Does the day of Christ resurrections tell us to change the worship of Sabbath?

daq

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I truly believe messianic and SDA readers of 2Cor 3:6-11 are in denial of what those verses are telling us.
It is with heavy heart when I read Messianic and SDA responses concerning what Paul so plainly wrote.

Paul is expounding from Exodus 34.
I have already offered a preliminary overview of my understanding.


No one responded so I left the thread where it stands as of now.
 
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Gary K

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Here are but a few translations that refute your theory of what the verse is telling us. Since none of the many translations agree with you I will have to believe that the 10 commandments are not our guide today and have not been since the new covenant was established at Calvary.

  1. ASV
    For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.
    AMP
    For if that [Law] which fades away came with glory, how much more must that [gospel] which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
    AMPC
    For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
    CEV
    The Law was given with a glory that faded away. But the glory of the new agreement is much greater, because it will never fade away.
    NLT
    So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
    NMB
    So then, if that which is destroyed was glorious, much more will that which remains be glorious.
    WEB
    For if that which passes away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

(used with he, she, it, and with singular nouns) a form of the present tense (indicative mood) of be

Sure "is" is present tense. "Is done away" means no longer with us now. I can't believe you are unable to see that those verses are telling us that Israelites are no longer under the rules of the 10 commandments or as it indicates the Law. Jesus command for us to love others as He loves us far surpasses any of the commands in the 10 that told the Israelites how to treat others. The stone tablets were given only to one nation, the remainder of the World's population were under the Noahide commands according to our Jewish friends. There were seven laws given to Noah and his posterity after the flood. See: https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...ish/The-7-Noahide-Laws-Universal-Morality.htm
Those are translations based on the Wescott and Hort Greek manuscripts. They are not reliable as Westcott and Hort were occultists and based their Greek manuscripts of the Siniaticus and Vaticanus manuscripts. They didn't believe in the divinity of Christ along with other heresies.


 
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HIM

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Here are but a few translations that refute your theory of what the verse is telling us. Since none of the many translations agree with you I will have to believe that the 10 commandments are not our guide today and have not been since the new covenant was established at Calvary.

  1. ASV
    For if that which passeth away was with glory, much more that which remaineth is in glory.
Passeth away is not passed away or done away as KJV puts forth. Which you used as your proof text.

2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


  1. AMP
    For if that [Law] which fades away came with glory, how much more must that [gospel] which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!
Fades away is not faded away or done away as the KJV puts forth.

  1. AMPC
    For if that which was but passing and fading away came with splendor, how much more must that which remains and is permanent abide in glory and splendor!

Passing and fading away is not done away as the KJV puts forth.

  1. CEV
    The Law was given with a glory that faded away. But the glory of the new agreement is much greater, because it will never fade away.
This is a paraphrase not a translation.
NLT
So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever!
Paraphrase
NMB
So then, if that which is destroyed was glorious, much more will that which remains be glorious.
Destroyed is not annulled. Something that is annulled remains but is rendered useless or idle.

WEB
For if that which passes away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.
Passes away is not passed away or done away as the KJV puts forth.

(used with he, she, it, and with singular nouns) a form of the present tense (indicative mood) of be
The word be is not in question. καταργέω which means annull is.

In 3 of the 4 instances in which being annulled is used it is a participle (Verses7, 11, and 13). Below is from the VERY link you provided. I am guessing you missed the last entry which has been highlighted in bold emphasis for you.. Verse 14 is in the present tense indicative mood. Which means it is a fact that the action of annulling is happening presently.


verb (used without object),present singular 1st person am,2nd are or (Archaic) art,3rd is,present plural are;past singular 1st person was,2nd were or (Archaic) wast or wert,3rd was,past plural were;present subjunctive be;past subjunctive singular 1st person were,2nd were or (Archaic) wert,3rd were; past subjunctive plural were; past participle been; present participle be·ing.
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words
Sure "is" is present tense. "Is done away" means no longer with us now. I can't believe you are unable to see that those verses are telling us that Israelites are no longer under the rules of the 10 commandments or as it indicates the Law. Jesus command for us to love others as He loves us far surpasses any of the commands in the 10 that told the Israelites how to treat others. The stone tablets were given only to one nation, the remainder of the World's population were under the Noahide commands according to our Jewish friends. There were seven laws given to Noah and his posterity after the flood. See: https://www.chabad.org/library/arti...ish/The-7-Noahide-Laws-Universal-Morality.htm
The Verb in the present tense. Being, not be. Being annulled or if you will, being done away with. Not annulled or done away. Basic grammar. Take care
 
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OldAbramBrown

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1 - We are not bound by ceremonial law, only moral law, and indwelling and re-infilling with Holy Spirit helps us fulfill that.
2 - Prior to 130 AD, some christians did synagogue member things with synagogue members one day, and all the christian believers did their thing the next day.
 
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Bob S

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Passeth away is not passed away or done away as KJV puts forth. Which you used as your proof text.

2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
You, in all of your explanations, are only concentrating on "passing". The remainder of the verse and verses tell the fact that the Holy Spirit has replaced the 10 commandments. It is the Holy Spirit that is within us that guides in righteousness. Looking at verse 7 we see that all the 10 commandments could do is condemn the Israelites.
 
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Bob S

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1 - We are not bound by ceremonial law, only moral law, and indwelling and re-infilling with Holy Spirit helps us fulfill that.
2 - Prior to 130 AD, some christians did synagogue member things with synagogue members one day, and all the christian believers did their thing the next day.
Is the Sabbath command in what is identified as being the "moral" law dealing with morality or is it dealing with rituality? The command to love is found in what is identified is being the remainder of the 613 commandments or "Ceremonial" law not binding because it is not found in the 10 commandments?` When and where did the "ceremonial" Laws get separated from the "moral" law in scripture?
 
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HIM

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1 - We are not bound by ceremonial law, only moral law, and indwelling and re-infilling with Holy Spirit helps us fulfill that.
2 - Prior to 130 AD, some christians did synagogue member things with synagogue members one day, and all the christian believers did their thing the next day.
And during Paul's time the mystery of Iniquity was already at work within the church. So any document is suspect outside of the Holy Writ or it would be included.
 
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HIM

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You, in all of your explanations, are only concentrating on "passing".

Because that was a root of your argument. From the beginning of our discourse, we have stated that there was no point in getting into context unless you see that verses 7, 11,13 and 14 are being stated in the present tense. That it is something being annulled not something annulled.
So now that you do see we can start getting into the context.
The remainder of the verse and verses tell the fact that the Holy Spirit has replaced the 10 commandments. It is the Holy Spirit that is within us that guides in righteousness. Looking at verse 7 we see that all the 10 commandments could do is condemn the Israelites.
Let's look.

But should we start in verse 7?
 
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Bob S

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Because that was a root of your argument. From the beginning of our discourse, we have stated that there was no point in getting into context unless you see that verses 7, 11,13 and 14 are being stated in the present tense. That it is something being annulled not something annulled.
So now that you do see we can start getting into the context.

Let's look.

But should we start in verse 7?
Yes, lets start at verse 7. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

What do you believe Paul was referring to as being transitory (temporary)?
 
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HIM

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Yes, lets start at verse 7. 7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,

What do you believe Paul was referring to as being transitory (temporary)?
Starting in verse 7 is ill-advised.
However, being annulled is an action. Transitory is a state of being. That is a bad translation. Though that glory was temporary the NIV missed the mark here.

Translators should never paraphrase, put what they think or feel a text is stating. If they do they should have a footnote stating so. Many a believer have and are led astray because of this habit most translation do.

So to answer your question nothing is being stated transitory. The verse says that the Glory of His face is that which is being annulled, made ineffective, fadeth. His face continue to shine from the glory of being in the presence of God. Please take a look at Exodus. It was The ministry that involved being in God's presence that caused Moses face to shine. God's glory is contagious, spreads to those that are His ministers that minister from Him directly basking in His glory. Hence why it says in 2Cor 3:8, "how much more glorious will the ministry of the Spirit be?"



Exod 34:29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face shone while he talked with him.
Exod 34:30 And when Aaron and all the children of Israel saw Moses, behold, the skin of his face shone; and they were afraid to come nigh him.
Exod 34:31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation returned unto him: and Moses talked with them.
Exod 34:32 And afterward all the children of Israel came nigh: and he gave them in commandment all that the LORD had spoken with him in mount Sinai.
Exod 34:33 And till Moses had done speaking with them, he put a vail on his face.
Exod 34:34 But when Moses went in before the LORD to speak with him, he took the vail off, until he came out. And he came out, and spake unto the children of Israel that which he was commanded.
Exod 34:35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses' face shone: and Moses put the vail upon his face again, until he went in to speak with him.
 
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Starting in verse 7 is ill-advised.
However, being annulled is an action. Transitory is a state of being. That is a bad translation. Though that glory was temporary the NIV missed the mark here.

Translators should never paraphrase, put what they think or feel a text is stating. If they do they should have a footnote stating so. Many a believer have and are led astray because of this habit most translation do.

So to answer your question nothing is being stated transitory. The verse says that the Glory of His face is that which is being annulled, made ineffective, fadeth. His face continue to shine from the glory of being in the presence of God. Please take a look at Exodus. It was The ministry that involved being in God's presence that caused Moses face to shine. God's glory is contagious, spreads to those that are His ministers that minister from Him directly basking in His glory. Hence why it says in 2Cor 3:8, "how much more glorious will the ministry of the Spirit be?"
I thought you would relate transitory to Moses' head. The subject in verse 7 is "the ministry of death" Paul in that verse and succeeding verses is explaining that the ministry of death WAS annulled.

Now to your feeling the need to belittle all my posts and try to bolster your acclaimed superior knowledge of all subjects. I am fully aware of your wrongful debating tactic and ask that you tone it down to just meaningful debate. Your opinion of the translation I am using is just that, an opinion. I have not belittled your translation of scripture and I would rather you would not belittle mine.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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When and where did the "ceremonial" Laws get separated from the "moral" law in scripture?
Not following your earlier syntax but addressing your last sentence:

The OT continually says God didn't attach moral importance to meat and grain sacrificing. People who came unstuck all had a moral problem. The ceremonies were intended as mnemonics for the transmitters of the repository of Scriptures looking forward to Ascension. Jesus became faintly sarcastic about dill sacrificing.

The 10 "Commndments" (which are in the future, prophetic tense looking forward not only to Ascension but to the many believers prior) are expressions of principle to be interpreted, not only ceremonially.
 
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OldAbramBrown

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Passeth away is not passed away or done away as KJV puts forth. Which you used as your proof text.

2Cor 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

...

Destroyed is not annulled. Something that is annulled remains but is rendered useless or idle.

Passes away is not passed away or done away as the KJV puts forth.

The word be is not in question. καταργέω which means annull is.

In 3 of the 4 instances in which being annulled is used it is a participle (Verses7, 11, and 13). Below is from the VERY link you provided. I am guessing you missed the last entry which has been highlighted in bold emphasis for you.. Verse 14 is in the present tense indicative mood. Which means it is a fact that the action of annulling is happening presently.

verb (used without object),present singular 1st person am,2nd are or (Archaic) art,3rd is,present plural are;past singular 1st person was,2nd were or (Archaic) wast or wert,3rd was,past plural were;present subjunctive be;past subjunctive singular 1st person were,2nd were or (Archaic) wert,3rd were; past subjunctive plural were; past participle been; present participle be·ing.
Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words

The Verb in the present tense. Being, not be. Being annulled or if you will, being done away with. Not annulled or done away. Basic grammar. Take care
St Paul uses the present tense of general theory, and also any nominally overarching statements don't deny that there were believers in heart.
 
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rstrats

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We are not to forsake assembling together, and the early church did that on Sunday, the Lord's (Jesus Christ) day.
Actually, as has been touched on, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a worship service or day of rest. And it couldn't have been in recognition of the resurrection because at that time they didn't even believe that the resurrection had taken place.

And the Acts reference might very well have had them getting together to break bread with Paul because he happened to be in town and wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The "breaking of bread" can simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated.

But even if the breaking of bread mentioned always did refer to the Lord’s Supper, it had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.

In neither verse is anything said about worship, or for that matter about honoring the resurrection.
 
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daq

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Actually, as has been touched on, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a worship service or day of rest. And it couldn't have been in recognition of the resurrection because at that time they didn't even believe that the resurrection had taken place.

And the Acts reference might very well have had them getting together to break bread with Paul because he happened to be in town and wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The "breaking of bread" can simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated.

But even if the breaking of bread mentioned always did refer to the Lord’s Supper, it had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.

In neither verse is anything said about worship, or for that matter about honoring the resurrection.

Some say that the end of Mark, (from verse nine to the end), is not original, however, at least verse nine in my estimation appears to be legitimate, (which speaks toward my view that the rest of what is there as likely also original). In Mark 16:9 we read a curious statement not found anywhere else:

Mark 16:9 T/R
9 αναστας δε πρωι πρωτη σαββατου εφανη πρωτον μαρια τη μαγδαληνη αφ ης εκβεβληκει επτα δαιμονια

There is absolutely no justification anywhere in the scripture to render πρωτη σαββατου as the first [day] of the week because the word for the Shabbat here is in a singular form. The excuse for such a rendering everywhere else is that we read σαββατων, the genitive neuter plural form. However this interpretation, (and it surely is that), completely ignores the fact that everywhere in the LXX-Septuagint version of the Torah, in what is clearly speaking of the weekly day of the Shabbat, the Septuagint renders the word Shabbat in a plural Greek form, and the most common form is σαββατων.

Moreover the most enlightening part of the Mark 16:9 statement is the word prote, (πρωτη), because it is found in the Septuagint version of Lev 23:11, which surely speaks of the Shabbat: for not only is it the word Shabbat in the Hebrew text, in this place, but the Septuagint translators make it known that they understand this in what follows down the passage in Lev 23:15, where the count is commanded to be commenced for the feast of Weeks and Pentecost.

Leviticus 23:11 OG LXX
11 και ανοισει το δραγμα εναντι κυριου δεκτον υμιν τη επαυριον της πρωτης ανοισει αυτο ο ιερευς
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD to be accepted of you: the morrow of the Protes the priest shall wave it

In this text the Protes replaces the word Shabbat found in the Hebrew text, but as stated above, the following shows that they understood and saw that word Shabbat in the Hebrew text and rendered it as such in verse fifteen, showing that they were not intending to change the meaning of the text but rather to explain it.

Leviticus 3:15 OG LXX
15 και αριθμησετε υμεις απο της επαυριον των σαββατων απο της ημερας ης αν προσενεγκητε το δραγμα του επιθεματος επτα εβδομαδας ολοκληρους

Leviticus 3:15 Brenton Septuagint
15 And ye shall number to yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day on which ye shall offer the sheaf of the heave-offering, seven full weeks:

This text speaks of the very same day as verse eleven: the morrow of the protes, and the morrow of the Shabbat are the same day in the context, and yet here they render σαββατων instead of πρωτης, surely knowing what they are doing.

However, as usual, the singular form Shabbat from the Hebrew text is rendered in the plural in the LXX, and by the context it is clearly speaking of verse eleven, and the plural form is the most common genitive neuter plural form also found in all places in the N/T where we see in translations the rendering "the first day of the week", (except for the Mark 16:9 passage quoted above containing the singular form σαββατου).

The translators are straight up wrong for ignoring the most commonly quoted source in the Gospel accounts, and the writings of the Apostles, which is the LXX-Septuagint. The day is divided into two parts and the first portion of the Shabbat, the evening before and night before, is the "first-light" of the Shabbat, the Protos, (protes is just a feminine form). The morrow is the next morning and second portion of the weekly Shabbat.
 
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I thought you would relate transitory to Moses' head. The subject in verse 7 is "the ministry of death" Paul in that verse and succeeding verses is explaining that the ministry of death WAS annulled.

Being annulled is not annulled. This was already shown to you. There is no arguing it. And this that you say is not supported in the text.

The Greek text literally says " the glory of his face which is being annulled." (see below) The Ministry changed. That which was on the outside being ink on parchment and letters engraved on stone ministered by man is now on the inside through God's Spirit. For God said, He will give us a new Spirit that causes us to keep His statutes and walk in His judgements. In this His law is in our hearts and minds. His Word, His commandments and statutes contained in the Book of the Law are in our hearts and mouths that we do it. That is the faith in which we preach. (Ezek. 36:26,27; Deut. 30:10-14; Rom 10:6-8)


2Cor 3:7 Εἰ δὲ But If
ἡ The
διακονία Ministry
τοῦ θανάτου Of the Death ἐν In
γράμμασιν Letters,
ἐντετυπωμένη Having Been Engraven
ἐν In
λίθοις Stones,
ἐγενήθη Was Produced ἐν in
δόξῃ Glory,
ὥστε So As
μὴ δύνασθαι Not To Be Able To
ἀτενίσαι Look Intently
τοὺς The
υἱοὺς Children
Ἰσραὴλ Of Israel
εἰς Into
τὸ The
πρόσωπον Face
Μωσέως Of Moses,
διὰ On Account Of
τὴν The
δόξαν Glory
τοῦ προσώπου αὐτοῦ Of His Face,
τὴν Which
καταργουμένην Is Being Annulled;


Now to your feeling the need to belittle all my posts and try to bolster your acclaimed superior knowledge of all subjects. I am fully aware of your wrongful debating tactic and ask that you tone it down to just meaningful debate. Your opinion of the translation I am using is just that, an opinion. I have not belittled your translation of scripture and I would rather you would not belittle mine.
Showing why someone's post is wrong is not a wrongful debating tactic. It is how it is done. If one just posts one's opinion without showing the actually errors to the post to which is being responded to that would be wrong.
 
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HIM

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St Paul uses the present tense of general theory, and also any nominally overarching statements don't deny that there were believers in heart.
Having trouble understanding how your post relates to the post you have responded too. Take care.
 
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Clare73

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Actually, as has been touched on, as far as scripture is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a worship service or day of rest. And it couldn't have been in recognition of the resurrection because at that time they didn't even believe that the resurrection had taken place.

And the Acts reference might very well have had them getting together to break bread with Paul because he happened to be in town and wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The "breaking of bread" can simply be saying that the disciples got together to eat a meal on this particular first day of the week . The phrase, "to break bread", does not have to refer to a religious service - unless it is specifically stated.

But even if the breaking of bread mentioned always did refer to the Lord’s Supper, it had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day.

In neither verse is anything said about worship, or for that matter about honoring the resurrection.
The law is summed up in one rule: He who loves has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8-10).

Jesus is our Sabbath rest now (Heb 3:7-4:11).
 
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Having trouble understanding how your post relates to the post you have responded too. Take care.
because you quoted St Paul's usage of the present tense, which coming from him (and many others) doesn't only have one usage. Take care.
 
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Gary K

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The law is summed up in one rule: He who loves has fulfilled the law (Ro 13:8-10).

Jesus is our Sabbath rest now (Heb 3:7-4:11).
Jesus told us that to love God with all our hearts, soul and might is the fulfillment of the law. How do we love God with everything within us and ignore the very commandment He tells us to remember and that lies at the very middle of the10 commandments?

Matthew 22: 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

I've seen you quote loving your neighbor as yourself as the fulfillment of the law, but never verse 37. I wonder why that is.... To me it makes a mockery of saying we love God with everything within us by worshiping on a day he told us to spend working and ignoring the day He told us to keep holy.
 
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