Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

tonychanyt · Jul 27, 2023

Romans 6:

23 the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We all sin. We all die according to God's law. So, we need atonement, Leviticus 17:

11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life.

Jesus knew it, Luke 18:

31 Then Jesus took the Twelve aside and said to them, “Look, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything the prophets have written about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. 32 He will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and insulted and spit upon. 33 They will flog Him and kill Him, and on the third day He will rise again.”

Jesus said it was necessary, Luke 24:

25 he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

Paul explained in Hebrews 10:

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
7Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,

It was the will of God that Christ should die.

as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’” ...
10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice who died for us according to the will of God.

Was there another way around this?

Matthew 26:39

Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

The answer was no.

Philippians 2

8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

As a result:

9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

He died for sinners. He knew it was necessary. There was no other way.

d taylor · Jul 27, 2023

-

...In Genesis after Adams sin God chose as the means of atonement for sin was blood. That is seen by God taking the life of an animal to provide the covering for man/women.

...It can be seen that the effort of Adam and Eve to cover their sin (the leaves) was not accepted by God. That can show that man can not attain the way back to God by their own efforts (living good, repenting of sin, baptism, obedience, church attendance,etc..) that God has given the way back through faith/belief in Jesus.

prodromos · Aug 10, 2023

He died to destroy death.

St_Worm2 · Aug 10, 2023

Hi @tonychanyt, here are some additional verses/passages about this topic (though I did repeat one of yours from Hebrews).

Isaiah 53

5 He was pierced through for our transgressions,

He was crushed for our iniquities;

The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by His scourging we are healed.

6 All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him.

1 Peter 2

24 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the Cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

25 For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls.

John 14

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."

Acts 4

12 There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”

Romans 5

8 God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

2 Corinthians 5

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Hebrews 9

22 All things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Hebrews 10

4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

God bless you!!

--David

d taylor · Aug 11, 2023

prodromos said:
He died to destroy death.

-

It was Jesus's resurrection that defeated death.

prodromos · Aug 11, 2023

d taylor said:
-

It was Jesus's resurrection that defeated death.

Let me put it this way then. It was the price of entry into Hades. He couldn't destroy the power of death by His resurrection if He didn't die first.

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

He didn't HAVE to

He and God, being the only two in existence, did not have to go the route of Satan, Adam/Eve, Tree of Knowledge etc

They could have done something entirely different that didn't involve the horrors of death/sin/politics

tonychanyt · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
He didn't HAVE to

He and God, being the only two in existence, did not have to go the route of Satan, Adam/Eve, Tree of Knowledge etc

They could have done something entirely different that didn't involve the horrors of death/sin/politics

verse?

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

tonychanyt said:
verse?

There is no verse

But that's irrelevant

God could have come up with countless realities that didn't involve sin/Satan/death/Jesus dying

So what exactly is gained by reality he ultimately went with that couldn't have been done with a reality where there was no sin/death/Satan

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
He didn't HAVE to
He and God, being the only two in existence, did not have to go the route of Satan, Adam/Eve, Tree of Knowledge etc
They could have done something entirely different that didn't involve the horrors of death/sin/politics

Hello @nightmares, since I see that you are still pretty new around here, WELCOME TO CF :wave:

As far as your proposition goes, if what you say is true, that there was a better way, that God could have created things differently than He did here, a world w/o pain and suffering that would have remained like the Garden of Eden was before our progenitors chose to sin, then why do you think that He didn't do so?

Thanks

--David

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

Well first of all Adam/Eve didn't choose to sin (because left to their own devices they never ate from the tree). It was a case of entrapment

Secondly I believe that when they did eat from the tree they were taken out of the spirit realm and ended up in the physical dimension of Earth

And lastly I don't know why God decided to create a reality where billions including Jesus would suffer and die instead of doing something else entirely. You'd have to ask him

tonychanyt · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
There is no verse

But that's irrelevant

Let proposition P1 = Scriptural verses are irrelevant in answering the question: Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

True?

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

Yes

I am talking about when there was only God/Jesus and nothing else. No angels, no Satan, no Adam/Eve and no Bible

tonychanyt · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
Yes

I am talking about when there was only God/Jesus and nothing else. No angels, no Satan, no Adam/Eve and no Bible

See Familiarize yourself with the whole Bible by daily reading and follow up there

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
God could have come up with countless realities that didn't involve sin/Satan/death/Jesus dying. So what exactly is gained by reality he ultimately went with that couldn't have been done with a reality where there was no sin/death/Satan

Hello again Nightmares, concerning what you asked in bold above, what comes to mind first and foremost is our ability to make free will choices. It seems that God created us with the ability to choose to love Him, or not. I suppose He could have programed us with a loving nature that would not have allowed us to do otherwise, but love w/o choice isn't love.

--David
p.s. - one last thought, if the Father knew that there was a better way, a way to accomplish all that He has and intends to do for us that did not involve pain, suffering and death, a way that did not require sending His Son here to die that horrible death on the Cross, I have no doubt that He would have chosen that way instead.

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

Yeah I don't understand that

If your biological father allowed you to suffer and die would you love him

nightmares · Aug 11, 2023

tonychanyt said:
See Familiarize yourself with the whole Bible by daily reading and follow up there

Don't need to

There is no explanation in the Bible as to why God decided to create a reality where billions including Jesus died instead of doing something else entirely

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
Well first of all Adam/Eve didn't choose to sin (because left to their own devices they never ate from the tree). It was a case of entrapment

You believe that God forced them to sin, that they, as a result, could not have chosen to do otherwise?

nightmares said:
Secondly I believe that when they did eat from the tree they were taken out of the spirit realm and ended up in the physical dimension of Earth

We live in a physical universe. God formed Adam's body here, from the Earth itself, and then He breathed the breath of life into his newly formed physical body and he became a living being .. e.g. Genesis 2:7.

nightmares said:
And lastly I don't know why God decided to create a reality where billions including Jesus would suffer and die instead of doing something else entirely. You'd have to ask him

As I said above, if there was a better way, He would (obviously) have chosen it, but there was no better way. True, free will, is a messy business, but He apparently wanted beings who weren't programmed (forced) to "love" Him, but freely wanted to instead.

To think otherwise would mean that He is not our loving, heavenly Father, but a monster. The thing is, a monster would never choose to love us in all of the ways that He has and continues to do. He has demonstrated who He really is to us, that He is our loving, heavenly Abba who always wants the very best for us. So, life is what it is. No pain and suffering would, of course, be nice, but it is obviously not possible for us on this side of the grave. The GREAT news is that it awaits us in very short order on the other side, and forevermore :amen:

--David

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
If your biological father allowed you to suffer and die would you love him

If suffering and dying here, during this blip in eternity (of 100 years of less), was the way to live in eternal bliss (w/o pain, suffering and death) in the eternity that lies ahead of us (a trillion quadrillion years and FAR beyond, IOW), then sure, how could I not love him for making a future like that possible for me?

St_Worm2 · Aug 11, 2023

nightmares said:
There is no explanation in the Bible as to why God decided to create a reality where billions including Jesus died instead of doing something else entirely

Sure there is, because that's how God created this reality from the get-go (IOW, He made us "upright" and in His perfect "image" .. e.g. Genesis 1:26-27; Ecclesiastes 7:29).

The only "rub" (if you will) in the design was God's desire to give us free will. Without that, the ability to choose, that is, we would be robots (in essence), but our "reality" would have never included pain/suffering/death.

Unfortunately, that would have also meant that life would have been devoid of true love, something that God, who is love .. e.g. 1 John 4:8, was obviously unwilling to deny us (even though He knew that it, for a VERY short period of time, would involve pain, suffering and death, a difficult reality that He also knew that His Son would have to face one day as well, for our sakes/for the sake of His "bride").

Why did Jesus have to suffer and die?

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