom breaks, and eating. Ten percent does not seem like a hugely different amount; particularly since the extra stops mean you'll have a more comfortable trip (less driver fatigue with the stops, not feeling as still and cramped from sitting in the car for hours at a time, etc). Basically, either way you are losing a full day to driving.

That's some funny math. I tell you what. I'll get in my car and take the trip and you hop in your EV. We'll leave at the same time. Let's see how much quicker I get there than you. FTR, the trip took my brother-in-law so long that he opted to stop halfway and spend the night in a hotel. Something he never did before he had the EV.

I'm not sure why you think stopping for reasons other than to refuel or recharge even factor in to the equation. I suppose you're thinking that you could multi-task, like eat and charge at the same time. But that depends on the availability of a charger where you want to eat and requires far more planning than is required in an ICE vehicle.

Further, you obviously don't travel with me. I do not stop unless I absolutely have to. I stop for gas, to use the restroom, and usually to run through the drive-thru and get something to eat while I continue driving. On a long trip like that, I might stop once to actually go inside to eat. Just depends. I like to get where I'm going when I'm driving.

I'm sorry if it bothers you that EVs simply present all kinds of hurdles and inconveniences for my use-case of a long road trip. But it's true.

I'll address more of your objections in your next post on the topic.

I'm absolutely giddy with anticipation.
 
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QvQ

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All I know about EV's is my "rah rah" go green, vote Biden brother paid big $$$ for an EV.
Now when he calls and starts talking about his EV, I lay the phone down until he quits ranting and raving.
Don't ask me what the complaints are. I don't even listen
I told him not to buy it until the technology caught up and now I really don't want to hear it.
 
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SimplyMe

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Just for fun, let's look at an actual EV available today.

I am very intrigued by the Kia EV6. It's a sharp looking EV that, were it not $50K+, I might have purchased.

I was interested in a few different EVs, the EV6 originally wasn't that high on my list (I preferred its sister car the Hyundai Ioniq 5).

I currently own a 2022 Kia K5 GT-Line AWD. I'm quite happy with that car. I paid just over $30K.

The EV6 has similar styling and options. So let's price an EV6 with similar options to my current K5 and see what I would get.

An EV6 GT-Line AWD with similar options to my current K5 is currently listed at $59,560. That's nearly double what I paid for my K5.

Actually, comparing the two (since I'm familiar with the EV6), your K5 is actually more of a comparison to the EV6 Wind AWD, though even it still seems to have extras on it that your K5 doesn't. Of course, if you want to add that to your complaint, the fact remains that EVs are still being treated as "luxury" cars and so they come with a ton of extra features, more than on equivalent gas cars; and that isn't counting the performance differences. Granted, the K5 GT-line AWD is pretty quick, but the EV6 AWD (any trim) is roughly a second faster to 60.

So, if we go with the Kia EV6 Wind AWD, we are looking at an MSRP of $52,600. The K5 GT-line AWD has an MSRP is $28,690, and since you paid $30K (or more), I have to assume you got it with at least the Premium Package -- which is good because you'd be missing some major features that come standard on the EV6 Wind. The EV6 Wind, with Tech package, comes with features that aren't available on any trim of the K5.

The next issue, though, is that the EV6 (and you can argue the reasons for this) currently has roughly $10K in incentives -- meaning that the actual price for a Kia EV6 is closer to $42K -- and the rest depends on your negotiation skills. So, yes, still $10K more than you paid, but hardly double what you paid.

In my case, I went used, as there are some great used deals right now. I bought my EV6 for, it sounds like, roughly the same price as your K5 -- my car is a 2023 that had roughly 12,500 miles. I actually thought, originally, that I'd buy a Bolt EUV, again a used 2023 with under 10,000 miles, that I'd about $20K for. The EV6 was just too much nicer, not to mention the ability to road trip (which isn't a primary concern, for me).

The range of the EV6 GT-Line AWD at ideal driving conditions is rated at around 250 miles (I'm being generous. If you read up on EV6 owners' forums, the more realistic range is 200 miles). Kia claims that you can charge from 10-80% in just 18 minutes and most owners confirm that this is realistic. So that means that if the range of a full charge is 250 miles, we can only use 90% of that, or 225 miles, before it would need charged at 10%. Then that 18 minutes is only going to add 70% of the overall range, since it's charging from 10-80%. So roughly 175 miles.

Again, we went over this, you would add roughly 10% extra time. How burdensome people find this is a matter of opinion. I would have hated it when I was young and stupid; though even then I hated eating in the car. My issue with eating in the car, at least as a driver, is that it is unsafe -- it is almost like texting while driving.

Of course, then I had kids -- they will force you to slow down and you will be stopping every 200 miles. ;) And as I aged I realized that slowing down on road trips helped make the trip much more enjoyable, not to mention much safer. But, again, I can understand where you are now; I once drove roughly 1600 miles in roughly 28 hours (alone in the car) at a time when my priority was just getting there; which I couldn't have done in an EV.
All above considered, I can drive continuously for ~200 miles before I have to stop for 18 minutes to get another 200 miles. EVgo currently charges $1 + $0.36/kWh to charge. The battery for the EV6 is 77.4 kWh. 70% of that is 54.18kWh. That means each charge would cost $1 + $19.50, or $20.50 to travel 200 miles. Given the 1,000 miles it takes me to drive to Florida, I would have to stop 5 times, meaning it would cost me $102.50 to drive to Florida in charging fees.

In my current K5 on the highway, I can travel ~500 miles on a full tank of gas. That full tank is currently costing me around $40. Which means that I can go 1,000 miles in my K5 for around $80.

Not only would I have to pay $30K MORE than I paid for my K5 to get an EV6 (with a payment approaching $1K/month), but it would actually cost me MORE to charge my car on long-distance road trips.

Yes, it seems charging rates right now are higher than they should be; at the same time there does seem to be a premium being paid now because of the costs of rolling out the infrastructure. At the same time, interesting you aren't comparing costs when you are at home and doing (likely) 95% of your driving. Also, you seem to be understating the cost of filling your car -- a 15.7 (I believe) gallon tank. Assuming you refill with the .7 (so we don't have to worry about it) when you are getting warnings of being "empty," it would seem filling your tank would cost over $50 -- it appears in Pennsylvania $3.50/gallon is one of the cheaper gas prices. As such, the price on a road trip between your car and an EV would be relatively similar.

The difference is the cost of traveling when you are home. Typically people can get electric at roughly $.10 per kWh, making the EV far cheeper to fuel. Additionally, there is the advantage of never needing to stop at a gas station yet still starting out each morning with a full charge (though, granted, full on EVs -- depending on battery type and how much you care about degradation -- is often 80% of full).

It's not that I haven't considered this. It's that the costs and the technology are simply not analogous to ICE vehicles, and depending on your use-case, you might actually end up paying MORE to charge your EV than you would for gas.

You could but, for most people who aren't driving long distance most of the time, overall it ends up much cheaper even with an occasional road trip.
 
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rambot

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The main concerns people have with EVs are as follows:

  • Cost. While this is narrowing, if you want an EV with comparable options to an ICE vehicle, you will likely spend 2x as much or more.
  • Range. EVs simply cannot travel as far as their ICE equivalents on a single charge. 250-300 miles is typical. But on the open road, an ICE vehicle can travel 500+ miles before needing to stop for a fill-up.
  • Range. Again. Yes, you can make the claim that EV costs are slowly coming more in-line with ICE vehicles, but only on the base, short-range models. Long-range models often cost many thousands more to gain more miles. The opposite is true for ICE vehicles. If you buy a smaller engine in a lower trim, you may actually get better gas mileage than if you opt for the bigger engine in more luxury trims.
  • Charging time. It takes considerably longer to charge an EV than it does to fuel an ICE vehicle.
  • Charing cost. As I showed in my EV6 example earlier, it can actually cost MORE to charge your EV on long road trips.
  • Charging availability. This is becoming less of a problem, but the fact that there are apps available to help you pre-plan where you can stop to charge your EV on a road-trip is a pretty good indicator that EV charging is not nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations.
  • Cold weather performance. It's s simple fact that batteries do not perform nearly as well in cold-weather conditions. Since this is your only source for powering your car, people in colder temperatures will experience excessively long charging times and reduced range.
  • Convenience. If I am going somewhere and I forgot to fill-up in my ICE vehicle, I can stop at any gas station for 5-minutes to fuel up and go. In an EV if you didn't realize your charge was low, you might have to wait an hour or more, and that's only if you paid to have a fast-charger in your home. If you forgot to plug in and have to rely on your 110v outlet, I hope you can wait 40+ hours.
Read more issues here:


The issues are plenteous. They are real. And they all must be overcome to achieve a fully EV world.



Thanks for acknowledging that purchasing an EV will present "inconveniences" for people who purchase them.
I'm curious. Given that EVs also require FAR less maintenance, when it comes to things like "wasting time charging", do you include time spent getting oil changes, changing sparkplugs and other components (and if they aren't done by yourself, are you affected by not having a vehicle while its in the shop?)

Fact is that there are sacrifices people make with the ICEs as well. But we are so USED to those we call them "expectations" and we don't really think of them when it comes to a hindrance. It's just something you have do to use that kind of car

Who is to say that same attitude wouldn't become commonplace around a 10-20 minute charging station (which WILL happen at some point in the not too distant future? And, who is to say if you had a good attitude about it, that it would be challenging to come to that understanding?

Now try to convince someone why they should spend twice as much for a vehicle that will present inconveniences to them.

Ford F150 Lighting (EV Truck) 59,990$
Ford F150 $49,000

Chevrolet Blazer EV $57,000
Chevrolet Blazer $42, 779

These are the MSRPs that a 30second google search can give.

I have a feeling you haven't seen the price of EVs for at least 5 years or so.
 
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rambot

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All I know about EV's is my "rah rah" go green, vote Biden brother paid big $$$ for an EV.
Now when he calls and starts talking about his EV, I lay the phone down until he quits ranting and raving.
Don't ask me what the complaints are. I don't even listen
I told him not to buy it until the technology caught up and now I really don't want to hear it.
ROFL! So you know someone who loves their vehicle, but instead of having an open mind and listening to an owner's ACTUAL experience, you harump and ignore him because you disagree that he should be liking and using the technology??


That's......hilarious. Just prefer to be grouchy about it I guess hey?
 
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hislegacy

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Screenshot 2024-03-22 125336.jpg
 
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QvQ

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You might google up the term "battery".

ROFL! So you know someone who loves their vehicle, but instead of having an open mind and listening to an owner's ACTUAL experience, you harump and ignore him because you disagree that he should be liking and using the technology??


That's......hilarious. Just prefer to be grouchy about it I guess hey?
No, He Absolutely Hates His EV. And I don't listen to his litany of complaints delivered at the top of his voice.

He is rabid Democrat. His neighbor is Maga Republican.
They haven't spoken to each other for 11 years.

When the ice storm happened, my brother (all electric) huddled under blankets eating peanut butter sandwiches for 8 Days.
His neighbor was truly ashamed when he realized, after the fact, that my brother froze, while the neighbor has a wood stove. He was warm, eating hot food which he would have been glad to share.
Anyhow, the neighbor, after the storm, helped my brother install a wood stove in his house, in case the electric goes out again.
And my brother drives the neighbor to the doctor in my brother's gas powered truck while the EV sits in the drive way. hated by all concerned.
They talk about the appalling price of groceries, the fact the neighbor may lose his house because of taxes and, of course, that rotten EV.

So some good came out of all that. Neighbors helping neighbors.
 
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rjs330

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Grocery prices finally dipped in March, falling for the first time since September 2020, according to data released Wednesday by the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
Of six major grocery food group indexes, three fell from February to March. The meats, poultry, fish and eggs index fell 1.4%, pulled down by another month of large decreases in egg prices.

Ironically, while global food prices have soared, U.S. prices are moderating and even declining.

And here's why it's not harming consumers:
View attachment 343873
Good news for America; bad new for Trump.
Well I'm glad they are dipping a bit. But a small dip doesn't make up for the giant growth of inflation. No one is fooled by this. The Democrats are not fooled either they are just trying to blow smoke into everyone's eyes so they have a hard time seeing the truth. Problem is everyone has a fan.

The economy was better under Trump. Everyone knows it. We are not fooled.
 
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SimplyMe

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It does not.

It's speaking specifically about public chargers. From the letter:

Despite the $7.5 billion allocated two years ago to build public electric vehicle charging stations, just three have been opened to date. Range anxiety is a major factor in consumers’ reluctance to buy electric vehicles. Based on the government’s estimates, 2.8 million public chargers will be needed by 2032, but only 170,000 public chargers exist today. That means 800 new chargers would have to be built every single day -- for the next nine years. Clearly, this is not even in the realm of possibility.

Fair enough, though it still isn't quite as crazy as it sounds. First, this is talking about chargers, so 800 chargers might be 8 charging stations with 100 chargers each. Still ambitious but not quite as crazy as it sounds. And before you talk about finding land for that huge charging station, they'd likely use existing parking lots. A mall parking lot with thousands of parking stalls would be ideal for that type of charging station, including the fact that malls are typically built on the side of highways.

Though, again, I'd suspect that most of those chargers are Level 2 type chargers -- the type of chargers you'd find in a home. The reason for this is the large number of people in metropolitan areas who either rent or own homes but don't have a garage/driveway. This is one of the major issues that needs to be done for EVs to work and can be done much faster than you are thinking. I'd guess that maybe as many as 2 million of the needed public chargers is based on this idea.

You are correct. I misspoke.



It's also the only one a lot of people can afford.

And it is a great car for a lot of people. There are a lot of people who rarely drive long distances -- if they vacation they fly and then rent a car where they are driving to. Or, as you point out, for a lot of people it may be a second car; since in the US we average 1.88 cars per household.

Oh. So only 8 hours of additional time. A full work day wasted sitting at charing stations.

Yes, in a round trip in the worst fast charging car, one that is no longer being built. The Bolt isn't being built this year, it will return next year on GM's Ultium platform which has much faster charging. I think you also miss that the average price of a new car in the US is $47,000 -- and you can buy a large number of EVs in the US currently, to include the EV6 (at least with the discounts they've had this year), for that price.

That could be because when I take a road trip in my ICE vehicle I don't even give my car a second thought. I stop to get gas when I need to, but that's about as far as my concern with my car goes. Not so with an EV. I have to plan the trip around my car's ability to get me where I need to go.

This I will agree with. We are in the beginnings of EVs and, because of this, the infrastructure to support large scale adoption of EVs isn't there yet. It is getting better daily, particularly with Tesla plug style becoming the standard in the US -- and so almost all current EVs having the ability in the next year to use Tesla Superchargers. Granted, it won't really go away until you have EV fast chargers off almost every freeway exit in rural areas. In cities you really only would need most in suburbs, as people living in the city will largely charge at home and people on road trips would likely not want to stop in the city (not to mention the increased cost due to land value).

I'll agree that until road trips are easier, that apps like A Better Route Planner, as well as apps to find EV chargers like Plugshare are no longer needed, will EVs be ready for most people. Having said that, while it does require a bit of planning, road tripping with an EV isn't that difficult. For example, using the navigation in my EV6, it will not only route me but add in the charging stations and approximate how long I'll need to be at each charging station.

Of course, it would help if more automakers would do what Ford did, giving the charge and current efficiency of their EVs to Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, so that you can use Android Auto or Apple CarPlay and have Apple or Google Maps navigate and include charging stops based on battery charge and usage while you are driving.

What's your point? Even if my stop takes me the 18 minutes that Kia advertises to charge from 10-80%, I still only gain roughly 200 miles of range. That same 18-minute stop gains me nearly 500 miles of range in my ICE vehicle.

Just pointing out it isn't quite as simple as you are trying to make it.

That's some funny math. I tell you what. I'll get in my car and take the trip and you hop in your EV. We'll leave at the same time. Let's see how much quicker I get there than you. FTR, the trip took my brother-in-law so long that he opted to stop halfway and spend the night in a hotel. Something he never did before he had the EV.

I'm not sure what the race would be for, I've already conceded that my EV would take roughly 10% longer. Even in a gas car, I'd still likely take 10% longer as at my age I find I need extra stops, if just to keep from getting stiff and sore from sitting for too long.

As for your brother-in-law, I'd need more information but, from what I know, he didn't know how to road trip in an EV. Yes, you can complain about how you need to know things but there is some degree of learning for ICE cars, just that is what we are all used to. As one example, if you are driving in your car and you get an icon showing your car is overheating, you need to understand what the icon means as well as what you need to do about it. Granted, this doesn't happen nearly as often as when I was young but still can happen; cars today are far more reliable than when I was young -- particularly with how much complex they are from added tech.

My point is that you need to understand the car you are driving and, if you are coming from a gas car, there is going to be a learning curve. To some degree (though you may feel it is unfair), those who don't try to learn about an EV and depend on their ICE knowledge aren't that different from the idiots who don't learn about their gas car -- such as the fact that anti-freeze and oil levels need to be checked, and also replaced, on occasion.

I'm not sure why you think stopping for reasons other than to refuel or recharge even factor in to the equation. I suppose you're thinking that you could multi-task, like eat and charge at the same time. But that depends on the availability of a charger where you want to eat and requires far more planning than is required in an ICE vehicle.

Not as much as you are thinking. As a prime example is your saying you get take out (or drive thru) and eat in the car; it is easy to do the same thing but drive the extra minute or two to a charging station and eat while charging -- assuming there is nothing you want within walking distance.

Further, you obviously don't travel with me. I do not stop unless I absolutely have to. I stop for gas, to use the restroom, and usually to run through the drive-thru and get something to eat while I continue driving. On a long trip like that, I might stop once to actually go inside to eat. Just depends. I like to get where I'm going when I'm driving.

I'm sorry if it bothers you that EVs simply present all kinds of hurdles and inconveniences for my use-case of a long road trip. But it's true.

It doesn't bother me at all. Again, I used to do that. Of course, I'm also guessing that you've turned your "Driver fatigue" warning off (I assume you have one similar to the one I have built into the car).

What I'm actually trying to show is that many of your complaints are overblown. Great, you don't want to road trip with one, then don't. For me, I can't see myself going back to a gas car. Yes, there are trade-offs and there are also some clear advantages. I love how quiet it is, how I can idle the car -- even pre-warm it before going out -- and not having to worry about the emissions or if I'm getting carbon monoxide into the cabin. I love the ability to start every morning with a full charge. I'm sure there are more things but it gives an idea of a few of the advantages.

I'm absolutely giddy with anticipation.
:)
 
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The Barbarian

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Well I'm glad they are dipping a bit. But a small dip doesn't make up for the giant growth of inflation.
The interesting thing is, the rebound from the pandemic wasn't as bad in the United States as it was in other nations. And because Trump bungled the pandemic response, we had more deaths per million than those nations. But Biden did better than most other leaders. From last July:

The US economy is doing way better than the rest of the rich world

  • The US is performing much better than many other wealthy nations when comparing economic growth and inflation rates.
  • The US had the highest GDP growth since the start of the pandemic among the G7 countries, an informal group of industrialized democracies.
  • This data further suggests the US is not heading toward a recession.

The economists had it right. We should have been headed into a recession, instead we have continued growth.
Most important, wages are growing faster than inflation:

No one is fooled by this. The republicans are not fooled either they are just trying to blow smoke into everyone's eyes so they have a hard time seeing the truth. Problem is everyone has a fan.

The economy is better under Biden. And now, the polls show more and more people realize it. You can't fool people forever.
 
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rjs330

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The economy is better under Biden. And now, the polls show more and more people realize it. You can't fool people forever.
No it's not. The fact that prices have skyrocketed and now slowed to still over 3% inflation you aren't fooling anyone. We had large inflation which have driven up prices. We all know this. So it went from as high as 8% to now over 3% is a huge black eye on ole Joe. You think that over 3% right now makes up for the 8%? I don't. And neither do most Americans. You aren't fooling anyone.
 
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The Barbarian

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The economy is better under Biden. And now, the polls show more and more people realize it. You can't fool people forever.
No it's not.
It's really too late to deny the facts. I get that you don't like that the U.S. economy is doing so much better than others in the post-pandemic world. But it is.

The US economy is doing way better than the rest of the rich world


As you learned, wages are rising faster than inflation.
Wage growth vs inflation U.S. 2024 | Statista

Try to find a way to live with it.
 
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iluvatar5150

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As we've already discussed, you live in a fairly rural area where they're not popular, but pickups are popular. I, OTOH, live in a city, where EV's are common and pickups are rare.

Exactly right. EVs are currently a class separator. That has to change for mass adoption.

No, they're more of a rural-urban/suburban separator, or an aesthetic separator. Sticker price on a base Model 3 is $39k and $44k for a Model Y. (the #12 and #5 most popular new cars in 2023). The top 3 most popular vehicles were the Ford F-series (base msrp $37k), Chevy Silverado (base msrp $37k), and Dodge Ram (base msrp $39k).

These vehicles are all very nearly the same price.
 
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No it's not. The fact that prices have skyrocketed and now slowed to still over 3% inflation you aren't fooling anyone. We had large inflation which have driven up prices. We all know this. So it went from as high as 8% to now over 3% is a huge black eye on ole Joe. You think that over 3% right now makes up for the 8%? I don't. And neither do most Americans. You aren't fooling anyone.
Inflation is not the sole metric of whether or not an economy is doing well. In fact, inflation can plummet into the negative (i.e. deflation) during a recession.

I can appreciate why some folks would think that, but it belies a misunderstanding of what's going on.
 
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SimplyMe

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The main concerns people have with EVs are as follows:

  • Cost. While this is narrowing, if you want an EV with comparable options to an ICE vehicle, you will likely spend 2x as much or more.

I think I showed this is false. They are still somewhat more expensive but that gap has narrowed and continues to narrow. Again, for the average cost of what is paid for a new car in the US, there are several EV options that are often better optioned than their ICE equivalent.

  • Range. EVs simply cannot travel as far as their ICE equivalents on a single charge. 250-300 miles is typical. But on the open road, an ICE vehicle can travel 500+ miles before needing to stop for a fill-up.

Range is a difference but it makes little difference for most (likely 90%) of Americans, except for maybe a couple of road trips per year.

  • Range. Again. Yes, you can make the claim that EV costs are slowly coming more in-line with ICE vehicles, but only on the base, short-range models. Long-range models often cost many thousands more to gain more miles. The opposite is true for ICE vehicles. If you buy a smaller engine in a lower trim, you may actually get better gas mileage than if you opt for the bigger engine in more luxury trims.

No, the EV costs are similar even with the longer range trims. In fact, in general the short range trims are being phased out by most manufacturers, in the US (they still do well in other areas of the world), because they don't sell. Again, your EV6 Wind AWD has an EPA 274 miles of range and can be easily purchased for less than the average new car price. If you go for the EV6 Wind RWD, it is about $4,000 cheaper and actually has more range, 310 miles. The Hyundai Ioniq 5 gets slightly lower range (maybe 10 miles less) but costs roughly the same as the Kia (and they share the same battery, motor, etc). There are also VW ID4s, Tesla Model 3, the Model Y if you qualify for the $7500 federal incentive. I suspect the Ford Mach E, Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru would also work but haven't checked their pricing with incentives recently.

  • Charging time. It takes considerably longer to charge an EV than it does to fuel an ICE vehicle.

Only really applicable when on a road trip.

  • Charing cost. As I showed in my EV6 example earlier, it can actually cost MORE to charge your EV on long road trips.

No, you fudged your numbers a bit -- using gas prices that are closer to $2.50/gallon; at current prices it is roughly the same. And you completely ignored that since 90% of your driving is local, it is far cheaper to drive the EV (particularly if you start including oil changes).

  • Charging availability. This is becoming less of a problem, but the fact that there are apps available to help you pre-plan where you can stop to charge your EV on a road-trip is a pretty good indicator that EV charging is not nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations.

Again, only when road tripping. Though it does point out that EV ownership likely isn't for people in apartments or townhouses (without driveway) currently, assuming they don't have an easy way to charge at home. On top of that, it saves you time as you don't need to go to fuel stations locally.

  • Cold weather performance. It's s simple fact that batteries do not perform nearly as well in cold-weather conditions. Since this is your only source for powering your car, people in colder temperatures will experience excessively long charging times and reduced range.

Reduced range, yes. Interestingly, though, ICE cars experience a similar loss in efficiency; just with more range you tend not to really notice it. Again, at home it likely won't really affect your charging speeds that much. Also, most cars should pre-condition prior to going to chargers (and if they don't, their owners need to pester the manufacturer until they add it since it is basically a software fix), at which point they charge just as fast as during the summer. While you can point to isolated instances in the US, I'll point to Canada not having similar issues; or better yet, I'd point to Norway, with much higher adoption of EVs, and yet not having those issues with their cold winters.

  • Convenience. If I am going somewhere and I forgot to fill-up in my ICE vehicle, I can stop at any gas station for 5-minutes to fuel up and go. In an EV if you didn't realize your charge was low, you might have to wait an hour or more, and that's only if you paid to have a fast-charger in your home. If you forgot to plug in and have to rely on your 110v outlet, I hope you can wait 40+ hours.

Not a "fast charger," just a Level 2 charger. It will work of any 220v outlet and costs a few hundred dollars (from about $250 up, depending on how fancy you want it, such as being able to control it with your smartphone). The "high cost" of the 220v charger is if you have to add a 220v plug near where you want to charge your car -- and there are federal and local incentives that pay for much of it, not to mention some car manufacturers will help pay when you buy their car (it was one nice thing about the low cost Bolt, as Chevy would pay up to about $2000 to get a Level 2 charger installed. And, if you have a charger in your home, you are far less likely to "forget" to the point you don't have enough charge for a local trip then forgetting to go get gas (which requires an amount of time and effort).

And your 40+ hours for Level 1 (100v) is unrealistic. Not that it doesn't take that long to charge the car but that most people don't drive that far in a day. My daughter rents a home right now and so won't invest in a 220v charger, since they aren't going to pay to upgrade the rental. She drives maybe 30 miles per day with work and literally only plugs in on the weekend. The fact is, even with a Level 1, she can put roughly 40 miles a night into her car, more than she will drive most days. In fact, the average in the US is that people drive less than 40 miles per day -- meaning most people can easily get by with a Level 1 charger. And, again, if they forget a couple of days, the still have at least 150 miles of range and can just plug in longer over the weekend (though, actually, the advice is just to plug in every time you come home -- so your car is always at full charge).

It is extremely unlikely your EV will be "empty" and you'll have forgotten to charge -- more likely it will have a half charge or so.

Read more issues here:


The issues are plenteous. They are real. And they all must be overcome to achieve a fully EV world.

I'm shocked, shocked that someone from the American Energy Institute, started to help promote fossil fuels over alternative energy, would write a hit piece about EVs using questionable arguments. I have to love the line, "In frigid weather, fragile EV batteries are forced to drain their own power to maintain warmth." I mean, seriously, a gas car has some way to heat the car without burning gasoline? The only reason it makes any kind of sense is that roughly 50% of the energy created from an engine burning gasoline is lost to heat -- and so if you use 1% of that heat you can use it to heat the cabin, so you only have a "loss" of 49%. But also, to be fair, that 50% is with one of the more efficient gas engines -- it is as high as 65% in less efficient engines.

Thanks for acknowledging that purchasing an EV will present "inconveniences" for people who purchase them. Now try to convince someone why they should spend twice as much for a vehicle that will present inconveniences to them.
Why, when EVs aren't twice as expensive? To give a different example, my daughter bought (and she didn't consult with me at all, and got hers before I bought mine) an EV6 Wind AWD to replace her Kia Stinger; yet is happy because she is paying less for the EV6 (better equipped than your K5 with Smart Park -- or from the Hyundai commercial "smaht pahk" -- and the blind spot camera when she uses the turn signals) than she did for the Stinger. She is loving the car, as I said, paying far less in fuel (just plugging it in every weekend to keep it charged) and even starting to plan a road trip for the summer (and having used it for road trips to her in-laws). I will say that, with a 3 year old, she can't do your strategy of driving without stops anyway, so the charging stops don't bother her. Now, if you want, you can check into me later this summer to see if she's still so thrilled with it after the road trip.

My experience is that the people who do their research, who understand the real advantages and disadvantages (not like your above article), tend to be thrilled with their EVs. It is the people who buy them because they are "trendy" and "green" without really understanding them are the ones that get frustrated (such as your example).

And I'm not claiming EVs are for everyone, at least now. There are people who drive long distances almost daily. In Houston, I knew people that lived a couple of hours from their work. There are salesmen that drive hundreds of miles in a day. Plenty of examples, though they are a relatively small minority, over all. The biggest issue, though, is that it does likely require a change of habits -- plugging it in when you go home rather than going to a gas station, doing a bit more planning before taking road trips and getting out of "get their now" mentality, etc.

As more EVs are on the road we will see more fast chargers installed along major highways. We'll see improvements in battery technology -- particularly if Toyota (and the many other companies working on similar tech) can bring their capacitive battery (they claim 745 miles) to market in a few years, as they claim. Then you actually will have a much larger range on an EV that can charge in 5 or 10 minutes. Granted, I think it will take a bit longer, but things will change a lot with EVs over the next couple of decades.
 
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QvQ

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Granted, I think it will take a bit longer, but things will change a lot with EVs over the next couple of decades.
Key Word: DECADES
It took about 50 years to switch from horses to cars.
The Horse Cavalry was still in operation 1942.
Granted, the technology may not take so long
However it is not going to happen by government force in 5 years.
 
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Valletta

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I think it's wonderful to have electric cars as an option for people to buy. That being said, the Biden administration's mandates are interfering in the private market. While they are backing off on their deadlines due to pressure from auto workers and labor unions, the program is poorly thought out and may very well damage the country economically and environmentally.
 
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SimplyMe

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There was an ice storm in Oregon. The electricity was off for 8 days or so.
Remember the ice storms in Texas and no one had any power.

Yes, I have a good recollection of the ice storms in Texas -- and how I couldn't have gotten gasoline for my ICE vehicle. I also remember people getting stuck on the highways in Texas before a hurricane and running out of gas. I remember after a hurricane not being able to get gasoline (no power, people bought out gas before the hurricane hit, etc. In fact, a week or so after the hurricane I remember hour long lines to get gasoline (both for cars and generators). An EV really does not make a huge amount of difference compared to an ICE vehicle in these situations.

My brother nearly froze in Oregon as he is rah rah all electric
His EV was useless but then he has a gas powered pickup and now a wood burning stove...just in case.

Not sure what why his EV would be useless. Yes, he'd have difficulties charging it until power was restored but he'd have similar issues with a gas vehicle. Especially in that type of ice storm you aren't going anywhere, as a general rule.

He is getting very bitter against EV's, electric heaters and cook stoves.
He has alternate systems for backup now. A propane camp stove, for instance.

Now I can understand being upset about solar panels, particularly if he took himself off the grid. At the same time, being upset at it is about like being upset at the power company because they can't supply power to your home. Yes, there is a reason there is a market for things like generators, wood stoves -- things you typically buy to use if there is an emergency, and that is largely the only time you use those items.

At the same time, I recall a man in Austin during the Texas freeze who did quite well with his solar panels (which had batteries to store electricity) and his Tesla. While he generated less power from his solar, when it was storming during the day, he still got some to top off the batteries. Once it cleared up but was still freezing, he was in great shape.

This is the problem I have with my solar irrigation pump. I need water every day, all day long but I only get water when the sun shines.
It is not "on demand."

So the EV charging stations are all going to have to be on the grid. The grid does not go everywhere. Some folks are off grid. Yes, I know. Solar power but all the solar powered off grid folks I know have backup diesel generators. Those generators supply more power than the solar.

Yes, EV charging stations are on the grid -- much like most gas stations are. And what people forget, while a few gas stations might have generators so they can keep pumping gas -- the fact is in those conditions the gas trucks supplying the stations can't get through. You still have no way to "power" your car -- well, except if that gas station owner has an EV charging station, the charging station will continue to work as long as he can power his generator (no deliveries required).

The same for any home with a generator, they can charge the EV -- no worry about gas stations being shut down to being out of power or out of gas.
 
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I think it's wonderful to have electric cars as an option for people to buy. That being said, the Biden administration's mandates are interfering in the private market.

If you think the current transportation landscape represents a "private market," you really have no idea what you're talking about. There are government incentives all over the place, most of them propping up longer-range ICE vehicles.
 
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