• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Preterism misrepresents Scripture

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No that is the point, you have to have the Father holding onto the vineyard and not giving it to the Son.
In the parable the vineyard owner is the Father and the son is the Son of God, Jesus. And it says the vineyard owner, which refers to God the Father, would come and destroy those who killed his son and does not say that the son would come to destroy them. Why are you trying to change that?

Are you scoffing and asking where is the promise of his AD70 coming?
LOL. Why would I ask where is the promise of an event that would have already occurred long ago? There was no promise of Jesus coming in 70 AD, so I absolutely am scoffing at that, if that's what you're asking.
 
Upvote 0

grafted branch

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Feb 21, 2019
1,540
252
48
Washington
✟284,828.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
In the parable the vineyard owner is the Father and the son is the Son of God, Jesus. And it says the vineyard owner, which refers to God the Father, would come and destroy those who killed his son and does not say that the son would come to destroy them. Why are you trying to change that?
Matthew 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

NIV “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

The parable only states the owner of vineyard comes. Who owned the vineyard in AD70?
There was no promise of Jesus coming in 70 AD, so I absolutely am scoffing at that, if that's what you're asking.
Ok, just checking.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟899,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jesus was very clearly referring to God the Father coming and destroying the tenants who represented the chief priests and Pharisees, not the Son.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

You deny Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of Matthew 21?

The Son is also The owner of the vineyard
Matthew 21:38
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Timtofly

Well-Known Member
Jun 29, 2020
9,417
575
57
Mount Morris
✟140,528.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

You deny Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of Matthew 21?

The Son is also The owner of the vineyard
Matthew 21:38
So did the Father also die on the Cross with the Son? How consistent are you?

For the record, I say yes.

Still does not mean that 70AD was the Second Coming, and the end of the fulness of the Gentiles, and God restored Israel to preeminence among the nations.

Jesus also appeared to Abraham and showed Abraham the nail scares and spear wound, teaching Abraham about the future death and resurrection of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Unless you are a celebrating Roman of the first century, 70AD is not really that important, any more than Noah's Flood is important to us. Except the Flood totally messes with the modern scientific explanation of reality.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟333,797.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But, they shouldn't have been. They were mistaken. Why would you think otherwise? I'm not just making this up. Paul said it was foolish to still try to follow the old covenant law.
Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
The old covenant was no longer in effect after Christ's death regardless of whether people were still trying to follow it after that or not. That is the point. His death put a complete end to the old covenant and established the new covenant. That's what being made obsolete means. People trying to still live under the old covenant when they should have been starting to live under the new covenant was meaningless.

So what? That doesn't change the fact that the old covenant was made completely obsolete and no longer in effect by Christ's death. The Jews weren't the ones to determine when it was no longer in effect, Jesus was.

Already agreed the old covenant was made obsolete at the cross.

Again, my point was that the “traces” were actually much bigger , as thousands of Christian Jews, including the apostles James, were zealous for the law even decades after the cross. Whether they were right or wrong, is besides the point.

As to Galatians - that passage is about the Galatians attempting to rely on the Law for righteousness, which is only applicable IF the thousands of Christian Jews, who were zealous for the law, were still practicing in order to obtain righteousness.


That is false. It's sad that you accept what secular sources who have an agenda tell you instead of accepting what the Word of God itself indicates.

Genesis 6:6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.

Did the Lord regret that He had made human beings only in a specific region of the earth? Of course not. That's ridiculous. He was clearly speaking of human beings in general. And it says He would wipe them from the face of the earth. Not from just a certain place on the earth, but from the entire earth. Why do you not accept what scripture teaches over what anti-Christian sources say?
What is your basis for saying this? Are you a scientist? Have you done the research on this yourself? There are scientists who make that claim and other scientists who say otherwise. How do you decide which geologists and scientists you believe?
Why do you act as if all archaeologists agree on these things? What is your source for this?

Not false, as there is no serious evidence that there was ever a global flood - that it is solely the fundamentalist interpretation of an ANE text that held to a completely different cosmological understanding of the world. Do you believe the world looks the same as ANE cosmology?

My sources are Christian geologists:

Christians in the natural sciences, particularly Christian professional geologists, are overwhelmingly in agreement that the Earth is extremely old, and they accept the current determination of approximately 4.55 billion years as the most reliable value for the age of Earth





Of course most Greek words have multiple definitions. But, explain to me exactly how "a philsophy, structure, etc." can melt with fervent heat even in a figurative sense.

the temple was literally burned with fire.

And who told you this? It says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. That's the literal heavens and literal entire earth. Trying to say otherwise is just a case of trying to change the Word of God to say what you want it to say.

The Gospel Coalition spells it out nicely:


“So when God refers to “days,” does he want us to mentally substitute the word “eons” or “ages”? No.

Does he want us to think of precise units of time, marked by 24 exact hours as the earth makes a rotation on its axis? No.

Does he want us to think of the Hebrew workday? Yes, in an analogical and anthropomorphic sense. Just as the “seventh day” makes us think of an ordinary calendar day (even though it isn’t technically a 24-hour period), so the other “six days” are meant to be read in the same way.

This is what the great Reformed theologian Herman Bavinck (1854-1921) believed: “The creation days are the workdays of God. By a labor, resumed and renewed six times, he prepared the whole earth.”

This is also what the Presbyterian theologian W.G.T. Shedd (1820-1894) advocated:

The seven days of the human week are copies of the seven days of the divine week. The “sun-divided days” are images of the “God-divided days.”
This agrees with the biblical representation generally. The human is the copy of the divine, not the divine of the human. Human fatherhood and sonship are finite copies of the Trinitarian fatherhood and sonship. Human justice, benevolence, holiness, mercy, etc., are imitations of corresponding divine qualities.

The reason given for man’s rest upon the seventh solar day is that God rested upon the seventh creative day (Ex. 20:11). But this does not prove that the divine rest was only twenty-four hours in duration any more than the fact that human sonship is a copy of the divine proves that the latter is sexual.

Augustine (the most influential theologian in the Western Church) believed something similar, as did Franz Delitzsch (perhaps the great Christian Hebraist).

It was the most common view among the late 19th century and early 20th century CONSERVATIVE Dutch theologians.

God is portrayed as a workman going through his workweek, working during the day and resting for the night. Then on his Sabbath, he enjoys a full and refreshing rest. Our days are likeGod’s workdays, but not identical to them.

How long were God’s workdays? The Bible doesn’t say. But I see no reason to insist that they were only 24 hours long.”

Are you being purposely dishonest here? You're talking about the geometric center of the universe, right? That is not what they mean when they say that. Why wouldn't you have mentioned what they meant by that?

This is what they say about that: "The earth occupies the central position in the entire universe because of its God-given role, even though it may not be in the geometrical center.". How convenient for you to not mention this.

I thought the article didn’t really make sense - evolutionists say earth is not the geometric center of the universe. Answers in genesis responds by saying - earth is the center but “may” not be the geometric center - I just thought it was bizarre article. If answers in genesis doesn’t believe earth is the geometric center, it didn’t really warrant a response to “evolutionists”.


Those dating methods have been proven to be faulty. Why do you put so much blind trust in such things? I'm in agreement with Answers in Genesis on this when they say:

"Radiometric dating measures the decay of radioactive atoms to determine the age of a rock sample. It is founded on unprovable assumptions such as 1) there has been no contamination and 2) the decay rate has remained constant. By dating rocks of known ages which give highly inflated ages, geologists have shown this method can’t give reliable absolute ages.".

Here's more info about radiometric dating: Radiometric Dating

Answers in genesis claim of dating rocks of known ages is based on an extremely poor study of an eruption on mount saint helens - see link where a Christian geologists explains the hack science of young earth creationists.


Additionally, Answers in Genesis’ claim of the decay rate constant being unprovable assumption is absolutely incorrect.

“When reference books list values for the half-life of various materials, they are really listing the half-life for the material when its atoms are at rest, in the ground state, and in a particular chemical bonding configuration. Note that most changes to the half-life of radioactive materials are very small. Furthermore, large changes to a half-life require elaborate, expensive, high-energy equipment (e.g. particle accelerators, nuclear reactors, ion traps). Therefore, outside of specialized labs, we can say that as a good approximation radioactive decay half-lives don't change. For instance, carbon dating and geological radiometric dating are so accurate because decay half-lives in nature are so close to constant.”


While I’m not a geologist, I do have a doctorate in pharmaceutical sciences with training in nuclear medicine. decay rate constants are required for calculations in making sure the right doses are provided for procedures.

So unless a lab is doing something to the decay rate constant, radiometric dating is pretty accurate - and the earth is older than 10,000 years old.
 
  • Like
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.

You deny Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone of Matthew 21?
Of course I don't. Please don't ask me ridiculous questions. Thanks.

The Son is also The owner of the vineyard
Matthew 21:38
The parable differentiates between the owner of the vineyard (the Father) and his son (Jesus). You can't change that.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟899,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Of course I don't. Please don't ask me ridiculous questions. Thanks.
Do I understand you to be saying the Chief Cornerstone did NOT fall on them and grind them to Powder at that time, as Jesus Promised?
The parable differentiates between the owner of the vineyard (the Father) and his son (Jesus). You can't change that.
The Parable Equates the coming of the Father with the coming of the Chief Cornerstone, who you agree is Jesus, to Crush them.
It was a family affair, further demonstrating Christ's EQUALITY with the Father.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Do I understand you to be saying the Chief Cornerstone did NOT fall on them and grind them to Powder at that time, as Jesus Promised?
No, you don't understand me to be saying that. Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come and you're trying to get around that. It was their rejection of the chief cornerstone, Jesus, that led the Father to have them destroyed.

The Parable Equates the coming of the Father with the coming of the Chief Cornerstone, who you agree is Jesus, to Crush them.
It was a family affair, further demonstrating Christ's EQUALITY with the Father.
No, it does not. Jesus very specifically differentiated between the land owner and the land owner's son, but you are not. I understand that the Father and Son are both God, so I'm not denying the trinity or anything here. But, the fact of the matter is that they are also differentiated in a sense and Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come to destroy them, not the son. You are trying any way you can to get around that.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟899,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come to destroy them, not the son. You are trying any way you can to get around that.
Let's exegete the scripture together.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”


Ok so here we see it's The Chief Priests and Pharisees making the claim that the owner will do these things...Jesus simply asked them the question. So your very first assertion that "Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come to destroy them" is not supported at all by this passage. Not at all.

Now, Jesus responds to elucidate and educate them as to what WILL happen to them:

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Please help me understand your position on vs 44 & 45.

Why do you think the Priests and Pharisees understood, when Jesus said to them "on whomever it [The Stone, which is Jesus] falls, it will grind them to powder" that Jesus was speaking OF THEM?

What do you say Jesus meant (and they understood) by the Stone (Jesus) falling upon them and grinding them to powder at the time of the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard?
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: claninja
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's exegete the scripture together.
Yes, let's.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”


Ok so here we see it's The Chief Priests and Pharisees making the claim that the owner will do these things...Jesus simply asked them the question. So your very first assertion that "Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come to destroy them" is not supported at all by this passage. Not at all.
I said that because He very specifically mentions the owner of the vineyard coming and doing something to "those vinedressers". He did not say that the son of the owner of the vineyard would come. Why are you trying to change that?

And He does not tell them that they were wrong about what they said in response. Their response was to His question about what the owner of the vineyard would come to do and they were correct in their understanding of what He would do, right? You are trying to change it into the son of the owner of the vineyard coming to destroy them, but that is not what Jesus said. He said the owner of the vineyard would come and the owner of the vineyard in the parable undeniably represents God the Father with the son of the vineyard owner representing Jesus.


Now, Jesus responds to elucidate and educate them as to what WILL happen to them:

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

Please help me understand your position on vs 44 & 45.

Why do you think the Priests and Pharisees understood, when Jesus said to them "on whomever it [The Stone, which is Jesus] falls, it will grind them to powder" that Jesus was speaking OF THEM?
Because they rejected Jesus. The Father was going to have them destroyed because of their rejection of His Son, the chief cornerstone. It's not saying that Jesus Himself would destroy them, it's saying they would be destroyed because of their rejection of Him. And, again, Jesus specifically said it would be the vineyard owner that would come, not the son of the vineyard owner. You are trying to get around that.

What do you say Jesus meant (and they understood) by the Stone (Jesus) falling upon them and grinding them to powder at the time of the Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard?
Already explained that above. Again, Jesus said the vineyard owner would come and He differentiated between the vineyard owner and the son of the vineyard owner in the parable. Making them the same doesn't cut it since Jesus Himself didn't make them the same. So, it's the Father coming to destroy them because they rejected the chief cornerstone which obviously is His Son Jesus.

I understand that your entire doctrine hinges on this parable teaching that Jesus is the one who would come to destroy them because then you can try to claim that the coming of the Son of man in the Olivet Discourse is a reference to Him coming to destroy those who rejected Him. So, it's no wonder that you so badly want this parable to be saying that Jesus Himself would come to destroy them, but it says the Father would come to destroy them instead. The vineyard owner is the Father and is differentiated from the son of the vineyard owner, which represents the Son of God, Jesus. You can keep trying to get around that all you want, but you can't.
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟333,797.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, it does not. Jesus very specifically differentiated between the land owner and the land owner's son, but you are not. I understand that the Father and Son are both God, so I'm not denying the trinity or anything here. But, the fact of the matter is that they are also differentiated in a sense and Jesus very specifically said the land owner would come to destroy them, not the son. You are trying any way you can to get around that.

No doubt Christ didn’t count equality with the Father when he was born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:6-8 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,cbeing born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

So it’s unsurprising that Christ differentiated the son, who was the heir of the vineyard, from the vineyard owner.

That being said, The vineyard owner returns and destroys the wicked tenants for killing his son - this is an obvious allusion to 70ad, and the wrath of God on the wicked tenants, and the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written.

the issue, then, is vs 44b:


And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

44a is the clear reference of Christ being a stumbling block to unbelieving Jews.

1 Corinthians 1:22-23 22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

Romans 9:33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

1 Peter 2:7-8 7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”a 8and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

So what does 44b refer to? We know Christ is the stone, so is it your position that this is completely unrelated to the coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants?

“and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him”

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them

19The scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him at that very hour, for they perceived that he had told this parable against them, but they feared the people

12And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away
 
  • Like
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No doubt Christ didn’t count equality with the Father when he was born in the likeness of men.

Philippians 2:6-8 6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,cbeing born in the likeness of men. 8And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

So it’s unsurprising that Christ differentiated the son, who was the heir of the vineyard, from the vineyard owner.

That being said, The vineyard owner returns and destroys the wicked tenants for killing his son - this is an obvious allusion to 70ad, and the wrath of God on the wicked tenants, and the days of vengeance to fulfill all that is written.

the issue, then, is vs 44b:


And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”

44a is the clear reference of Christ being a stumbling block to unbelieving Jews.

1 Corinthians 1:22-23 22Jews demand signs and Greeks search for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

Romans 9:33 As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

1 Peter 2:7-8 7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe, “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”a 8and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

So what does 44b refer to? We know Christ is the stone, so is it your position that this is completely unrelated to the coming of the vineyard owner to destroy the wicked tenants?

“and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him”

45When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them

19The scribes and the chief priests sought to lay hands on him at that very hour, for they perceived that he had told this parable against them, but they feared the people

12And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away
No, I don't believe it is unrelated. I've said multiple times now that the vineyard owner, who undeniably represents God the Father, would be the one to come and destroy the unbelieving Jews because of rejecting His Son. That is what is indicated in the parable and you are continuing to try and find a way around that.

The reason that God the Father would come to destroy them was because of them rejecting the stone which represents the Father's Son Jesus Christ. When it talks about the stone crushing them that is symbolic text. It's not saying that the one represented by the stone is the one who will destroy them. It's saying they would be killed because of rejecting the stone, so it is in that sense that they are crushed by the stone they rejected.

And, again, the text indicates that the one who would actually be the one to come and destroy them would be the vineyard owner. The vineyard owner represents God the Father, not the son, Jesus. Jesus differentiated between the vineyard owner and his son. The fact that God the Father and God the Son are one God (with the Holy Spirit) doesn't change the fact that there is a sense in which God the Father and the Son are differentiated as well. Nowhere does it indicate the son would be the one to come and destroy them. Jesus specifically said "when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?". If He was referring to His own coming rather than a coming of the Father, then why wouldn't He have said "when the son of the vineyard owner comes, what will he do to those tenants"?
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟333,797.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, I don't believe it is unrelated. I've said multiple times now that the vineyard owner, who undeniably represents God the Father, would be the one to come and destroy the unbelieving Jews because of rejecting His Son. That is what is indicated in the parable and you are continuing to try and find a way around that.

The reason that God the Father would come to destroy them was because of them rejecting the stone which represents the Father's Son Jesus Christ. When it talks about the stone crushing them that is symbolic text. It's not saying that the one represented by the stone is the one who will destroy them. It's saying they would be killed because of rejecting the stone, so it is in that sense that they are crushed by the stone they rejected.

And, again, the text indicates that the one who would actually be the one to come and destroy them would be the vineyard owner. The vineyard owner represents God the Father, not the son, Jesus. Jesus differentiated between the vineyard owner and his son. The fact that God the Father and God the Son are one God (with the Holy Spirit) doesn't change the fact that there is a sense in which God the Father and the Son are differentiated as well. Nowhere does it indicate the son would be the one to come and destroy them. Jesus specifically said "when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?". If He was referring to His own coming rather than a coming of the Father, then why wouldn't He have said "when the son of the vineyard owner comes, what will he do to those tenants"?

The son is not the master of the vineyard post His death?

The passage states “when the vineyard owner comes what will he do? “

Upon the Pharisees saying he will destroy the wicked tenants, Jesus responds by saying the stone the builders rejected “has become” the cornerstone. The very son the tenants rejected is the heir and master of the vineyard. He was their stumbling block and he was the stone that would crush them.


Do you believe Jesus was the stone that caused them to stumble? Then how can he not also be the very stone to crush them?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The son is not the master of the vineyard post His death?

The passage states “when the vineyard owner comes what will he do? “
In the parable the vineyard owner represents God the Father and the vineyard owner's son represents Jesus. Why are you trying to get around that?

Upon the Pharisees saying he will destroy the wicked tenants, Jesus responds by saying the stone the builders rejected “has become” the cornerstone. The very son the tenants rejected is the heir and master of the vineyard. He was their stumbling block and he was the stone that would crush them.

Do you believe Jesus was the stone that caused them to stumble? Then how can he not also be the very stone to crush them?
He indicated that the vineyard owner would come to destroy them. Who did the vineyard owner represent in the parable?
 
Upvote 0

claninja

Well-Known Member
Jan 8, 2017
5,725
2,194
indiana
✟333,797.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the parable the vineyard owner represents God the Father and the vineyard owner's son represents Jesus. Why are you trying to get around that?


He indicated that the vineyard owner would come to destroy them. Who did the vineyard owner represent in the parable?

No disagreement that the master of the vineyard is represented by God, and the son represents Christ, the heir of the vineyard - all prior to the crushing of the wicked tenants.

But Christ clearly states the stone the builders rejected “has become” the cornerstone and will crush those who it falls on. Christ is the master of the vineyard that crushed the wicked tenants
 
  • Like
Reactions: parousia70
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,924
306
Taylors
✟100,448.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
No disagreement that the master of the vineyard is represented by God, and the son represents Christ, the heir of the vineyard - all prior to the crushing of the wicked tenants.

But Christ clearly states the stone the builders rejected “has become” the cornerstone and will crush those who it falls on. Christ is the master of the vineyard that crushed the wicked tenants
This comment above agrees with John 5:22 & 27. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son...and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
Paul also announced the same thing in Acts 17:31. "Because He" (God) "did set a day, in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised Him out of the dead."

Jesus Christ was the instrument God used to perform judgment on the husbandmen of the vineyard. That is why the returning Christ has all His garments dipped in the blood of His enemies in Revelation 19:13.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No disagreement that the master of the vineyard is represented by God, and the son represents Christ, the heir of the vineyard - all prior to the crushing of the wicked tenants.

But Christ clearly states the stone the builders rejected “has become” the cornerstone and will crush those who it falls on. Christ is the master of the vineyard that crushed the wicked tenants
You're contradicting what Jesus said in His parable. Jesus Himself said it would be the vineyard owner, not the vineyard owner's son, that would come and He would destroy the wicked tenants. You are trying to change the parable and make the son of the vineyard owner the one who would come even though that is not what Jesus said. If it was the son who was going to come then it would say, but it says the vineyard owner would come instead.

Matthew 21:42 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

Can you see here that it says the owner of the vineyard would come? Does the owner of the vineyard represent God the Father or does it represent His Son Jesus in the parable? You said "No disagreement that the master of the vineyard is represented by God, and the son represents Christ" and yet you are still trying to make it as though Jesus said the son would come rather than the vineyard owner. Jesus becoming the cornerstone doesn't make Him the vineyard owner rather than the son of the vineyard owner. The vineyard owner in the parable is God the Father. Period. You can't change the parable.
 
Upvote 0

Spiritual Jew

Amillennialist
Site Supporter
Oct 12, 2020
8,085
2,716
MI
✟405,414.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This comment above agrees with John 5:22 & 27. "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son...and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man."
Paul also announced the same thing in Acts 17:31. "Because He" (God) "did set a day, in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised Him out of the dead."

Jesus Christ was the instrument God used to perform judgment on the husbandmen of the vineyard. That is why the returning Christ has all His garments dipped in the blood of His enemies in Revelation 19:13.
The day of judgment of all people being judged has clearly not yet arrived. You are mistaken. God set a day in which all people from all-time will have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves. Acts 17:30 talks about how God commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:31 talks about how God has "given assurance to all". That's talking about literally all people since literally all people are commanded to repent and God gave assurance to literally all people having raised the man He ordained (Jesus, obviously) from the dead. So, "the world" there refers to literally all people everywhere being judged when the appointed day arrives in the future.
 
Upvote 0

Aaron112

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2022
5,341
1,353
TULSA
✟102,804.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
There are so many contradictions and butchering of the sacred text in Preterism that it is hard to know where to start when refuting it.
? I thought that false gospel was not permitted online... maybe it was another forum....
Refuting it is not apparently possible online...
 
Upvote 0