Should we be vegan?

trophy33 · Nov 29, 2023

Public Health Collaboration hosted Dr. Zoe Harcombe PhD, who was a vegan/vegetarian for 20 years, to talk about this topic.

The content of the video:

1. What is veganism
2. If science supports that its a better nutrition - no.
3. The Game changers Netflix documentary review
4. Is veganism better for animals - no.
5. Is veganism better for our planet - no.
6. Who is behind veganism.

honey badger · Nov 29, 2023

was Jesus vegan ?

timewerx · Nov 29, 2023

If we look at the morals / ethics of the situation, indulging on food is bad whether you're vegan or not.

What would Jesus do? Don't indulge, deny yourself.

I would advice treating these topics with grain of salt. Lots of misleading/biased info regarding these topics from both vegan and carnivore camp.

trophy33 · Nov 30, 2023

timewerx said:
I would advice treating these topics with grain of salt. Lots of misleading/biased info regarding these topics from both vegan and carnivore camp.

She is not a carnivore.

FireDragon76 · Nov 30, 2023

This sounds more like a mocumentary than a serious discussion of the merits or demerits of a vegetarian diet.

I've eaten a vegetarian or vegan diet most of my life. My health only started heading south in my 30's after I started eating meat.

The stuff in the video about male members is, to put it discretely, credible, as ridiculous as it may seem at first glance. A diet full of saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't do anything good there, that's for sure.

The greatest unexpected benefit for me is the amount of time a meatless diet saves in the kitchen. I don't have to spend alot of time preparing bits of dead animal in my kitchen to make sure everything is microbially safe, or spend lots of time trying to get off all the grease and oil off pots and pans.

trophy33 · Nov 30, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
This sounds more like a mocumentary than a serious discussion of the merits or demerits of a vegetarian diet.

I've eaten a vegetarian or vegan diet most of my life. My health only started heading south in my 30's after I started eating meat.

The stuff in the video about male members is, to put it discretely, credible, as ridiculous as it may seem at first glance. A diet full of saturated fat and cholesterol doesn't do anything good there, that's for sure.

Most of my life I've been vegetarian or vegan. When I started eating meat in my 30's, my health started heading south.

The greatest unexpected benefit for me is the amount of time a meatless diet saves in the kitchen.

The presentation is about:

1. What is veganism
2. If science supports that its a better nutrition - no.
3. The Game changers Netflix documentary review
4. Is veganism better for animals - no.
5. Is veganism better for our planet - no.
6. Who is behind veganism.

I will add this to the OP, too. Yes, some of the odd/naive pro-vegan arguments were ridiculed a bit. It is not something I like or something important for the presentation, though.

timewerx · Nov 30, 2023

myst33 said:
4. Is veganism better for animals - no.
5. Is veganism better for our planet - no.

I don't deny that commercial activities are often bad to the environment including agriculture.

But the meat industry also requires agriculture for the grains used in livestock feed. Even grass-fed cattle require large grazing lands which makes the meat industry a substantial factor in deforestation.

It takes lots of energy, lots of resources to raise lots of livestock for food. It begs the question of how much energy and resources we could have saved if we eliminate the "middleman" (meat) and just ate plant foods directly?

I'm not picking sides. I still eat meat and recognize the importance of "protein-complete" foods like meat and I love animal-based milk (dairy). I simply like to point out the obvious that apart from seafood, most of meat sources are herbivores and also depend on agriculture for feeds or require vast amounts of deforestation, not only for grazing lands but also to house the animals and all infrastructure involve.

So how is the meat industry any better than the agricultural industry and from the looks of it, it might even be worse.

I would think from the ethical point of view, the best course action is to do what Jesus said - deny yourself which obvious includes NOT indulging on food. Eat to live not "live to eat".

Lost4words · Nov 30, 2023

myst33 said:
Public Health Collaboration hosted Dr. Zoe Harcombe PhD, who was a vegan/vegetarian for 20 years, to talk about this topic.

The content of the video:

1. What is veganism
2. If science supports that its a better nutrition - no.
3. The Game changers Netflix documentary review
4. Is veganism better for animals - no.
5. Is veganism better for our planet - no.
6. Who is behind veganism.

Can you get vegan marrow bones?

ozso · Nov 30, 2023

honey badger said:
was Jesus vegan ?

No. He ate fish and honey. Luke 24:42-43

trophy33 · Nov 30, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I've eaten a vegetarian or vegan diet most of my life. My health only started heading south in my 30's after I started eating meat.

Because meat as such does not contain any allergens, poisons or chemicals foreign to our own bodies, its hard to think of any mechanism how it would damage your health. Its like saying water damages your health.

There will be probably something else going on.

FireDragon76 · Nov 30, 2023

myst33 said:
Because meat as such does not contain any allergens, poisons or chemicals foreign to our own bodies, its hard to think of any mechanism how it would damage your health. Its like saying water damages your health.

There will be probably something else going on.

Plants that humans traditionally consume contain various chemicals, most of which are benign, many are beneficial, and the ones that are problematic are typically removed through cooking or other processes. In fact, the majority of the world's plants aren't toxic to humans and are edible. True poisonous plants are a small minority.

There are plenty of potential toxins in meat and dairy products such as advanced glycation end-products (which are pro-inflammatory) and bacterial endotoxins. Meat and eggs can also contain pathogenic bacteria. In a country like the US, this isn't rare at all. Every year over a hundred thousands people are made ill in the US and go to hospitals because of pathogenic bacteria in meat and eggs, several thousand die.

Meat, dairy, and fish in the US also contain alot of pesticide residues and flourinated chemicals (so-called "forever chemicals"). These chemicals can bioaccumulate in tissues and milk. These flourinated compounds and pesticides can act as endoctrine disruptors, causing suppression of the immune system, thyroid, and reproductive system.

trophy33 · Dec 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Plants that humans traditionally consume contain various chemicals, most of which are benign, many are beneficial, and the ones that are problematic are typically removed through cooking or other processes. In fact, the majority of the world's plants aren't toxic to humans and are edible. True poisonous plants are a small minority.

There are plenty of potential toxins in meat and dairy products such as advanced glycation end-products (which are pro-inflammatory) and bacterial endotoxins. Meat and eggs can also contain pathogenic bacteria. In a country like the US, this isn't rare at all. Every year over a hundred thousands people are made ill in the US and go to hospitals because of pathogenic bacteria in meat and eggs, several thousand die.

Meat, dairy, and fish in the US also contain alot of pesticide residues and flourinated chemicals (so-called "forever chemicals"). These chemicals can bioaccumulate in tissues and milk. These flourinated compounds and pesticides can act as endoctrine disruptors, causing suppression of the immune system, thyroid, and reproductive system.

So, you are not saying that meat is the case, but rather some bacterial infection from insufficient processing of the meat?

Anyway, It would surprise me if pesticides were more present in meat/dairy than in plants, in the USA. Its hard to imagine how would that be possible.

Also, I do not know how much of harmful chemicals in plants are destroyed by cooking, however, most of veggies, fruit or nuts are consumed raw and cooking/processing of grains does not seem to solve the health issue people have with them.

FireDragon76 · Dec 1, 2023

myst33 said:
So, you are not saying that meat is the case, but rather some bacterial infection from insufficient processing of the meat?

Anyway, It would surprise me if pesticides were more present in meat/dairy than in plants, in the USA. Its hard to imagine how would that be possible.

Many pesticides can last for months or years before they degrade. Since cows and pigs are at a higher trophic level and are fed large amounts of grains containing pesticide residues, toxins bioaccumulate in their bodies.

trophy33 · Dec 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Many pesticides can last for months or years before they degrade. Since cows and pigs are at a higher trophic level and are fed large amounts of grains containing pesticide residues, toxins bioaccumulate in their bodies.

I am not sure what is your source that meat contains any significant amount of pesticides and why do you think its a bigger problem than eating plants yourself.

I can literally feel the chemicals on many non-bio plants - like a burning in my mouth. Even after a proper washing with water. Thats why I stopped eating many of them. Never happened with meat or dairy. Rarely with bio plants, but still sometimes happened.

trophy33 · Dec 1, 2023

Regarding pesticides on plants:

A third of apples and half of all blackberries surveyed had residues of the most toxic categories of pesticides, some of which have been linked to illnesses including cancer, heart disease and birth deformities.

In all, the analysis of nearly 100,000 popular homegrown fruit samples in Europe found a 53% rise in contamination by the most hazardous pesticides, over nine years. The study was conducted by Pesticide Action Network (PAN) Europe.

Close to a third of all fruits sampled were tainted by hazardous substances in 2019, the last year for which data was available to researchers.

The most contaminated fruits sampled were blackberries (51%), peaches (45%), strawberries (38%), cherries (35%) and apricots (35%).

For vegetables, celery (50%), celeriac (45%) and kale (31%) were the most contaminated products.

PAN Europe spokeswoman Salomé Roynel said: “Consumers are now in an awful position, told to eat fresh fruit, much of which is contaminated with the most toxic pesticide residues linked to serious health impacts. It is clear to us that governments have no intention of banning these pesticides, whatever the law says. They are too afraid of the farming lobby, which depends on powerful chemicals and a broken agricultural model.

European fruit with traces of most toxic pesticides ‘up 53% in nine years’

Analysis of nearly 100,000 samples found residues in a third of apples and half of blackberries

www.theguardian.com

I have not found any similar report about meat/dairy.

Serendipitous Waffle · Dec 1, 2023

I went 100% vegan for six months, I felt great honestly. However it was only roughly six months. I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy myself. As for political veganism, I think that's nonsense, but if people want to eat vegan only, the more power to them. I won't delve into pros and cons of either as I'm no dietician and am only sharing my personal experience.

FireDragon76 · Dec 1, 2023

myst33 said:
I am not sure what is your source that meat contains any significant amount of pesticides and why do you think its a bigger problem than eating plants yourself.

Bioaccumulation. If I eat the plants directly, I'm not at a higher trophic level than the animal I would have consumed to get the same nutrition.

trophy33 · Dec 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Bioaccumulation. If I eat the plants directly, I'm not at a higher trophic level than the animal I would have consumed to get the same nutrition.

Well, again, I do not know what is your source that there is more pesticides in animal products, than in plants on which pesticides are used directly, in high amount and found regularly.

I have not found any such reports comparable to plants testing.

In any case, I would strongly recommend buying only bio products, if one can.

FireDragon76 · Dec 1, 2023

myst33 said:
Well, again, I do not know what is your source that there is more pesticides in animal products, than in plants on which pesticides are used directly, in high amount and found regularly.

I have not found any such reports comparable to plants testing.

In the US, the amount of glyphosate in red meat can be up to 20 times higher than the glyphosate levels in crops:

https://medium.com/center-for-biological-diversity/does-meat-contain-pesticides-c587f6b252e7

trophy33 · Dec 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
In the US, the amount of glyphosate in red meat can be up to 20 times higher than the glyphosate levels in crops:

https://medium.com/center-for-biological-diversity/does-meat-contain-pesticides-c587f6b252e7

There is no link to actual tests in your article, it only talks about allowed limits in the USA.

Also, the author of the article seems to be mistaken, I have not found his claim in the source he linked. In cattle, the allowed limit is 5, in poultry 0.1, in eggs 0.05, in sheep 5. It compares to limits allowed for carrots. However, for grain its 100, for oilseeds 40, for sugarcane 30, for example.
This is his source: Federal Register :: Request Access

In any case, after my personal experience, I would strongly recommend buying bio products, only.

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