Can God ever become mortal?

Neostarwcc · Jul 9, 2023

Ok so I was watching a Sproul teaching series yesterday and RC was talking about Genesis chapter 15 when God made all of his promises to Abraham and Abraham believed God up to a point. He asked God how can he know for sure in verse 8 of Genesis 15. And God's response to him was "bring me a bunch of Animals" and Abraham did and God cut them in two and you know the rest of the story. God swears on the carcasses of the animals and goes in between them basically I cannot swear on anything greater than me. I can't swear on the heavens because I made them or on anything else because God made everything.

So God decides to swear on himself in verses 17 to 18. Sproul was saying that when God swore on himself he said that "if I ever lie to you I give up my diety, I give up my immortal life to become mortal."

This made me wonder CAN God ever lose his diety? Can he ever become mortal if God accidentally told a lie or broke promise?

Now don't get ne wrong, God is good and perfect and would never tell a lie. He hates liars and will one day punish all liars but, my question is can God really lose his diety if he ever committed even one sin? Obviously his diety means that this can never happen but that isn't my question. My question is, can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?

Friedrich Rubinstein · Jul 9, 2023

God swearing by his deity is like you swearing by your humanity. You cannot stop being a human, just like God cannot stop being God, broken promise or not. The reason God swears by anything in the first place is not to put his immortality at risk, but to reassure us weak humans of His good and perfect nature. It's like: "I will do it, because I am GOD!" There is no better reassurance than that.

I think this is supported by Psalm 89:35 where God swears by his holiness. It would make no sense to say that God would suddenly lose his holiness if he lied, because his holiness is part of his nature. Instead, God swearing by his holiness is again meant as an assurance: "Because I am holy, you can rely on my promise."

BobRyan · Jul 9, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Ok so I was watching a Sproul teaching series yesterday and RC was talking about Genesis chapter 15 when God made all of his promises to Abraham and Abraham believed God up to a point. He asked God how can he know for sure in verse 8 of Genesis 15. And God's response to him was "bring me a bunch of Animals" and Abraham did and God cut them in two and you know the rest of the story. God swears on the carcasses of the animals and goes in between them basically I cannot swear on anything greater than me. I can't swear on the heavens because I made them or on anything else because God made everything.

So God decides to swear on himself in verses 17 to 18. Sproul was saying that when God swore on himself he said that "if I ever lie to you I give up my diety, I give up my immortal life to become mortal."

This made me wonder CAN God ever lose his diety? Can he ever become mortal if God accidentally told a lie or broke promise?

Now don't get ne wrong, God is good and perfect and would never tell a lie. He hates liars and will one day punish all liars but, my question is can God really lose his diety if he ever committed even one sin? Obviously his diety means that this can never happen but that isn't my question. My question is, can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?

Titus 1 : 1 Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God’s elect and the acknowledgment of the truth which accords with godliness, 2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

One reason God "Cannot lie" is that He is allknowing and all-powerful. He cannot be surprised or tricked

d taylor · Jul 9, 2023

-

I believe you have chapters mixed up with verses, verses 17 and 18 in chapter 15 do not mention God swearing on Himself

And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

ViaCrucis · Jul 9, 2023

God can't ever stop being God, and He can't ever become mortal.
However, God did, in fact become mortal.

Jesus Christ died on the cross. God became mortal without giving up His immortality; God became man without ceasing to be God.

Such is the great paradox of the Incarnation: He who knew no sin became sin; He who was impassible was made passible; God who could not die, died.

-CryptoLutheran

southwestforests · Jul 9, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
My question is, can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?

Since God by God's nature can not sin the question is illogical.

notworthconsideration · Jul 12, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
So God decides to swear on himself in verses 17 to 18. Sproul was saying that when God swore on himself he said that "if I ever lie to you I give up my diety, I give up my immortal life to become mortal."

Sproul is a philosopher who pretends to be a theologian. He completely made this up- there is no basis of truth to what he said. His statement is actually blasphemous in that he suggested that God could ever be less than God.

Sproul does not speak for God, nor does he speak truthfully about Him.

Mark Quayle · Jul 28, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Ok so I was watching a Sproul teaching series yesterday and RC was talking about Genesis chapter 15 when God made all of his promises to Abraham and Abraham believed God up to a point. He asked God how can he know for sure in verse 8 of Genesis 15. And God's response to him was "bring me a bunch of Animals" and Abraham did and God cut them in two and you know the rest of the story. God swears on the carcasses of the animals and goes in between them basically I cannot swear on anything greater than me. I can't swear on the heavens because I made them or on anything else because God made everything.

So God decides to swear on himself in verses 17 to 18. Sproul was saying that when God swore on himself he said that "if I ever lie to you I give up my diety, I give up my immortal life to become mortal."

This made me wonder CAN God ever lose his diety? Can he ever become mortal if God accidentally told a lie or broke promise?

Now don't get ne wrong, God is good and perfect and would never tell a lie. He hates liars and will one day punish all liars but, my question is can God really lose his diety if he ever committed even one sin? Obviously his diety means that this can never happen but that isn't my question. My question is, can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?

The question —"can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?"— is bogus. It assumes God can lie, and can become less than himself —God. All sin is against God, so how could he sin?

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2023

I think you are understanding that story far too literally and trying to parse out too many details. It's important to remember the Bible has many layers of significance, spanning thousands of years of theological development. And not all of it is laid out nice and neatly.

Mark Quayle · Jul 31, 2023

notworthconsideration said:
Sproul is a philosopher who pretends to be a theologian. He completely made this up- there is no basis of truth to what he said. His statement is actually blasphemous in that he suggested that God could ever be less than God.

Sproul does not speak for God, nor does he speak truthfully about Him.

Sproul did not "suggest that God could ever be less than God." What he was saying is that if God was ever to lie, it would be the same as to become less than God —which is, of course, impossible. You are pretty obviously taking what Sproul said out of context.

Neostarwcc · Aug 1, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
Sproul did not "suggest that God could ever be less than God." What he was saying is that if God was ever to lie, it would be the same as to become less than God —which is, of course, impossible. You are pretty obviously taking what Sproul said out of context.

Probably not because it's impossible for God to tell a lie or sin because he's completely Holy. But, Sproul did make me wonder IF God had sinned would he become mortal and be subject to death like humans are?

Like, had Jesus sinned as a fully human and fully divine entity (he had the choice and was tempted to do so by the devil but overcame temptation) not only would he have not been able to pay for the sins of his elect but he probably would have been struck down by God for disobedience or sin. So while it's absurd to think of God as a sinner if he did sin he probably would become mortal and would cease to be God.

God luckily will never sin it's just not in his DNA. It's absurd to call God a sinner or to think of him as one. It just is a brainteaser because God is all powerful, all knowing, and everything inbetween.

FireDragon76 · Aug 1, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Probably not because it's impossible for God to tell a lie or sin because he's completely Holy. But, Sproul did make me wonder IF God had sinned would he become mortal and be subject to death like humans are?

Like, had Jesus sinned as a fully human and fully divine entity (he had the choice and was tempted to do so by the devil but overcame temptation) not only would he have not been able to pay for the sins of his elect but he probably would have been struck down by God for disobedience or sin. So while it's absurd to think of God as a sinner if he did sin he probably would become mortal and would cease to be God.

God luckily will never sin it's just not in his DNA. It's absurd to call God a sinner or to think of him as one. It just is a brainteaser because God is all powerful, all knowing, and everything inbetween.

It's a moot question.

For God, there is no difference between "God cannot sin" and "God will not sin", because God is something like the actus purus of Aquinas. God's will and God's being are united perfectly.

Neostarwcc · Aug 1, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
It's a moot question.

For God, there is no difference between "God cannot sin" and "God will not sin", because God is something like the actus purus of Aquinas. God's will and God's being are united perfectly.

Yeah I suppose it's a moot question. Because God was only swearing by those things to prove to Abraham he was good and will keep his promise to him.

FireDragon76 · Aug 1, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Yeah I suppose it's a moot question. Because God was only swearing by those things to prove to Abraham he was good and will keep his promise to him.

It's more than mere proof. It was a sacramental sign, something Abraham, coming from a pagan culture that was familiar with such things, could understand. The difference is that God provided the sacrificial sign. In pagan cultures, people had to provide that themselves.

Mark Quayle · Aug 1, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Probably not because it's impossible for God to tell a lie or sin because he's completely Holy. But, Sproul did make me wonder IF God had sinned would he become mortal and be subject to death like humans are?

I know Sproul's thinking pretty well. He was saying it is impossible for God to lie. But one proof that God cannot lie is because he would have to become less than God to do so.

Neostarwcc said:
Like, had Jesus sinned as a fully human and fully divine entity (he had the choice and was tempted to do so by the devil but overcame temptation) not only would he have not been able to pay for the sins of his elect but he probably would have been struck down by God for disobedience or sin. So while it's absurd to think of God as a sinner if he did sin he probably would become mortal and would cease to be God.

Here I see the typical power of God. Jesus proved he was God, by going through what none of us have done, yet without giving in to temptation. Here I see the remarkable way of God to accomplish his work by the weakest ways —Jesus did not give in, as a man, not because 'since he was God it is impossible for him to do so', but because he lived in dependence on his father. There's no flash-bang, but the slow cook we all must undergo. Mundane.

Neostarwcc said:
God luckily will never sin it's just not in his DNA. It's absurd to call God a sinner or to think of him as one. It just is a brainteaser because God is all powerful, all knowing, and everything inbetween.

"Luck"? Haha! just pickin' at ya!

It's more than just not in his DNA, but concerning Jesus that is a pretty accurate pun. There is quite a bit of reason to believe that Adam's sin nature is passed down in the DNA.

But it is also by the very definition of sin, that God will never sin. Sin is opposition to God. Rebellion against God. It is self-contradictory to say, then, that God can sin. He is not responsible to live up to a set of laws, or a scale of good vs bad, external to himself, as though it is default self-existent fact.

The Liturgist · Aug 2, 2023

Neostarwcc said:
Ok so I was watching a Sproul teaching series yesterday and RC was talking about Genesis chapter 15 when God made all of his promises to Abraham and Abraham believed God up to a point. He asked God how can he know for sure in verse 8 of Genesis 15. And God's response to him was "bring me a bunch of Animals" and Abraham did and God cut them in two and you know the rest of the story. God swears on the carcasses of the animals and goes in between them basically I cannot swear on anything greater than me. I can't swear on the heavens because I made them or on anything else because God made everything.

So God decides to swear on himself in verses 17 to 18. Sproul was saying that when God swore on himself he said that "if I ever lie to you I give up my diety, I give up my immortal life to become mortal."

This made me wonder CAN God ever lose his diety? Can he ever become mortal if God accidentally told a lie or broke promise?

Now don't get ne wrong, God is good and perfect and would never tell a lie. He hates liars and will one day punish all liars but, my question is can God really lose his diety if he ever committed even one sin? Obviously his diety means that this can never happen but that isn't my question. My question is, can God ever become mortal IF he committed a sin?

@Via Crucis was correct, as I often find myself saying, in that God did become mortal and was crucified for us, by means of God the Son putting on our human nature and restoring it to perfection through His redemptive incarnation, baptism, transfiguration, passion, Resurrection and Ascension. As St. Athanasius wrote, “God became man so that man could become god.” And this is the same St. Athanasius that defended the faith of the Nicene Creed which is part of the Statement of Faith for this website in his defense of Christianity at the Council of Nicaea against Arianism, and who also is responsible for defining and promulgating the 27-book New Testament canon that everyone agrees on; it was he who settled the Patristic debate about whether certain books, especially the Apocalypse of St. John (also known as Revelation) should be included.

The Liturgist · Aug 2, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
There is quite a bit of reason to believe that Adam's sin nature is passed down in the DNA.

And what would that be? At first glance I am remindad of the idea of St. Augustine’s suggestion that original sin is transmitted via concupiscience in the process of reproduction, which the Orthodox reject along with Pelagianism in favor of the ancestral sin explanation of St. John Cassian.

That said I do agree with much of your post, and I cannot say that original sin does not affect our DNA, in that for example we are vulnerable to disease, and because humans have experienced certain viruses our DNA includes genetic material from those viruses for purposes of immunity which it would lack had it not been for the fall making us susceptible to disease. However, that is not the same thing as “Adam’s sin nature.”

Mark Quayle · Aug 2, 2023

The Liturgist said:
@Via Crucis was correct, as I often find myself saying, in that God did become mortal and was crucified for us, by means of God the Son putting on our human nature and restoring it to perfection through His redemptive incarnation, baptism, transfiguration, passion, Resurrection and Ascension. As St. Athanasius wrote, “God became man so that man could become god.” And this is the same St. Athanasius that defended the faith of the Nicene Creed which is part of the Statement of Faith for this website in his defense of Christianity at the Council of Nicaea against Arianism, and who also is responsible for defining and promulgating the 27-book New Testament canon that everyone agrees on; it was he who settled the Patristic debate about whether certain books, especially the Apocalypse of St. John (also known as Revelation) should be included.

I don't think you are saying, then, that God died on the cross? Are you saying that God ceased to be living God at that point? God cannot die. To put it into our frame of reference, Christ's Godness did not die.

Mark Quayle · Aug 2, 2023

The Liturgist said:
And what would that be? At first glance I am remindad of the idea of St. Augustine’s suggestion that original sin is transmitted via concupiscience in the process of reproduction, which the Orthodox reject along with Pelagianism in favor of the ancestral sin explanation of St. John Cassian.

That said I do agree with much of your post, and I cannot say that original sin does not affect our DNA, in that for example we are vulnerable to disease, and because humans have experienced certain viruses our DNA includes genetic material from those viruses for purposes of immunity which it would lack had it not been for the fall making us susceptible to disease. However, that is not the same thing as “Adam’s sin nature.”

With me, it remains speculative, but when I see that Adam's sin guilt is imputed to us, as quite a different thing from our sin nature, to me it seems inherited, physically. There is a lot to concur with the notion in Scriptures many references to how sin controls us, what sin is, how we are tempted, etc.

For example, the fact that Mary was a virgin, and Jesus was born sinless, is different from the rest of us born of a human father. Perhaps the 'sin virus' is passed down by the male of the species? Who knows?

FireDragon76 · Aug 2, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
I don't think you are saying, then, that God died on the cross? Are you saying that God ceased to be living God at that point? God cannot die. To put it into our frame of reference, Christ's Godness did not die.

The traditional Nicene/Chalcedonian orthodoxy does say that God died on the Cross, not in terms of divine nature, but in terms of a divine person that assumed human nature.

Can God ever become mortal?

We are saved purely by the work and grace of God.

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