Bishop Shelby Spong and evidence for resurrection, etc

jayem · Jun 26, 2022

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
If you count a non-Christian as your brother in Christ, I wonder what you make of Christianity in general. I guess Christianity to you, can be anything, we can reject the resurrection, we can reject the Trinity and all of those things Christians before us defended and upheld. If one doesn't need to be a Christian in order to be an Episcopalian, can it be said that your Church is still a Christian Church? It might be a majority Christian Church at this point in time, but not exclusively a Christian one. See the problem when you allow equal membership and status to non-Christians like Spong?

I admit that I'm not a Christian, nor am I any variety of religious believer. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But neither you, nor anyone is the arbiter of who is Christian and who is not. By your standard, Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian. I have a copy of The Jefferson Bible, his redacted gospel accounts. He kept Jesus's ethical teachings that he liked. But cut out all the supernatural goings-on. Ben Franklin was similar. He admired Jesus's moral pronouncements, but he doubted that Jesus was in any way divine. Do you think Mormons are Christians? They believe Jesus came to North America to teach his gospel. And that the Book of Mormon is updated revelation of God's word for our times. Quakers believe each person finds God in his own way, according to his inner light. You can only speak for yourself. Because other than faith, how can you know who is correct and who is not?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jun 26, 2022

jayem said:
I admit that I'm not a Christian, nor am I any variety of religious believer. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion. But neither you, nor anyone is the arbiter of who is Christian and who is not. By your standard, Thomas Jefferson wasn't a Christian. I have a copy of The Jefferson Bible, his redacted gospel accounts. He kept Jesus's ethical teachings that he liked. But cut out all the supernatural goings-on. Ben Franklin was similar. He admired Jesus's moral pronouncements, but he doubted that Jesus was in any way divine. Do you think Mormons are Christians? They believe Jesus came to North America to teach his gospel. And that the Book of Mormon is updated revelation of God's word for our times. Quakers believe each person finds God in his own way, according to his inner light. You can only speak for yourself. Because other than faith, how can you know who is correct and who is not?

If neither of us are entitled to determine who is and who is not a Christian why do you feel capable of calling Jefferson a non-Christian? I agree with you in your assessment. He was not a Christian because he denied who Christ was and believed a Deistic God who did little more than put things in motion. Yet if I am not entitled to this opinion, to judge someone else as not being a brother in Christ, then the idea of Christianity collapses under the pressure of individualism. All the presumptions the New Testament has about holding brothers to account, of excommunication or recognizing heretics and dealing with them accordingly cannot be sustained.

So I think you are wrong. I can speak for more than myself since I am part of a tradition going back two thousand years. In that tradition there are agreed upon norms, one of those is a belief in God, another is the resurrection. John Shelby Spong and Thomas Jefferson, denied both ideas in the Christian sense.

Quakers, so long as they adhere to the resurrection and believe the Trinity are Christian in my estimation. Mormons, because they divide the Godhead into three distinct beings and believe God to be a literal man (at one point a mere man like us) are not Christian although they hold many Christian moral virtues and positions.

hedrick · Jun 27, 2022

JohnClay said:
John Shelby Spong - Wikipedia
The late bishop "rejects the historical truth claims of some Christian doctrines, such as the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus"
He seems to even be against the existence of a traditional God, etc.
wanting”)
...
Did they reject those things because they thought there wasn't enough evidence? If the evidence is overwhelming why did they reject it? Were they tricked by Satan?

Yes, Spong thought the evidence doesn't support the historical truth of those episodes. His reasons had to do both with a skeptical view of the accuracy of the Bible and philosophical ideas about the nature of God. My impression is that he hasn't aged well. I don't see many references to him today.

FireDragon76 · Sep 2, 2023

Sketcher said:
I find Spong's expressed views to be inconsistent with the Apostle's Creed, so I don't see how he's Christian.

Spong's views aren't as outlandish among actual clergy in the Episcopal Church. I found him to be a person that was abrasive, and sometimes misguided or just wrong, but only because he was passionate about wanting to help people understand Christianity in a deeper way.

The creeds are not understood in most Mainline Protestant churches as religious purity tests. They are more like testaments or symbols. No Mainline Protestant church has ever dogmatically defined the nature of Jesus' resurrection, nor should they do so.

Carl Emerson · Sep 2, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Spong's views aren't as outlandish among actual clergy in the Episcopal Church. I found him to be a person that was abrasive, and sometimes misguided or just wrong, but only because he was passionate about wanting to help people understand Christianity in a deeper way.

The creeds are not understood in most Mainline Protestant churches as religious purity tests. They are more like testaments or symbols. No Mainline Protestant church has ever dogmatically defined the nature of Jesus' resurrection, nor should they do so.

Deeper doesn't always mean truthful...

FireDragon76 · Sep 2, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Deeper doesn't always mean truthful...

It depends on how you define truth. Not everybody adheres to a correspondence theory of truth. Believe it or not, not all philosophers are in agreement about the nature of truth.

seeking.IAM · Sep 2, 2023

I am not a fan of Spong. I do not think his beliefs represent most Episcopalians I know. Nonetheless, deciding who is and who is not a Christian is well above my pay grade. That's one of those things I'm content to let God sort out.

Sketcher · Sep 2, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Spong's views aren't as outlandish among actual clergy in the Episcopal Church. I found him to be a person that was abrasive, and sometimes misguided or just wrong, but only because he was passionate about wanting to help people understand Christianity in a deeper way.

That doesn't reflect well upon such clergymen.

FireDragon76 said:
The creeds are not understood in most Mainline Protestant churches as religious purity tests. They are more like testaments or symbols. No Mainline Protestant church has ever dogmatically defined the nature of Jesus' resurrection, nor should they do so.

The easy answer is that Jesus was bodily risen from the grave on the third day by God's power.

Soyeong · Sep 3, 2023

JohnClay said:
John Shelby Spong - Wikipedia
The late bishop "rejects the historical truth claims of some Christian doctrines, such as the virgin birth and the bodily resurrection of Jesus"
He seems to even be against the existence of a traditional God, etc.

9 Things You Should Know About Martin Luther King, Jr.
The pastor Martin Luther King Jr
"held unorthodox views on theology, which he expressed during his time at Crozer Theological Seminary. In a paper he wrote for a systematic theology class he cast skeptical aspersions on the doctrines of divine Sonship, the Virgin Birth (”. . . the evidence for the tenability of this doctrine is too shallow to convince any objective thinker”), and the Resurrection (”. . . the external evidence for the authenticity of this doctrine is found wanting”)

Did they reject those things because they thought there wasn't enough evidence? If the evidence is overwhelming why did they reject it? Were they tricked by Satan?

“the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight” (1 Corinthians 3:18-19).

Were they using the "wisdom of this world"?

edit:
Would you consider MLK and the bishop to be Christians? Some Chrsitians say you have to believe in the resurrection to be a true Christian....

Some people deny so much of Christianity that I am not sure why they claim to be Christians, though people can still act in the manner of follower of Christ even if they deny with their mouth that that is what they are doing, and the way that they act speaks louder than their words. People if we needed to have a perfect understanding of what it means to follow Christ in order to be saved, then heaven would be rather empty, yet there is a line somewhere that someone can have such a poor understanding of what it means to follow Christ that they aren't actually following him in spite of thinking that is what they are doing.

Carl Emerson · Sep 3, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
It depends on how you define truth. Not everybody adheres to a correspondence theory of truth. Believe it or not, not all philosophers are in agreement about the nature of truth.

Yes - they asked Jesus that...

And I well remember in philosophy being told there was no such thing as an absolute.

Jesus is the absolute Word.

Lukaris · Sep 3, 2023

I hope Spong is in paradise awaiting the resurrection as a saved soul. His earthy expression of faith seems like it should be rejected. Comparing what the apostle St. Paul preaches in 1 Corinthians 15:1-58 to speculations otherwise should bear this out.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sep 3, 2023

seeking.IAM said:
I am not a fan of Spong. I do not think his beliefs represent most Episcopalians I know. Nonetheless, deciding who is and who is not a Christian is well above my pay grade. That's one of those things I'm content to let God sort out.

How about something as basic as actually believing Jesus rose from the dead? Spong denied that.

You know, the nicene creed? We are allowed to make judgements against people as Christians because If we can't determine who is and who is not a Christian then Christianity is meaningless. There would be no distinction between Richard Dawkins and you.

hedrick · Sep 3, 2023

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
How about something as basic as actually believing Jesus rose from the dead? Spong denied that.

You know, the nicene creed? We are allowed to make judgements against people as Christians because If we can't determine who is and who is not a Christian then Christianity is meaningless. There would be no distinction between Richard Dawkins and you.

He says he accepts the resurrection. I don’t think an explanation of what he means and why would e acceptable under CF rules.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sep 3, 2023

hedrick said:
He says he accepts the resurrection as taught by Paul. I don’t think an explanation of what he means and why would e acceptable under CF rules.

Which means he didn't believe Jesus actually rose from the dead. Let's be clear here. He believed our Lord, when he died, remained dead.

Aussie Pete · Sep 5, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
Spong's views aren't as outlandish among actual clergy in the Episcopal Church. I found him to be a person that was abrasive, and sometimes misguided or just wrong, but only because he was passionate about wanting to help people understand Christianity in a deeper way.

The creeds are not understood in most Mainline Protestant churches as religious purity tests. They are more like testaments or symbols. No Mainline Protestant church has ever dogmatically defined the nature of Jesus' resurrection, nor should they do so.

Spong was a heretic, it's as simple as that. And yes, UK Anglicianism is rife with it, which explains why it will cease to exist in the not too distant future.

FireDragon76 · Sep 5, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
Spong was a heretic, it's as simple as that. And yes, UK Anglicianism is rife with it, which explains why it will cease to exist in the not too distant future.

Religion in general is on the decline in the UK, so that isn't saying anything extraordinary about Anglicanism.

Bishop Shelby Spong and evidence for resurrection, etc

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