"desecration" of the "holy place"

RandyPNW · Aug 5, 2023

In the Olivet Discourse Jesus indicated armies would come in, surround Jerusalem, and destroy both it and the temple. We get this consistently in all 3 versions, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Matthew and Mark do not go into detail about what the Abomination of Desolation is, but they refer the reader to Dan 9.26-27 where an Abomination of Desolation is named in conjunction with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by "the people of the ruler to come," which seems to refer to a Roman army. Rome was the "ruler to come."

For whatever reason Matthew and Mark did not spell this out in as much detail as Luke did. However, they did describe this "Abomination" as "standing in the holy place," or "where it does not belong." Rome was obviously an "abomination," being that they were a pagan people assuming control over the holy place of the Temple.

My assertion here is that "holy place" can refer to a room in the Temple called "the Holy Place," or it may refer to the entire Temple complex, the whole building and the courtyard, or it may apply to all of Jerusalem, including its environs. The "holy place" is where God has devoted something as His resting spot.

And so, in the Olivet Discourse I see no problem identifying the "holy place" to be Jerusalem, where this abominable pagan army would come and be set, or "stand." It was a siege against a place devoted to be holy. The spiritual condition of the people there was poor, but did not cause the place to be any less dedicated to God or devoted by God to be holy.

Profaning such a holy area was forbidden by God, but something God allowed to happen. God allowed Israel to sin and so profane this holy area. And He allowed pagan Romans to draw near, also profaning the Temple area, to show Israel a graphic example of what they were themselves doing.

It was precisely because Israel was profaning the holy area that God determined to "devote it to destruction," both the city and the Temple. And so, the Scriptures say that God Himself caused His own city and Temple to be "desecrated."

But this was not a new pathway for God. He had demonstrated the same during the Babylonian invasion, and was now repeating things. In fact just as Ezekiel donned the name "Son of Man," indicating God's word to Mankind, so Jesus donned the same name, to indicate that history was repeating itself.

Jesus condemned Israel for their sins, and promised that in one generation, the same one that rejected him, the city and the Temple would fall. So consider the following language where God described this in the past, in particular with respect to the Babylonian invasion...

Isa 47.5 “Sit in silence, go into darkness, queen city of the Babylonians; no more will you be called queen of kingdoms. 6 I was angry with my people and desecrated my inheritance.

Eze 7.22 I will turn my face away from the people, and robbers will desecrate the place I treasure. They will enter it and will defile it.

Eze 23.39 On the very day they sacrificed their children to their idols, they entered my sanctuary and desecrated it. That is what they did in my house.

Eze 24.21 21 Say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to desecrate my sanctuary—the stronghold in which you take pride, the delight of your eyes, the object of your affection. The sons and daughters you left behind will fall by the sword.

Eze 25.1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against the Ammonites and prophesy against them. 3 Say to them, ‘Hear the word of the Sovereign Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because you said “Aha!” over my sanctuary when it was desecrated and over the land of Israel when it was laid waste and over the people of Judah when they went into exile.

Eze 28.By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Dan 11.31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

I believe this last reference, to Dan 11.31, to refer to Antiochus 4, who also was termed an "abomination of desolation." But his act of desolation took place well before Rome violated Jerusalem, the "holy place," And Antiochus did not actually destroy the temple as the Romans did. But both of these "AoDs" are indicative of God's willingness to have his "holy place" violated and desecrated, to make a point to Israel about their own uncleanness.

DavidPT · Aug 5, 2023

RandyPNW said:
I believe this last reference, to Dan 11.31, to refer to Antiochus 4, who also was termed an "abomination of desolation." But his act of desolation took place well before Rome violated Jerusalem, the "holy place," And Antiochus did not actually destroy the temple as the Romans did. But both of these "AoDs" are indicative of God's willingness to have his "holy place" violated and desecrated, to make a point to Israel about their own uncleanness.

Obviously then, since the same events are also recorded in Daniel 12, to apply that to AE4 in Daniel 11 is so apply the following to AE4 in Daniel 12 as well.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Compare with.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Which then would obviously mean that the resurrection event recorded in Daniel 12:2, this was involving the days of A4E rather than an event still in our future. That this resurrection event even preceded Christ's resurrection. Obviously then, to interpret Daniel 11:31 in the manner that you are, which obviously is referring to the same events recorded in Daniel 12:10-11, is to then make utter nonsense out of the resurrection event recorded in Daniel 12:2 since it is meaning at the end of what is Daniel 12:10-11 and Daniel 12:1 are involving, and that Daniel 11:31-35 are involving the same events Daniel 12:10-11 and Daniel 12:1 are involving, thus both Daniel 11:31-35 and Daniel 12:10-11 and Daniel 12:1 are involving the same era of time, not different eras of time altogether.

Maybe the reason I am concluding what I do is because I am not reading into the text what past Commentators and authors of books have already decided what, when, and who, these verses are involving. I'm simply sticking to the text itself, and since Daniel 12:2 can't be involving the days of A4E, then neither can anything in Daniel 12 be involving the days of A4E, nor can Daniel 11:31-35 be involving the days of A4E since ch 12 isn't and that both chapters record the same events. This is basically how I reason Matthew 24:15-21 as well, that since what is recorded in Daniel 12:10-11 and Daniel 12:1 are obviously involving what Matthew 24:15-21 is involving, the latter can't be involving 70 AD since it can't fit Daniel 12 if at the end of these things, a resurrection event occurs. Something that obviously never occurred at the end of 70 AD.

RandyPNW · Aug 5, 2023

DavidPT said:
Obviously then, since the same events are also recorded in Daniel 12, to apply that to AE4 in Daniel 11 is so apply the following to AE4 in Daniel 12 as well.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Compare with.

Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

It's a reasonable question. If one records an actual conversation with some length, there will not always be an unbroken sequence of ideas. There can be a back and forth, a flashback, a prolepsis (a look ahead), a summation, an assumed challenge, etc. This is the case with Dan 11-12.

It is a single account, but it runs as follows. The last several paragraphs of Dan 11 is all about Antiochus 4. The last few verses are a reiteration or a summation of things previously said, to emphasize them.

This takes us to the end of the chapter and to the end of the Greek era, because this is where the Roman era begins. Antiochus 4 is cut short by the Romans and he ultimately falls. The Hebrews come out victorious. But with the Roman era comes the ultimate challenge--Christ will die, and the city of Jerusalem, as well as the sanctuary, will be destroyed. We read that in ch. 9.

So at the point where the Greeks fall and the Romans rise, we begin Israel's greatest period of Tribulation, the Jewish Diaspora of the NT era, which began in 70 AD. It began with the Abomination of Desolation coming to stand around Jerusalem, and ultimately destroyed the sanctuary.

This is where, in Dan 12, we are brought far ahead into the future, to the end of this Great Tribulation era, to the end of the Jewish Diaspora, to see the end of the saints at the coming of the Kingdom. They are raised from the dead and rewarded for their righteousness, whereas all those given to rebellion will be raised and judged accordingly.

Then in ch. 12 Daniel looks back on all of the revelations he was given and inquires about the meaning of the biggest events predicted as coming ahead. He is told in the early verses of ch. 12 about the 3.5 year reign of Antichrist.

But then he has also confirmed to him that a roughly 3.5 year period will be associated with Antiochus 4, as well. This is more directly ahead. The 1290 days of Antiochus' rule is distinct from the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule in Dan 7 and in the book of Revelation.

keras · Aug 5, 2023

RandyPNW said:
The 1290 days of Antiochus' rule is distinct from the 3.5 years of Antichrist's rule in Dan 7 and in the book of Revelatio

Antiochus 4 E had control over the temple for 1150 days, from when he desecrated it to when the Temple was re-dedicated. 167 to 164 BC, as the books of Maccabees inform us.
This fulfilled the Prophecy in Daniel 8:14

Daniels Prophecy of the 1290 and 1335 days, will come after the new Temple, yet to be built in Jerusalem; will be desecrated by another Satanically inspired man, in the end times. 2 Thess 2:4 proves it.

RandyPNW · Aug 6, 2023

keras said:
Antiochus 4 E had control over the temple for 1150 days, from when he desecrated it to when the Temple was re-dedicated. 167 to 164 BC, as the books of Maccabees inform us.
This fulfilled the Prophecy in Daniel 8:14

Daniels Prophecy of the 1290 and 1335 days, will come after the new Temple, yet to be built in Jerusalem; will be desecrated by another Satanically inspired man, in the end times. 2 Thess 2:4 proves it.

We're reading different accounts. In around December of168 BC he began his reign of terror, and he died in mid 165, which means it was about 3.5 years. Payne's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy" surmises that the 1290 days represented the reign of Antiochus 4 during this time.

keras · Aug 6, 2023

RandyPNW said:
We're reading different accounts. In around December of168 BC he began his reign of terror, and he died in mid 165, which means it was about 3.5 years. Payne's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy" surmises that the 1290 days represented the reign of Antiochus 4 during this time.

I admit that I didn't check those dates, sorry.
But it has been proven that the 2300 evenings and mornings = 1150 days, does relate to the period that the 2nd Temple was under the control of A4E.
The 2300 figure certainly does not fit in the end times, despite the weird and wonderful attempts by SDA's and others.

Also, the 1260 days or 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, is reiterated in Revelation. The extra 30 and 75 days as per Daniel 12, will come after the Return, for the Atonement, 30 days and then the re-dedication of the new Temple - 75 days after the Return of Jesus. There is exactly 75 days between the feast of Tabernacles, which means: God with us and the celebration of Hanukkah; Kislev 25; when the 2nd Temple was cleansed and re-dedicated.

Maria Billingsley · Aug 6, 2023

RandyPNW said:
In the Olivet Discourse Jesus indicated armies would come in, surround Jerusalem, and destroy both it and the temple. We get this consistently in all 3 versions, Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Matthew and Mark do not go into detail about what the Abomination of Desolation is, but they refer the reader to Dan 9.26-27 where an Abomination of Desolation is named in conjunction with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by "the people of the ruler to come," which seems to refer to a Roman army. Rome was the "ruler to come."

For whatever reason Matthew and Mark did not spell this out in as much detail as Luke did. However, they did describe this "Abomination" as "standing in the holy place," or "where it does not belong." Rome was obviously an "abomination," being that they were a pagan people assuming control over the holy place of the Temple.

My assertion here is that "holy place" can refer to a room in the Temple called "the Holy Place," or it may refer to the entire Temple complex, the whole building and the courtyard, or it may apply to all of Jerusalem, including its environs. The "holy place" is where God has devoted something as His resting spot.

And so, in the Olivet Discourse I see no problem identifying the "holy place" to be Jerusalem, where this abominable pagan army would come and be set, or "stand." It was a siege against a place devoted to be holy. The spiritual condition of the people there was poor, but did not cause the place to be any less dedicated to God or devoted by God to be holy.

Profaning such a holy area was forbidden by God, but something God allowed to happen. God allowed Israel to sin and so profane this holy area. And He allowed pagan Romans to draw near, also profaning the Temple area, to show Israel a graphic example of what they were themselves doing.

It was precisely because Israel was profaning the holy area that God determined to "devote it to destruction," both the city and the Temple. And so, the Scriptures say that God Himself caused His own city and Temple to be "desecrated."

But this was not a new pathway for God. He had demonstrated the same during the Babylonian invasion, and was now repeating things. In fact just as Ezekiel donned the name "Son of Man," indicating God's word to Mankind, so Jesus donned the same name, to indicate that history was repeating itself.

Jesus condemned Israel for their sins, and promised that in one generation, the same one that rejected him, the city and the Temple would fall. So consider the following language where God described this in the past, in particular with respect to the Babylonian invasion...

Isa 47.5 “Sit in silence, go into darkness, queen city of the Babylonians; no more will you be called queen of kingdoms. 6 I was angry with my people and desecrated my inheritance.

Eze 7.22 I will turn my face away from the people, and robbers will desecrate the place I treasure. They will enter it and will defile it.

Eze 23.39 On the very day they sacrificed their children to their idols, they entered my sanctuary and desecrated it. That is what they did in my house.

Eze 24.21 21 Say to the people of Israel, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am about to desecrate my sanctuary—the stronghold in which you take pride, the delight of your eyes, the object of your affection. The sons and daughters you left behind will fall by the sword.

Eze 25.1 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, set your face against the Ammonites and prophesy against them. 3 Say to them, ‘Hear the word of the Sovereign Lord. This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Because you said “Aha!” over my sanctuary when it was desecrated and over the land of Israel when it was laid waste and over the people of Judah when they went into exile.

Eze 28.By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries. So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.

Dan 11.31 “His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the temple fortress and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation.

I believe this last reference, to Dan 11.31, to refer to Antiochus 4, who also was termed an "abomination of desolation." But his act of desolation took place well before Rome violated Jerusalem, the "holy place," And Antiochus did not actually destroy the temple as the Romans did. But both of these "AoDs" are indicative of God's willingness to have his "holy place" violated and desecrated, to make a point to Israel about their own uncleanness.

The abomination is apostate Israel which caused the desolation and destruction of the Temple. The end of the age of temple sacrifice, 70AD. This has left them desolate . Repentance from unbelief to belief that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is their Messiah will restore the temple which now dwells in the beliver through His Holy Spirit. Blessings.

RandyPNW · Aug 6, 2023

keras said:
I admit that I didn't check those dates, sorry.
But it has been proven that the 2300 evenings and mornings = 1150 days, does relate to the period that the 2nd Temple was under the control of A4E.
The 2300 figure certainly does not fit in the end times, despite the weird and wonderful attempts by SDA's and others.

Also, the 1260 days or 42 months, or 3 1/2 years, is reiterated in Revelation. The extra 30 and 75 days as per Daniel 12, will come after the Return, for the Atonement, 30 days and then the re-dedication of the new Temple - 75 days after the Return of Jesus. There is exactly 75 days between the feast of Tabernacles, which means: God with us and the celebration of Hanukkah; Kislev 25; when the 2nd Temple was cleansed and re-dedicated.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion. Just so you know, there are scholarly, Christian views that are different, and should be considered, as well. I referred to Payne's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy." In there, he explains the "extra 30 days" not as "extra days" at all, but 1290 days being the exact number of days Antiochus" Reign of Terror continued between the time he desecrated the Temple and the time he died.

The extra "45 days" after the 1290 days is explained as the time it took for the news of Antiochus' death to be brought to Israel. There's certainly nothing definitive about this explanation, however.

The "2300 days" is said to be the amount of time starting from the usurpation of the high priest's position to the end of that period, a period of 6.5 years. All of these time periods were specifically and historically related to the problems associated with Antiochus 4. I agree that this time does *not* fit the Antichrist, and I'm not and never have been SDA.

RandyPNW · Aug 6, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
The abomination is apostate Israel which caused the desolation and destruction of the Temple. The end of the age of temple sacrifice, 70AD. This has left them desolate . Repentance from unbelief to belief that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is their Messiah will restore the temple which now dwells in the beliver through His Holy Spirit. Blessings.

That's certainly one interpretation. And you're certainly welcome to submit it. Thanks.

keras · Aug 6, 2023

RandyPNW said:
I referred to Payne's "Encyclopedia of Biblical Prophecy."

I have not seen this book.
But there is no way Payne could be correct in his assertions and interpretations, as Daniel 12:9 says: these Words [of Prophecy] are to be kept secret until the time of the end and then; only a few wise people will understand.

RandyPNW · Aug 6, 2023

keras said:
I have not seen this book.
But there is no way Payne could be correct in his assertions and interpretations, as Daniel 12:9 says: these Words [of Prophecy] are to be kept secret until the time of the end and then; only a few wise people will understand.

Many people read Dan 12.9 as a cryptic "time capsule" to suddenly explode into reality in a final generation. But I don't think Daniel could ever have meant that.

It was typical of a Prophet to say that some prophecies would be better recognized in the time they are fulfilled, with the notion that there is current value in knowing it is coming. So what is the value in knowing a "time capsule" will be dug up in the future? None!

So, the real meaning of such prophecies is to discourage too much analysis, causing us to restrict ourselves to a very general meaning with current application. If we are not to get too caught up in speculations, times, and seasons, then the message is that we need to be presently applying ourselves in a way that is consistent with the moral values present in these prophecies.

Acts 1.7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Many Christians, who have a legitimate interest in Bible Prophecy, still do not fully obey Jesus on this matter. They make prophetic speculation the end-all of their studies, as opposed to the moral lessons present to help us prepare for the future. It isn't a "fear" thing. Rather, it is a "faith" and "encouragement" thing.

I bought Payne's Encyclopedia a long time ago when I lived in CA listening to The Bible Answerman, Walter Martin. Martin recommended the book for those with questions about Bible Prophecy. It's just a source for considering his scholarly views. I'm sure I wouldn't agree with him on everything!

keras · Aug 7, 2023

RandyPNW said:
the moral lessons present to help us prepare for the future.

Why not actually know what God has planned to do?

Prophecy is for Believers 1 Corinthians 14:22b
The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10 Some reasons for this are:

1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:

1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.

Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5

The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isaiah 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.

2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.

Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.

Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of mis-understanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16

3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:

To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.

2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:

Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.

Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.

Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.

Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.

The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is the prime example of a false teaching that has been widely believed.
People just need to properly search the scriptures and see whether or not that theory is scriptural. What it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible, then to not renounce it, is a serious matter and when you stand before God, Revelation 20:11-15, He may ask why you didn't.

RandyPNW · Aug 7, 2023

keras said:
Why not actually know what God has planned to do?

I don't believe God would have us focus on interpreting prophecies like Nostradamus, where the focus is on "crystal ball reading," and trying to predict exactly what will happen in the future. This is "worldly," in my opinion. We all would like to know when something is coming, whether a recession, or a political outcome. But God has the "times" in His hands, and some of the details are distracting us away from our attention to God's word to our hearts.

And so, I believe future prophecies are designed to secure our devotion to God's word today, rather than just in some future scenario. We are to prepare now by getting our hearts right with God and by listening to Him speak to our heart. Predicting the future is not the game. It is aligning us with God's word today so that whatever God says is coming we will be comforted by our own devotion to His word.

Devotion to God's word is not just understanding the future or what is coming. Devotion isn't just knowing when a war is about to erupt. Rather, it is being right with God now so that we support the right causes and so avoid incurring God's wrath.

We can have an unhealthy interest in interpreting details about what is coming. It draws people to God as a fortune teller rather than as our Lord. We need to always stay focused on His lordship so that we don't go beyond what He is saying. And we need to stay balanced by His love so that we don't get lifted up in pride over other Christians, or try to draw men after ourselves and our teachings.

keras · Aug 7, 2023

RandyPNW said:
I don't believe God would have us focus on interpreting prophecies like Nostradamus, where the focus is on "crystal ball reading," and trying to predict exactly what will happen in the future. This is "worldly," in my opinion. We all would like to know when something is coming, whether a recession, or a political outcome. But God has the "times" in His hands, and some of the details are distracting us away from our attention to God's word to our hearts.

And so, I believe future prophecies are designed to secure our devotion to God's word today, rather than just in some future scenario. We are to prepare now by getting our hearts right with God and by listening to Him speak to our heart. Predicting the future is not the game. It is aligning us with God's word today so that whatever God says is coming we will be comforted by our own devotion to His word.

Devotion to God's word is not just understanding the future or what is coming. Devotion isn't just knowing when a war is about to erupt. Rather, it is being right with God now so that we support the right causes and so avoid incurring God's wrath.

We can have an unhealthy interest in interpreting details about what is coming. It draws people to God as a fortune teller rather than as our Lord. We need to always stay focused on His lordship so that we don't go beyond what He is saying. And we need to stay balanced by His love so that we don't get lifted up in pride over other Christians, or try to draw men after ourselves and our teachings.

What a load of blather!
Unhealthy interest? Since when was careful study and a good knowledge of scripture: unhealthy?

The really interesting thing is; that God has given us the detailed and comprehensive story of what He plans to do, some now fulfilled; most yet future. But it is all worded in such a way, that wrong conclusions can be made. And when people do believe in wrong theory's, or in fables as Paul says they will in 2 Timothy 4:3-4, they become locked into those beliefs, as Isaiah 29:0-12 tells us.
A very few will understand God's Plans now, but most must wait until after the soon to happen Sixth Seal world changer. Isaiah 35:4-5, 42:18-20, 29:18 & 24

RandyPNW · Aug 7, 2023

keras said:
What a load of blather!
Unhealthy interest? Since when was careful study and a good knowledge of scripture: unhealthy?

We can turn "who has the prophecy right?" into a war between Christians. That is "unhealthy." We can start defining who the "locust plague" represents, who the "Great harlot" is, what the "3rd Trumpet is," etc. etc. John wasn't even given to tell us what the "7 Thunders" were!

Some turn prophetic interpretation into a game or puzzle, as if the most clever one wins! How worldly! The word of God was designed to effect in us a godliness that is holy and humble. It isn't there to set one up over another as to "who is right," or "who studied the longest!"

But of course, study is good and can be rewarded. But the reward is *not* self-glory. Why you can't respect that I can't fathom?

keras said:
The really interesting thing is; that God has given us the detailed and comprehensive story of what He plans to do...

You are not the "chosen one," brother. Don't try to draw men after yourself and your teaching. It will not end well for you...

keras · Aug 8, 2023

RandyPNW said:
You are not the "chosen one," brother. Don't try to draw men after yourself and your teaching. It will not end well for you..

Sorry for your sensibilities, but I listen to what the Lord says thru His Word.
You have stated several times that you don't know how the future will pan out.
I state that I do know what the Lord has planned for our future. The only way to refute what I post from the Prophetic Word, is by providing other scriptures which tell another story. Which would be anomalous and impossible.

What I can't fathom, is how you think I am 'self glorifying' myself. Do pastors glorify themselves when they teach the scriptures?
Like Ezekiel 2:16-21, I have a responsibility to promote the Bible Prophesies. I do it to the best of my abilities and I strongly suggest that people think about what the Lord is telling us thru His Prophets, and then by me and other promoters of the truths of Bible Prophecy.

RandyPNW · Aug 8, 2023

keras said:
Sorry for your sensibilities, but I listen to what the Lord says thru His Word.
You have stated several times that you don't know how the future will pan out.
I state that I do know what the Lord has planned for our future. The only way to refute what I post from the Prophetic Word, is by providing other scriptures which tell another story. Which would be anomalous and impossible.

What I can't fathom, is how you think I am 'self glorifying' myself. Do pastors glorify themselves when they teach the scriptures?
Like Ezekiel 2:16-21, I have a responsibility to promote the Bible Prophesies. I do it to the best of my abilities and I strongly suggest that people think about what the Lord is telling us thru His Prophets, and then by me and other promoters of the truths of Bible Prophecy.

It just doesn't come across with the right spirit. I don't see the spiritual qualities associated with either the messenger or the message.

I have no personal grudge with you. I feel like you're an old friend. I just am unable to see the value in your regular proclamation of a 6th Seal, mega-magnetic storm or EMP event?

It will certainly be amazing if you're right and such an event takes place in our lifetime. But where is the spiritual value in all that? The threat of major natural disasters has never served to encourage repentance.

I suppose Noah did that, and had to do it, though there was little effect. But I really wasn't there and don't know the circumstances.

It seems that a warning is appropriate, but if it was such an earth-shaking event coming up you'd think more "prophets" would see it? If not, God would certainly not choose just *you* to proclaim it to the world. For one thing, you don't have the reach to connect to all the people that would have to be reached.

But there is no prophetic focus on this one event. The 6th Seal event seems to be tied together with all of the events associated with Christ's Coming. And his Coming seems to be the major focus of all these threats, since he is the Judge. We are to be wary of any death event largely because following death comes judgment. That is the major focus of all these things in my opinion.

keras · Aug 9, 2023

RandyPNW said:
It just doesn't come across with the right spirit. I don't see the spiritual qualities associated with either the messenger or the message.

Any contradiction of peoples beliefs, will always meet with rejection and vilification of the messenger.
My 'spirit' is to warn people of what the Prophets have said will happen. At least some, incl you; will know about the possibility of a massive sun strike, which will depopulate large areas of the world and destroy our modern infrastructure.

RandyPNW said:
I suppose Noah did that, and had to do it, though there was little effect.

The antediluvian people scoffed at Noah, nothing has changed!

RandyPNW said:
The 6th Seal event seems to be tied together with all of the events associated with Christ's Coming.

The Sixth Seal will be the event which commences all the end time things, leading up to the glorious Return of King Jesus. As it is Written in the sequence of Revelation. Shuffling it around, is error and confusion.

Before the Return, exactly 1260 days before; the holy place in the new Temple will be desecrated by the Leader of the One World Govt, formed by the survivors of the Sixth Seal; Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath.
The Christian survivors will be motivated to travel to and live in the holy Land. As Isaiah 35 beautifully describes.

RandyPNW · Aug 9, 2023

keras said:
Any contradiction of peoples beliefs, will always meet with rejection and vilification of the messenger.

Rejecting the message and the messenger is precisely what Jesus asked his Disciples to do when he warned them there would be "false prophets." I am not "vilifying you" when I reject you and your message. To me, it comes across in a manipulative, judgmental manner, and not with conviction. It is just an indulgence in prophetic interpretation with the warning that your interpretation must be obeyed.

I have little problem with your belief that there will be major solar flares or EMP events taking place. They either will or they won't.

What we read in the 6th Seal will take place, whatever it means, symbolically or otherwise. But none of this seems to be asking me to do anything more than commit my life fully to Christ, in view of the fact this world is "passing away." To get all stirred up, focusing on some perceived necessity of interpreting it properly seems like an exercise in "fear-mongering." And that is not the right spirit, in my opinion.

There is a lot of sensationalism associated with prophetic interpretation. That's why I say it's like crystal ball reading. There is the pull towards the "prophet" to find out what is coming next. We don't need "palm readers." We need Christian teaching that leads to holy lives.

keras · Aug 9, 2023

RandyPNW said:
Rejecting the message and the messenger is precisely what Jesus asked his Disciples to do when he warned them there would be "false prophets."

What Jesus told the disciples at that time, had nothing to do with end time events, which we are facing 2000 years later.

I reject your insistence that I should give up promoting the Prophetic Word. Someone needs to present the truths of the Prophetic Word.

"desecration" of the "holy place"

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