Assisted Suicide

partinobodycular · Nov 20, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
Where in the Bible, even one line, is there a hint of approval?

King Saul committed suicide. Nowhere in the bible do I see him being chastised for it in any way whatsoever.

partinobodycular · Nov 20, 2023

R.Weeks79 said:
Well I have a living will and if I get cancer or something I can think of several painless way to go that I would use.

I've always thought that 'Death by Hibachi' would be a fairly peaceful way to go.

chevyontheriver · Nov 20, 2023

partinobodycular said:
King Saul committed suicide. Nowhere in the bible do I see him being chastised for it in any way whatsoever.

OK then. There you go. Suicide is moral! Proof positive. :scratch:

partinobodycular · Nov 20, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
OK then. There you go. Suicide is moral! Proof positive.

Hey, you asked for it, I gave it to you. It's not my fault if you don't like it.

RDKirk · Nov 21, 2023

partinobodycular said:
King Saul committed suicide. Nowhere in the bible do I see him being chastised for it in any way whatsoever.

King Saul was considered broadly in moral turpitude, so the fact that one particular thing was not specified is not any indication that particular act was moral.

Edit: It more points to a presumption that everything he did was immoral.

QueenOfTheUnknown · Nov 21, 2023

I can see how some may see it as muder but if the person is so sick that they can't do simple things but understand that what is happening I feel it's okay. And if they have it in their living will, they HAVE to do it. Right?

QueenOfTheUnknown · Nov 21, 2023

QueenOfTheUnknown said:
I can see how some may see it as muder but if the person is so sick that they can't do simple things but understand that what is happening I feel it's okay. And if they have it in their living will, they HAVE to do it. Right?

*murder

partinobodycular · Nov 21, 2023

RDKirk said:
King Saul was considered broadly in moral turpitude, so the fact that one particular thing was not specified is any indication that particular act was moral.

It wasn't my intent to interpret the morality of Saul's actions, I'm not at all qualified. I was simply pointing out the bible's silence on the matter. Its morality is for someone else to decide, they always do.

Reluctant Theologian · Nov 21, 2023

RDKirk said:
I object to the conflation of assisted suicide with "euthanasia." That can have pernicious consequences. "Euthanasia" is when someone else decides your life is not worth living and kills you, with or without your consent...it is not the same thing as "assisted suicide." We euthanize animals.

But if the laws are written to conflate the two, we wind up with laws permitting something people didn't intend.

Oh certainly that is a good suggestion; clear terminology where of course it's essential to be able to make the distinction between deciding about your own life or deciding about someone else's life ... ! Please read 'assisted suicide' in all places where I used the term 'euthanasia'.

zippy2006 · Nov 22, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I guess if there is no line in the Bible against it you will just have to try it and see what happens. Do a little experiment. But if you are wrong, and one of the ten commandments, the one against murder, applies to murdering yourself after all, then it's a bit late to reverse the experiment.

Of course this actually is in the Bible. Biblically, the blood is seen as the seat of life, and it belongs to God and God alone. This is why, for example, Hebrews are not permitted to consume blood (e.g. Leviticus 17), and why the blood was so important in the sacrificial offerings. It is also why it is Abel's blood that "cries out to God from the ground." So in the Biblical sense it is precisely the spilling of human blood that is prohibited, and all exceptions are explicit (e.g. Genesis 9:6). It doesn't matter whether the blood one is spilling is their own or someone else's. Either way it belongs to God, and it is not permitted.

(As for the claim in post #21 that Saul's suicide reflects no judgment by the Biblical author, this is just an ignorant reading of the text and a failure to understand Hebrew literature.)

partinobodycular · Nov 22, 2023

zippy2006 said:
(As for the claim in post #21 that Saul's suicide reflects no judgment by the Biblical author, this is just an ignorant reading of the text and a failure to understand Hebrew literature.)

The fact still remains, Saul committed suicide, and neither he nor anyone else seems to have given it a second thought. But what's really, really strange is that his armor-bearer steadfastly refused to kill Saul, but had absolutely no qualms about killing himself. Which would seem to indicate that he understood that there was a very clear difference between the two acts... one was permissible, the other one wasn't.

But I'm probably just too ignorant to be able to understand the 'mysterious' inner meanings of the bible, available only to enlightened people such as yourself. So please forgive my ignorance.

partinobodycular · Nov 22, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
I guess if there is no line in the Bible against it you will just have to try it and see what happens.

When the time comes I have every intention of doing just that. Then again I'm a stubborn old cuss, to paraphrase a popular NRA adage, "you can have my life when you pry it from my cold, dead hands". So who knows, what will be, will be... but I'm pretty sure that God isn't going to have a problem with how I happen to come to die. Me and J.C. ... we be cool.

chevyontheriver · Nov 22, 2023

partinobodycular said:
Me and J.C. ... we be cool.

You pay your money and you take your chances.

partinobodycular · Nov 22, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
You pay your money and you take your chances.

Kinda like life... pay your money and take your chances. I came into this life not knowing what was going to happen, and I'll gladly go into the next one the same way. As I said... what will be, will be. If I'm there... awesome, if I'm not... it probably won't bother me much.

Reluctant Theologian · Nov 23, 2023

zippy2006 said:
Of course this actually is in the Bible. Biblically, the blood is seen as the seat of life, and it belongs to God and God alone. This is why, for example, Hebrews are not permitted to consume blood (e.g. Leviticus 17), and why the blood was so important in the sacrificial offerings. It is also why it is Abel's blood that "cries out to God from the ground." So in the Biblical sense it is precisely the spilling of human blood that is prohibited, and all exceptions are explicit (e.g. Genesis 9:6). It doesn't matter whether the blood one is spilling is their own or someone else's. Either way it belongs to God, and it is not permitted.

(As for the claim in post #21 that Saul's suicide reflects no judgment by the Biblical author, this is just an ignorant reading of the text and a failure to understand Hebrew literature.)

That's not the whole story and cannot be applied literally in all cases IMHO - example:

Suppose you are captured by ISIS/HAMAS and they obviously prepare to burn you alive or kill you after being raped (so you're facing a horrible death anyway for certain) - in that case I would argue putting a bullet in your head just before the atrocities take place is not sinning given the circumstances.

Whyayeman · Nov 23, 2023

There is a distinction to be made between 'suicide' and 'assisted suicide'. The laws allowing a person to 'help' in suicide (in countries where they exist) generally assume that the person asking to die is incapable of performing the deed himself or herself. Such laws are designed for victims of paralysing diseases or accidents.

There is another distinction to be made between 'moral' and 'legal'. Morality is a private matter. The law is a public concern. Many sins are legal. The law permits suicide in many countries. Many religions regard it as a sin.

returntosender · Nov 23, 2023

Tinker Grey said:
I give myself the right to decide. No one can take it from me.

It is my life after all.

It's not your decision if it's illegal.. i think it should be legal in the U S. Some one here in cf said you can't lose your salvation if you do it. I agree with that. I know you didn't ask that part, i just threw that in for others.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 23, 2023

R.Weeks79 said:
This is a very iffy topic. If your terminal meaning you are gonna die and your in pain and want it to in I fully understand and accept that. I also see the danger in it. I think it would have to be a case by case deal and It would need signed of by at least doctors to avoid abuse of the service. Now for the religious issue, I have never read a line in the bible that says suicide means you go to hell...if its there show me. If your terminal your already dead...its just a matter of how much your gonna suffer before you die. I do not believe god would want anyone who is dying to suffer unnecessarily.

On this issue of medical ethics, I'd think some of the central arguments hinge upon the exacting definition of "terminal" and its contraposition to the fact that "suicide" has historically been applied to those instances of self-inflicted death where that person was NOT terminal. So, when we then bring in the additional qualifier "assisted," I'm kind of thinking that most of us recognize that its relation conceptually is to the qualifier "terminal," as an antidote to prolonged suffering rather than merely being loosely thrown toward the term "suicide."

But, that's about as far on this issue as I will speak. It is, as you've said, "iffy." I think there's a lot of disambiguation of terms and qualifiers that needs to be applied on this one.

returntosender · Nov 30, 2023

chevyontheriver said:
As I would expect from an atheist.

Where does free will come into this subject? Sounds like free will is limited.

RDKirk · Nov 30, 2023

returntosender said:
Where does free will come into this subject? Sounds like free will is limited.

"Free" is an absolute adjective. If it's limited, it's not "free."

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