Would you marry a woman who was a former stripper or X-rated star if she turned into a Christian ?

Divide said:

One time I was in discussion about marriage to a female and I brought up Proverbs 31 into the conversation. She knee jerked and said I aint never going to be a wife like that! I didnt marry her. Even if she felt unworthy to be able to acheive being a Proverbs 31 wife, that wasnt what she meant. She meant she will not do it, or try. Too much entitlement, too much self pride. In an instant she took the converation from an "us" thing to a "her" thing. Red flag red flag, run!

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You had the wisdom to look for those red flags (which I just called "warnings" in #219). One must know how to evaluate, and I found it best to not waste a lot of time doing so. As I said, I found that those warnings/red flags get raised pretty quickly in most instances.

I wasn't thinking about Prov31 until I read your post. It reminded me that Prov31:10 questions, Who can find a "gunaika (woman, wife) andreian" (chose your favorite English translation). I saw this in the LXX sometime after I married "Andrea". Close enough.

Divide said:

Doesn't anyone realize that God gave mankind marriage as a shadow of His own relationship with us?

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And you're putting that forward as an argument as to why someone who repents and turns to God is not acceptable?

Divide said:

The bride has made herself ready is what scripture says. It doesnt say that the bride is allowed to sacrifice to other gods and somehow dodge the responsibility of fidelity within the heart because she says she is offended because she reaps consequences for her own irresponsibility.

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Which would be why none of this conversation has been about people who have not repented or changed their ways. But about people who have indeed done the hard work of making themselves ready.

As for Proverbs 31, there's been so much manipulative and unhelpful bunk written about that passage, I'd ask someone what they understood by it before judging their reaction!

Paidiske said:

As for Proverbs 31, there's been so much manipulative and unhelpful bunk written about that passage, I'd ask someone what they understood by it before judging their reaction!

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Care to explain it? Sounds to me like she should do all the work while I sit at the gates with the men and consider God and what His will is for our community

mikeforjesus said:

I think you are right confused by Christianity which actually is what I also believed which I did not know I was being hypocrite to change my mind by others persuasion though I know it carries risk if one cheats one but is right not to judge past if person you can see is living right now but should test it safe if person has diseases can transmit. What I like this song which shows the importance not to judge any for marriage if they do not carry risk to harm you and if not to welcome to church.

m.youtube.com/watch?si=p-v_bwWfwyY8W7Sk&v=OEhRucEVzH8&feature=youtu.be

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thank you.

I guess - as a model (an imperfect framework to help view something) i could seperate people out by 3 things???
In my imperfect model - there are three aspects of a person??

1) Physical universe - Brain stuff, physical stuff, scientific method, ... ... ... who the person is physically (genetics, predispositions like alcohol etc etc)
2) Spiritual universe - things like beauty, truth, goodness, god, love, hope. spirit universe is bigger than the physical. This is who the person is in their heart. Do they value god, kindness, love, compassion, goodness, beauty, hope ... ... .... I dont expect they will be able to act this out in the physical universe all the time ... ... ... but to respect and value that stuff is really important to me.
3) Potential self - who the person is capable of becoming. they exist "in potential". It's important to me to see "who they want to be".

for me, number 1 is subordinate to 2 & 3.

2 & 3 are really important.

GDL said:

Care to explain it? Sounds to me like she should do all the work while I sit at the gates with the men and consider God and what His will is for our community

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It's probably getting a bit off-topic. If you're really interested maybe start another thread, and I'll try to look in on it tomorrow (it's getting very late here and I need to go and crash!)

GDL said:

What a thread!

My answer with tongue firmly in cheek is, depends what she looks like!

My real answer: We all come with baggage. She's carrying some heavy bags. All of us will inadvertently raise warning flags usually pretty quickly. Use your God given mentality and leading of the Spirit to recognize those warnings. If your orientation is fleshly, then you're going to ignore them in favor of some fantasy that can end up being hell on earth. Be truthful with yourself about your own limitations. If you get involved physically, then all bets are off, and you'll learn some very harsh lessons for your sinful behavior. Slow, self-controlled, asking God for assistance and guidance and to help you see reality and decide rightly. Give it time and you'll know. Also consider along the way whether or not she is truly in Christ (Matt7:16-20). Same goes for yourself (2Cor13:5). If you find yourself having thoughts you know or think to be sinful, ask our Lord & High Priest to help stop them and keep them at bay (Heb4:15-16). If you cross the line mentally, then acknowledge it to God without hesitation (1John1:9). IOW, abide in Christ and walk in Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of flesh (Gal5:16).

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It does depend on what she looks like. I know that we are to look on the inside and not the outside but in choosing a Wife your inner desires and preferences is what makes it possible because the attraction has to be there.

And she has to have some fruit visible. She can't walk in there with a bad attitude or demands for the marriage before it even happens and think she is showing the man some fruit? SOme hope? What does she bring to the table with her? That makes all the difference in the world.

I believe it can work and she can walk the walk of a Christian and I believe that it has happened. It would be a sad thing to turn down the girl that could have grown into an awesome wife. But everybody knows that dedicated christians are 1 out of 100. So the 99 girls want men to lower their standards on the chance that what a trajedy it would be to beat the christian lady in the head and say no. How Christian is that? Then they slide in as potential Christian lady's! Something dont sound right!

They have a name for that I think. Scheming women? People can lie and do everyday. So why should men compromise their principles because, she says she is Christian and might not be in her heart? (But it's mean and ungodly to do that to a Christian! Nobody's perfect! And that's right. But it cant take away my principles or she is a liar and not wife material.

Paidiske said:

It's probably getting a bit off-topic. If you're really interested maybe start another thread, and I'll try to look in on it tomorrow (it's getting very late here and I need to go and crash!)

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Thanks. I've read and studied it to some degree over the years. Her fear of the Lord is a highlight near the end. That's part of the reality I suggested be looked for and it can take some time to see true repentance at work.

GDL said:

You had the wisdom to look for those red flags (which I just called "warnings" in #219). One must know how to evaluate, and I found it best to not waste a lot of time doing so. As I said, I found that those warnings/red flags get raised pretty quickly in most instances.

I wasn't thinking about Prov31 until I read your post. It reminded me that Prov31:10 questions, Who can find a "gunaika (woman, wife) andreian" (chose your favorite English translation). I saw this in the LXX sometime after I married "Andrea". Close enough.

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It doesn't take a lot of time to evaluate women in most circumstances. They have fruit which will show their heart and intentions. It's right there to read like a book. Many times a single gesture from her can do it, how she carries herself.

There's nothing wrong in buying a car which has no damage over a car which does have damage.

Divide said:

It does depend on what she looks like. I know that we are to look on the inside and not the outside but in choosing a Wife your inner desires and preferences is what makes it possible because the attraction has to be there.

And she has to have some fruit visible. She can't walk in there with a bad attitude or demands for the marriage before it even happens and think she is showing the man some fruit? SOme hope? What does she bring to the table with her? That makes all the difference in the world.

I believe it can work and she can walk the walk of a Christian and I believe that it has happened. It would be a sad thing to turn down the girl that could have grown into an awesome wife. But everybody knows that dedicated christians are 1 out of 100. So the 99 girls want men to lower their standards on the chance that what a trajedy it would be to beat the christian lady in the head and say no. How Christian is that? Then they slide in as potential Christian lady's! Something dont sound right!

They have a name for that I think. Scheming women? People can lie and do everyday. So why should men compromise their principles because, she says she is Christian and might not be in her heart? (But it's mean and ungodly to do that to a Christian! Nobody's perfect! And that's right. But it cant take away my principles or she is a liar and not wife material.

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It works both ways also. I came to realize I needed to be prepared by Him before I could even recognize her, let alone be in Christ what she deserved. Most of us are naturally manipulative in getting what we desire. It doesn't even have to be intentional, in fact most of the time it isn't. That's part of what needs to be worked out of us and it's one of those red flags that can be recognized in others when we're seeing in Spirit and not in flesh.

Divide said:

It doesn't take a lot of time to evaluate women in most circumstances. They have fruit which will show their heart and intentions. It's right there to read like a book.

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If we know how to read and are not blinded by the flesh.

Divide said:

There's nothing wrong in buying a car which has no damage over a car which does have damage.

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We're all damaged. It's a matter of where we are in the process of being repaired.

Paidiske said:

And you're putting that forward as an argument as to why someone who repents and turns to God is not acceptable?

Which would be why none of this conversation has been about people who have not repented or changed their ways. But about people who have indeed done the hard work of making themselves ready.

As for Proverbs 31, there's been so much manipulative and unhelpful bunk written about that passage, I'd ask someone what they understood by it before judging their reaction!

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Why would Proverbs 31 touch a nerve with you?

Well that girl should be married then. If she has deicated herself to the Lord and purified herself and walked in it long enough for it to become second nature to her. Yes, Marry Her!

But how often does that really happen in real life. Not. Very. Often.
I've never been a gambler. I dont like the odds being against me. But if she is true then everything will be ok on it's own. And all these things shall be added unto you. Right?

You can take the girl out of the trailerpark, but you usually can't take the trailerpark out of the girl. Because I cant prove numbers that you would want to see (92% succuess rate!) When it's likely closer to 99% backsliding into previous activites and 1% success...I am now supposed to give the 99 girls the ok? SO that they might not get offended?

That would be offensive to me. A changing of societal norms which would enable even more evil to proliferate in the word. No, don't do it. Tell her No. She will be mad but perhaps she will learn about the seriousness of life? If a girl has learned unconditional love in her heart, she doesn't need to stand up and argue excuses to prove it so, it will shine on it's own.

And it either does or it doesnt. I married the girl that shined. I left the dark one sitting in McD's. What's wrong with that? Nothing.

Divide said:

Why would Proverbs 31 touch a nerve with you?

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I'm just pointing out that there's a lot of unhelpful teaching about it out there, so someone's reaction might not be for bad reasons.

Divide said:

I've never been a gambler. I dont like the odds being against me. But if she is true then everything will be ok on it's own. And all these things shall be added unto you. Right?... I am now supposed to give the 99 girls the ok?

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But nobody's suggesting taking on a woman sight unseen. Good grief! Get to know her. See her character. See how she is in relationships with others. See how she lives her life. And - whatever her sexual past might have been - you'll be able to judge if this person looks like a good potential life partner.

Divide said:

SO that they might not get offended?

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Who has suggested that anyone might be offended? We are discussing hypotheticals. You seem to be taking this thread as personal criticism, but it isn't.

@Paidiske
@Divide

Do you guys find this helpful ????

cut/pasted from above...

I guess - as a model (an imperfect framework to help view something) i could seperate people out by 3 things???
In my imperfect model - there are three aspects of a person??

1) Physical universe - Brain stuff, physical stuff, scientific method, ... ... ... who the person is physically (genetics, predispositions like alcohol etc etc)
2) Spiritual universe - things like beauty, truth, goodness, god, love, hope. spirit universe is bigger than the physical. This is who the person is in their heart. Do they value god, kindness, love, compassion, goodness, beauty, hope ... ... .... I dont expect they will be able to act this out in the physical universe all the time ... ... ... but to respect and value that stuff is really important to me.
3) Potential self - who the person is capable of becoming. they exist "in potential". It's important to me to see "who they want to be".

for me, number 1 is subordinate to 2 & 3.

2 & 3 are really important.

GDL said:

We're all damaged. It's a matter of where we are in the process of being repaired.

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That's right. I have faults. Everyone has faults. We are all on a level playing field. And many girls have it in mind that social status is the important thing, and it's not. We all start out with perfect vehicles and it's like demolition derby on earth. Being hit by many other cars in a short time span may lead to them dropping out of the derby sooner than other cars who havent taken any or much damage. That's just a consequence of the derby.

The winner in the derby doesn't not like the competitors that dropped out and he isnt bad for being the winner. It's still a level playing field where none are slighted. Or all are slighted. So it is what it is here on earth. I believe in willfully evil women because I've seen quite a few of them. They have warning signs. And some girls still have a compassionate heart and at least somewhat of an air of innocence about them. They are a different class of girl almost. On occassion a girl may try hard and clean herself up and learn to do more than she was taught to. (with herself) and become a very excellant wife. Everybody has been taught to hate, arrogance, entitlement, deception and a host of other modern day so-called values, lol. And those teachings get into the heart of individual girls and it detracts from them.

The problem is that no one was (hardly) ever taught to love people. Now people are starting to learn about love. And there is a lot of wannabe evil-genius girls that prey on men and their love. Tightening the bonds of the man and loosing the bonds of the woman. That's not fair so she got left sitting in McDonalds. And that is not meanness to women. That was a specific woman. She had plans for us and would tell me all about them. She was nice sort've but no way would I marry that girl. And so what? There's 4 billion more. So how much offense can she take? Two people didnt work for whatever reason. It happens if youre not careful in selecting a mate.

But there are girls that I have seen and met that simply shined goodness. They dont talk like the other girls, they dont act like the other girls. You can easily see if a woman shines or is darkish. Just open the eyes.

I had a woman tell me once that, women dont marry for love. They marry for security.
Is that true or false?

Proverbs 31 woman - her husband is a respected elder at the gate. hahaha

thats me out !!!!

I'm just a regular bloke - not a respected man in the city haha

So the woman in proverbs 31 wouldn't have me ;-)

Paidiske said:

But nobody's suggesting taking on a woman sight unseen. Good grief! Get to know her. See her character. See how she is in relationships with others. See how she lives her life. And - whatever her sexual past might have been - you'll be able to judge if this person looks like a good potential life partner.

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I learned young to be a good judge of character. I was the youngest of 4 siblings and had a slew of older cousins and lots of family. So I got to see everything that happened to them and I started paying attention! It's not so much her sexual past as it is her present here and now. She either shows good woman fruit or she does not. I'm saying if a guy wants a happy marriage to work then he has to learn how to be able to say no to even a beautiful woman (who has warning flags). Less than 5 minutes of watching somone and you can be pretty sure of who they are, what type of character they have.

I'm saying run from those girls. But don't run from a lady who is shining! Marry that little girl!

Paidiske said:

Who has suggested that anyone might be offended? We are discussing hypotheticals. You seem to be taking this thread as personal criticism, but it isn't.

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I believe you did. I thought of course you had taken offense to me because it is reflected in your speech. You said I'm hostile. How can that be if the girl we speak of is hypothetical? I just sense your frustration is all. And I know there are plenty of females here and I'm trying not to offend any of them, but how is that even possible? I dont mean to sound harsh but this is a hypothetical with a very important Principle attached to it. Like a parable almost. The story is fiction but the Biblical Principle is absolute truth. Right? So no one should be upset.

Some girls might not like how I talk. But that doesntmatter as long we stay polite, right? No big deal. Don't sweat the small stuff.

That was Marriage advice that my Dad told me before I got married. Dont sweat the small stuff. Good advice that I carried with me.

Divide said:

I had a woman tell me once that, women dont marry for love. They marry for security.
Is that true or false?

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As the great philosopher Haddaway asked, "What is love?"

And that's a serious question. If it's true (and it may be) that women marry for security...so what? What does that mean, right or wrong?

What does love need to be?

Doesn't it matter what a particular woman believes (consciously or unconsciously) what "security" means when she makes a mating choice? Doesn't it matter more how her concept of security (consciously or unconsciously) evolves as she ages (notice, I did not say "matures")?

What is "love" for a man? Maybe just sex and a sandwich. Maybe just peace and grace. Undoubtedly, something different from what it means to a woman, and both men and women are barking up the wrong trees if we think "love" means the same thing to us all.

I go back often to that song in "Fiddler on the Roof," where Golde asks herself the question, "what is love?"

This Friday is my wife and my 40th wedding anniversary.

Divide said:

We are all on a level playing field.

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We're really not.

Divide said:

We all start out with perfect vehicles

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We really don't.

Divide said:

The problem is that no one was (hardly) ever taught to love people.

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The problem is sin.

Divide said:

But there are girls that I have seen and met that simply shined goodness. They dont talk like the other girls, they dont act like the other girls.

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Maybe you should have married one by now.

Divide said:

I had a woman tell me once that, women dont marry for love. They marry for security.
Is that true or false?

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Probably some true and some false. But I don't know every woman.

Divide said:

It does depend on what she looks like. I know that we are to look on the inside and not the outside but in choosing a Wife your inner desires and preferences is what makes it possible because the attraction has to be there.

And she has to have some fruit visible. She can't walk in there with a bad attitude or demands for the marriage before it even happens and think she is showing the man some fruit? SOme hope? What does she bring to the table with her? That makes all the difference in the world.

I believe it can work and she can walk the walk of a Christian and I believe that it has happened. It would be a sad thing to turn down the girl that could have grown into an awesome wife. But everybody knows that dedicated christians are 1 out of 100. So the 99 girls want men to lower their standards on the chance that what a trajedy it would be to beat the christian lady in the head and say no. How Christian is that? Then they slide in as potential Christian lady's! Something dont sound right!

They have a name for that I think. Scheming women? People can lie and do everyday. So why should men compromise their principles because, she says she is Christian and might not be in her heart? (But it's mean and ungodly to do that to a Christian! Nobody's perfect! And that's right. But it cant take away my principles or she is a liar and not wife material.

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Let's not talk about women in some general way and committ the Fallacy of Composition, all the while ignoring the fact that the very same arguments you make here about women can just as easily be applied to men as well.

The point of this thread has already been updended more than once, and here we are all debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.