The Triumph of Bidenomics!

[The Barbarian]

It starts to get absurd that you want to hold onto this old outdate, dirty technology. Why? Why do you want to die on the internal combustion engine hill? It's such a pointless one.

It's always like this. Old people still have landlines. But fewer and fewer of them.

 

[The Barbarian]

Remember the ice storms in Texas and no one had any power.

And I remember a hurricane in Texas, and no stations had any gas. Don't see a point.

 

[probinson]

I see a lot of Teslas out there.

I don't.

Currently, roughly 1 in 100 cars on the road in the US are EVs. Some fraction of that 1% of vehicles are Teslas. Not sure that a fraction of 1% can be classified as "a lot" by any objective standard.

 

[wing2000]

I don't.

Currently, roughly 1 in 100 cars on the road in the US are EVs. Some fraction of that 1% of vehicles are Teslas. Not sure that a fraction of 1% can be classified as "a lot" by any objective standard.

From what I observe in the Phoenix metro area, the number of Teslas I see in a given areas is directly related to the wealth of that area. Your average person simply can't afford them. That will change in the comming years as EV prices drop (mass production, competition, etc). Some analyst predict that by 2027, EV and gas powered vehicles will be equally priced.

 

[probinson]

Comes down to data.

Indeed. The data shows that Biden is currently +14.4 disapprove in polling.

And as you learned, the post-pandemic economy is doing better in the US than in the rest of the developed world. And as you suggest, people are starting to notice. According to your graph, only 45 percent think the economy is poor.

But 80% also say that they are experiencing moderate or severe financial hardships. That's not likely to subside by November.

If things continue, the economy will be a real problem for Trump.

Sure. If you say so.

From the poll I posted, Democrats are the only group increasing in their opinion that the economy is good. Until and unless they can convince people outside of the tribe that things are great, the economy may well be the reason Trump, one of the most horrible and awful candidates to grace US politics, beats Biden. And that scares the pants off of Democrats.

 

[probinson]

From what I observe in the Phoenix metro area, the number of Teslas I see in a given areas is directly related to the wealth of that area. Your average person simply can't afford them.

Exactly right. EVs are currently a class separator. That has to change for mass adoption.

That will change in the comming years as EV prices drop (mass production, competition, etc).

Except we know that EV demand is slowing.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/industry-pain-abounds-electric-car-demand-hits-slowdown-2024-01-30/

There are many hurdles that must be overcome. I have no doubt at some point they will, but not nearly as quickly as the government mandates would seem to indicate.

Some analyst predict that by 2027, EV and gas powered vehicles will be equally priced.

Since the analysts have been horribly wrong in their predictions concerning EVs thus far, I take their predictions with a huge grain of salt.

 

[probinson]

Honestly, I'm still waiting to hear about the "all kinds of hurdles" you mentioned before.

The main concerns people have with EVs are as follows:

• Cost. While this is narrowing, if you want an EV with comparable options to an ICE vehicle, you will likely spend 2x as much or more.
• Range. EVs simply cannot travel as far as their ICE equivalents on a single charge. 250-300 miles is typical. But on the open road, an ICE vehicle can travel 500+ miles before needing to stop for a fill-up.
• Range. Again. Yes, you can make the claim that EV costs are slowly coming more in-line with ICE vehicles, but only on the base, short-range models. Long-range models often cost many thousands more to gain more miles. The opposite is true for ICE vehicles. If you buy a smaller engine in a lower trim, you may actually get better gas mileage than if you opt for the bigger engine in more luxury trims.
• Charging time. It takes considerably longer to charge an EV than it does to fuel an ICE vehicle.
• Charing cost. As I showed in my EV6 example earlier, it can actually cost MORE to charge your EV on long road trips.
• Charging availability. This is becoming less of a problem, but the fact that there are apps available to help you pre-plan where you can stop to charge your EV on a road-trip is a pretty good indicator that EV charging is not nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations.
• Cold weather performance. It's s simple fact that batteries do not perform nearly as well in cold-weather conditions. Since this is your only source for powering your car, people in colder temperatures will experience excessively long charging times and reduced range.
• Convenience. If I am going somewhere and I forgot to fill-up in my ICE vehicle, I can stop at any gas station for 5-minutes to fuel up and go. In an EV if you didn't realize your charge was low, you might have to wait an hour or more, and that's only if you paid to have a fast-charger in your home. If you forgot to plug in and have to rely on your 110v outlet, I hope you can wait 40+ hours.

Read more issues here:

Why Americans don’t want electric vehicles

Home and public charging stations also place a significant strain on the electric grid, resulting in an average of $11,833 in socialized costs per vehicle over 10 years. Those costs are shouldered …

thehill.com

The issues are plenteous. They are real. And they all must be overcome to achieve a fully EV world.

The 5% I I did NOT include could EASILY be managed with planning and extra time. I know inconvinience is HARD for many Americans but you COULD do it.

Thanks for acknowledging that purchasing an EV will present "inconveniences" for people who purchase them. Now try to convince someone why they should spend twice as much for a vehicle that will present inconveniences to them.

 

[The Barbarian]

Not going to explain economics to you.

Given that you don't seem to know what "inflation" is, that's probably a good decision.

 

[The Barbarian]

Comes down to data. And as you learned, the post-pandemic economy is doing better in the US than in the rest of the developed world. And as you suggest, people are starting to notice. According to your graph, only 45 percent think the economy is poor. And that's what has Trump's people in a dither. If things continue, the economy will be a real problem for Trump.

Indeed. The data shows that Biden is currently +14.4 disapprove in polling.

I notice the same source has Trump at +11 disapprove. But that's not Trump's biggest problem. The reality is that the economy is doing well and people are starting to realize it. And as you learned, the post-pandemic economy is doing better in the US than in the rest of the developed world. And as you suggest, people are starting to notice. According to your graph, only 45 percent think the economy is poor.

But 80% also say that they are experiencing moderate or severe financial hardships. That's not likely to subside by November.

Sounds like a slender reed to grasp at, doesn't it?

From the poll I posted, Democrats are the only group increasing in their opinion that the economy is good.

Well, let's take a look at a recent poll...
Today’s poll puts that figure at 33%, and that nearly quadruple increase was seen among all voters, with some demographics showing bigger gains than others. Democrats who said we are experiencing an “economic recovery” rose from 20% in 2022 to 64% today. But the increase in sentiment even moved Republicans - from 1% to 8% today.

So, who else moved? And which groups are feeling the most optimistic?

The poll, which was fielded after Biden’s State of the Union address Thursday night, saw a sizeable jump among older voters ages 65+ describing the economy as being in recovery, moving from 11% in 2022 to a significant 42% today.
They have seen their costs dropping and their retirement accounts rising dramatically due to new stock market highs. According to the poll, former President Donald Trump still leads Biden by a single point 44%-43%, slightly less than the 52%-47% Trump advantage among those ages 65+ from the 2020 exit polls.

Among self-described moderates (some of whom are moderate Democrats and elderly) there was a sizeable jump as well, from 8% to 41%. Moderates are the entry point to the most crucial voting bloc in a general election – independents. And among independents, there was a 19-point increase from 7% to 26%.

MSN

www.msn.com

That's a huge swing to Biden, If Biden's economic policies continue to work, and the economy continues to grow, the poll numbers will continue to swing his way. And the indications are that they will.

 

[NxNW]

Democrats are a bit delusional when it comes to this. They prefer to blame the "far-right" media, in particular Fox News, when in reality, people are just looking at the world and circumstances around them.

"Look at my chart! Things are trending up!"

The economy is measured with charts and numbers, like GDP growth, unemployment, etc.

Meanwhile, the average family is still struggling to buy groceries.

An unsupported claim.

Reality has a way of rearing its ugly head. While there may be some encouraging economic indicators

Wait, now indicators are encouraging?

the fact is the majority of people are feeling the sting of increased prices. In fact from the Gallup poll I posted earlier, 80% of people say that they are experiencing either a moderate or severe financial hardship as a result of those increased prices.

You'll be pleased to hear that inflation is back in the 3% range.

"It's the economy, stupid!"

What about it?

 

[NxNW]

This is something about Democrats that drives me NUTS!

I hate that people use the health of the stock market as a sign a healthy economy.

That was Trump. Democrats understand the economy and stock market are two different things. Fortunately, both are in great shape.

With that said, there are a LOT of metrics that STILL suggest a very healthy economy.

Yep.

 

[NxNW]

There was an ice storm in Oregon. The electricity was off for 8 days or so.
Remember the ice storms in Texas and no one had any power.
My brother nearly froze in Oregon as he is rah rah all electric
His EV was useless but then he has a gas powered pickup and now a wood burning stove...just in case.
He is getting very bitter against EV's, electric heaters and cook stoves.
He has alternate systems for backup now. A propane camp stove, for instance.

This is the problem I have with my solar irrigation pump. I need water every day, all day long but I only get water when the sun shines.
It is not "on demand."

You might google up the term "battery".

 

[Valletta]

That was Trump. Democrats understand the economy and stock market are two different things. Fortunately, both are in great shape.

Yep.

The problem for Joe is that the people hear the rhetoric (border--safe, secure, closed) or hear the economy is in great shape, but they can see migrants have arrived in massive numbers and are being treated better than American citizens and many commit crimes, and the people experience for themselves the prices of rent and the prices of groceries and their checking accounts going toward zero.

 

[probinson]

The economy is measured with charts and numbers, like GDP growth, unemployment, etc.

Indeed. But let's not pretend that the average voter cares one iota about charts and numbers.

An unsupported claim.

I suppose you can pretend like elevated grocery prices aren't a hardship for many people. Not sure denying the problem exists is all that helpful though.

Survey: Over 92% of Americans Can’t Afford Groceries and 50% Report a Decline in Health | Fresh N Lean

The devastating consequences of more than 9 in 10 people struggling with prices of food cannot be overstated. This, according to the data, has consequences on the health of around 50% of the population which has declined in the last year.

www.freshnlean.com

That study was from 2022. Prices have risen even further since then.

The argument will be that this isn't attached to the economy. In fact, if you Google high grocery prices, indeed you'll find that there's nothing that the government can do about it. That's probably true. It's also irrelevant. As great as the economic recovery may or may not be, it won't move the needle at all if people continue to experience hardships buying groceries.

Wait, now indicators are encouraging?

I never said they weren't.

You'll be pleased to hear that inflation is back in the 3% range.

Great. That's one of those encouraging indicators.

Meanwhile, 80% of people polled said they were experiencing moderate to severe financial hardships.

 

[probinson]

MSN

www.msn.com

Thanks for the link. I think they hit the nail on the head in their final sentence.

"Perhaps the only way to reach these voters is at the grocery store or gas pump."​

 

[The Barbarian]

Thanks for the link. I think they hit the nail on the head in their final sentence.

"Perhaps the only way to reach these voters is at the grocery store or gas pump."

That's what has the republicans worried...

Inflation unchanged in January as food prices fall for first time since 2021​

Inflation unchanged in January as food prices fall for first time since 2021

The Office for National Statistics said inflation remained at 4% last month.

www.aol.com

Things are starting to close in on the GOP. This is why we see...

High-profile Republicans head for the exits amid House GOP dysfunction ​

House Republicans were shocked by some of the recent high-profile retirements announced by their colleagues, which have included powerful committee chairs and rising stars inside the GOP.
But given the miserable state of affairs inside the House right now, they also weren’t exactly surprised.

Loading…

www.cnn.com

They can't follow, and they can't govern. And as the economy improves, things are looking grim for a lot of republicans from swing districts.

 

[Valletta]

That's what has the republicans worried...

Inflation unchanged in January as food prices fall for first time since 2021​

Inflation unchanged in January as food prices fall for first time since 2021

The Office for National Statistics said inflation remained at 4% last month.

www.aol.com

View attachment 344469
Things are starting to close in on the GOP. This is why we see...

High-profile Republicans head for the exits amid House GOP dysfunction ​

House Republicans were shocked by some of the recent high-profile retirements announced by their colleagues, which have included powerful committee chairs and rising stars inside the GOP.
But given the miserable state of affairs inside the House right now, they also weren’t exactly surprised.

Loading…

www.cnn.com

They can't follow, and they can't govern. And as the economy improves, things are looking grim for a lot of republicans from swing districts.

More important is a corrupt government that has lied, lied about the border, actually secretly flying in hundreds of thousands, and used taxpayer money to pursue their political opponents. The wokeness is destroying our country and our economy, not just the crime and men in womens locker rooms, but things like forcing the country to use EVs is an economic and environmental disaster waiting to happen. You can show all the graphs you want, put people buy groceries and can see the prices for themselves. There are a lot of items which have doubled in price since Joe took over.

 

[The Barbarian]

More important is a corrupt government that has lied, lied about the border, actually secretly flying in hundreds of thousands, and used taxpayer money to pursue their political opponents.

Relax. He lost in 2020. And even his AG explained to Trump that he couldn't just order his opponents jailed.

 

[The Barbarian]

You can show all the graphs you want,

Yep. The far right looks on facts the way a vampire regards a crucifix.

BTW, when I was a senior in high school in the mid-60s, gasoline was about $0.33 a gallon. Now it's a bit more than ten times that. But 33 cents in 1965 is equivalent to about 3.25 today:

$0.33 in 1965 → 2024 | Inflation Calculator

The 3.95% inflation rate means $0.33 in 1965 is equivalent to $3.25 today. This inflation calculator uses the official US consumer price index published by the Department of Labor.

www.in2013dollars.com

Average price of gasoline today is $3,48.

Facts. And yes, not what you'd like it to be. But reality doesn't care what we think.

 

[SimplyMe]

Show me a country that plans to build 800 charging stations/day for the next nine years straight.

I'm really curious about that number. I'm guessing, since the government provides subsidies for individuals to put fast chargers in their homes, that it includes home chargers. As such, 800 per day starts becoming much more believable.

You must be new to government funding.



It is absolutely not a moot point, and your insistence that it is denies the reality of the situation.

Even if 95% of your driving is running around locally, many people can only afford one car. That one car has to meet ALL of their needs, even the 5% that you want to call a "moot point".

Whether you choose to believe it or not, range anxiety is a very real thing. My brother-in-law bought a Chevy Spark last year. He drove It from Chicago, IL to Greenville, SC. It added more than 6 HOURS of charging time to his trip in both directions. I am 100% unwilling to add 6 hours (or much more) to my long-distance travel, and I can promise you I am not alone.

Um... a Chevy Spark is a gas car. I'm going to assume you meant a Chevy Bolt, which is pretty much the slowest charging EV in the US. And, while 6 hours appears to be either an exaggeration or poor planning, looking at something like A Better Route Planner would indicate that trip should have taken just over 4 hours of charging in a Chevy Bolt. But, again, the Bolt is an outlier as it "fast" charges roughly 3 times slower than most other EVs sold in the US. As for home charging, it actually charges at a good rate.

When I drive to Florida, I have to stop to get gas 3 times. Each fill-up takes 2-3 minutes. For those of you keeping score at home, that's 9 minutes of fueling. That's the standard I'm looking for in a recharge. I might even be willing to go a bit longer than that, because while the actual fueling only takes 2-3 minutes, the stop is probably closer to 10-15 minutes with bathroom breaks, snack purchases, etc. But when I see charge times of 90-120 minutes to gain an extra 200-250 miles of range, that's an absolute non-starter for me.

You seem to do a great job of trying to minimize everything when it comes to your gas car and maximizing everything when it comes to an EV. Funny how, in another post, you talk about 5 minute refueling when you are at home but then talk about 2-3 minute refueling on a road trip. Of course, as you point out, you need to take bathroom breaks and likely get snacks (at a minimum) so that likely stretches out the stop to at least 20 minutes, and on a thousand mile trip I would think you stop to eat at least once -- and likely more than once, since we are talking about a full day of travel.

Now, to go back to your Greenville example (since you don't say where you are coming from or where in Florida you are going), for my EV6 we're talking about 4 stops taking 98 minutes (plus whatever extra slowdowns of eating, etc). Driving time, if you didn't have to stop, is around 10 hours, so you are talking about 10% longer compared to a gas car -- lower if you need to make extra stops for driver fatigue, bathroom breaks, and eating. Ten percent does not seem like a hugely different amount; particularly since the extra stops mean you'll have a more comfortable trip (less driver fatigue with the stops, not feeling as still and cramped from sitting in the car for hours at a time, etc). Basically, either way you are losing a full day to driving.

I'll address more of your objections in your next post on the topic.